Am I emotionally abusive?

[RdHrshyKss]

your opinion is simply the same as the rest of mainstream America's, which is "leave if it isn't going your way".

i think it's more like "leave if it isn't working, hasn't been for a long time, and no matter what you've done to try to change things, nothing has changed"

neither you nor your wife are happy...i think everyone is just saying that there is no point in continuing to make yourself miserable.

[Incognito]

So the metaphor is more appropriate if you said "It's like stepping on someone's foot and then feeling emotionally hurt because they complained that you almost broke their toe when you are clearly crippled, cannot control your bodily functions, and just punched yourself in the face three times while trying to apologize to them for stepping on their foot."


Perhaps I missed it, so apologies, but... why exactly is counseling not an option?

Perhaps that would have applied more to peppercherry, since she seems to have some sort of psychological block to overcome regarding sex. My wife has no such block. Anyway my insurance doesn't cover marriage counseling. If I were to pay out of pocket the lowest hourly rate around me is $120.00. That is too much money to pay for someone's opinion. Which brings me to the other reason.... counseling relies heavily on the counselor's opinion and personal bias. If you are sick and see a doctor they will prescribe certain drugs or therapies specific to whatever ails you. There is no set method to overcoming relationship problems, and therefore the counselor can only give trial and error advice with the added "bonus" that there will be opinion and personal bias sprinkled in. $120.00 per hour for opinionated "advice" that is trial and error at best? Um, no thanks.

[Incognito]

eh, except that stepping on someone's toe doesn't really equate to sex. Sex is something that is supposed to benefit both parties...so the way you are comparing is like saying that your wife should feel like it's her obligation to have sex with you whether she wants to or not. yes, i agree that sex is an extremely important facet of a healthy relationship, and without it, the relationship is pretty much doomed. but when it comes to obligation...telling your wife as such will only turn her off from wanting to have it even more. sex shouldn't be a chore, it should be something that both people want to do.

I felt it was fitting given the cause and effect situation that was going on. It makes no sense to do something hurtful to someone and then complain that you are hurt because they brought up the fact that they are hurt. That is when you have to step back and say "well who hurt who first?". Whomever did so first has no right to "be hurt" that their wrong action was brought up. Only a victim would allow himself/herself to be hurt and stay silent about it.

Beyond that I certainly don't think sex is obligatory, but I think that I've covered that before.

[vertical_sky]

Perhaps that would have applied more to peppercherry, since she seems to have some sort of psychological block to overcome regarding sex. My wife has no such block. Anyway my insurance doesn't cover marriage counseling. If I were to pay out of pocket the lowest hourly rate around me is $120.00. That is too much money to pay for someone's opinion. Which brings me to the other reason.... counseling relies heavily on the counselor's opinion and personal bias. If you are sick and see a doctor they will prescribe certain drugs or therapies specific to whatever ails you. There is no set method to overcoming relationship problems, and therefore the counselor can only give trial and error advice with the added "bonus" that there will be opinion and personal bias sprinkled in. $120.00 per hour for opinionated "advice" that is trial and error at best? Um, no thanks.

You don't have to quote price at me, I actually posted a thread in the Personal Development part of the forum about alternatives to counseling. So believe me, I know money is tight.

But oh man, Incog.... ya seem like a decent guy, but right now I kinda want to smack you upside the head.

1) Maybe your insurance doesn't pay for marriage counseling, but how about individual counseling? For yourself, you, alone? Does HER insurance (if she has any) cover any kind of therapy?

2) Your line about doctors prescribing pills... man oh man. You do realize that even the pills the doctors prescribe are based on their opinion? Perhaps their opinion is backed up by research and medical trials (though so are psychologists...) but doctors don't say "Oh you have A, do B." They diagnose you as "You might possibly A, which means we should try B, C and D." If it was as easy as "you're sick, take some pills" we wouldn't freaking need doctors, we'd just need pharmacists. Even medical science isn't an exact science... Doctors can do everything by the book, and the patient can still die.

3) Yeah, maybe psychologists have some personal bias and opinions... but that bias and opinion may actually HELP you. You don't think maybe seeing a therapist who specializes in sexual dysfunction and has probably dealt with HUNDREDS of men whose wives won't sleep with them might have a SLIGHTLY better insight into it than you? Your opinion that they couldn't possibly know better than you (despite them having years of extensive training and experience IN THIS EXACT AREA) is not only shooting yourself in the foot, but it's daaaaaaamn arrogant.

4) Um, well, you know your marriage better than me, obviously, as I am a stranger on the Internet, but... your wife not having a sexual block? You've complained in previous posts about you and your wife not having sex, or not having the sex that satisfies you, or not having it often enough. Guess that sure sounds like a block to me....

5) Finally, geez, dude. You're probably hurting and in a difficult place right now, and forums sure are great for venting, but you won't divorce her, you won't go to counseling, you'll "maybe" consider changing... This is all starting to sound like you refuse to do anything at all, and somehow just expect it to magically function and your wife to make you happy without you lifting a finger. And that's a pretty dickish attitude.

[peppercherry]

"Perhaps that would have applied more to peppercherry, since she seems to have some sort of psychological block to overcome regarding sex. My wife has no such block."

Why doesn't your wife have sex with you?

My husband is generally very happy with our marriage, sex is only one part of a much bigger picture. No need to feel sorry for him.

[Take2]

As much as I hate being wrong, or missing some part of 'the big picture', perhaps you are right.... In certain aspects I have left, but because I haven't left physically or financially I consider myself having not left yet. Perhaps we are both right? You say that marriage is a sh*t or get off the pot sort of thing and you say the moral high road is doing it right or not doing it at all. I respect your opinion, and can even see (if only slightly) your point, but your opinion is simply the same as the rest of mainstream America's, which is "leave if it isn't going your way".

Nope. My opinion is that once you promise "for better or worse," you don't leave at all, ever. And I think it is lying to call yourself not leaving when you have totally checked out emotionally. I personally spent a year trying to fix a marriage that had some issues while my ex simply stepped inside himself and checked out. I thought we were making progress because he at least wasn't angry anymore and I attempted to help us move past that to true intimacy and trust and sharing. But it was a fool's errand because he was long gone and just didn't have the balls to say so. I think quitting on a marriage is a crap thing to do, but I think quitting on a marriage while pretending you haven't is even worse. I know that isn't your intent, it wasn't my ex's intent either, but it is the end result. I have nothing against you personally, but that is my opinion on the situation you are describing.

[Incognito]

You don't have to quote price at me, I actually posted a thread in the Personal Development part of the forum about alternatives to counseling. So believe me, I know money is tight.

But oh man, Incog.... ya seem like a decent guy, but right now I kinda want to smack you upside the head.

1) Maybe your insurance doesn't pay for marriage counseling, but how about individual counseling? For yourself, you, alone? Does HER insurance (if she has any) cover any kind of therapy?

2) Your line about doctors prescribing pills... man oh man. You do realize that even the pills the doctors prescribe are based on their opinion? Perhaps their opinion is backed up by research and medical trials (though so are psychologists...) but doctors don't say "Oh you have A, do B." They diagnose you as "You might possibly A, which means we should try B, C and D." If it was as easy as "you're sick, take some pills" we wouldn't freaking need doctors, we'd just need pharmacists. Even medical science isn't an exact science... Doctors can do everything by the book, and the patient can still die.

3) Yeah, maybe psychologists have some personal bias and opinions... but that bias and opinion may actually HELP you. You don't think maybe seeing a therapist who specializes in sexual dysfunction and has probably dealt with HUNDREDS of men whose wives won't sleep with them might have a SLIGHTLY better insight into it than you? Your opinion that they couldn't possibly know better than you (despite them having years of extensive training and experience IN THIS EXACT AREA) is not only shooting yourself in the foot, but it's daaaaaaamn arrogant.

4) Um, well, you know your marriage better than me, obviously, as I am a stranger on the Internet, but... your wife not having a sexual block? You've complained in previous posts about you and your wife not having sex, or not having the sex that satisfies you, or not having it often enough. Guess that sure sounds like a block to me....

5) Finally, geez, dude. You're probably hurting and in a difficult place right now, and forums sure are great for venting, but you won't divorce her, you won't go to counseling, you'll "maybe" consider changing... This is all starting to sound like you refuse to do anything at all, and somehow just expect it to magically function and your wife to make you happy without you lifting a finger. And that's a pretty dickish attitude.

Well smack away, oh mighty smacker.... LOL

1. I checked with the insurance company and the only type of mental health/counseling that they cover is post traumatic.
2. I see your point about my doctors vs counselors argument, but counseling is still way more subjective than being a doctor no matter how you slice it.
3. I wasn't implying that my opinion is better than a counselors, that would be quite arrogant. I am saying that if I am to pay $120.00 per hour I'd better be getting something better than an opinion and a "try that and come back in a week to pay me $120.00 again". Also just because a counselor has seen hundreds of people with xyz problem has no bearing on how good he/she is. If a doctor has seen hundreds of patients but only 10% of them were cured without having to visit a hospital or see another doctor I'd say that he sucked. I certainly wouldn't marvel at the number of people that he treated and determine that he was who I needed to see.
4. Ok, writer's block is a condition in which the writer cannot come up with something to write about. Peppercherry's condition, as described by her, prevented her from wanting sex even though she "wanted to want to". Both cases there was something "in the way" to prevent something from happening. My wife simply claims to not want it and not think about it.
5. My company is switching insurances this year, so I'll see what is covered and not covered again and possibly revisit counseling if it will cost me less. Any adult knows that nothing "magically" happens, but when my past efforts to "do something" didn't yield results I went back to square one. Thank you for the insult with your rebuttals because it underscores perfectly the fact that people get angry when frustrated. You did while putting together the picture of what I must be like at home and how horrible I must make things, and I get angry when I try to be caring and try to rekindle that emotional connection only to be met with anger at something stupid or no being met halfway in the effort department. Maybe you should meet my brother. Then tell me who the dick is.

[BackUpOrGetStng]

Do everyone a favor and buy a pistol from a local pawn shop and just blow your ****ing brains out. You're vows were only "until death do you part", right, none of this "now, and forevermore" type bullshit? Shoot yourself, jump off a building, stab yourself in the neck, hang yourself; whatever you choose will be better than living your shitty life, that's only going to get shittier. You've got a retort to every piece of advice, stop wasting everyone's time here and get busy living, or get busy dying.

[Incognito]

Nope. My opinion is that once you promise "for better or worse," you don't leave at all, ever. And I think it is lying to call yourself not leaving when you have totally checked out emotionally. I personally spent a year trying to fix a marriage that had some issues while my ex simply stepped inside himself and checked out. I thought we were making progress because he at least wasn't angry anymore and I attempted to help us move past that to true intimacy and trust and sharing. But it was a fool's errand because he was long gone and just didn't have the balls to say so. I think quitting on a marriage is a crap thing to do, but I think quitting on a marriage while pretending you haven't is even worse. I know that isn't your intent, it wasn't my ex's intent either, but it is the end result. I have nothing against you personally, but that is my opinion on the situation you are describing.

Ok, Take2, I'll make this short and sweet.... I think you are projecting your anger at your ex onto me and my situation. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't. That is all. And, yes, I am speaking slowly and with my jaw clenched.

[Incognito]

Do everyone a favor and buy a pistol from a local pawn shop and just blow your ****ing brains out. You're vows were only "until death do you part", right, none of this "now, and forevermore" type bullshit? Shoot yourself, jump off a building, stab yourself in the neck, hang yourself; whatever you choose will be better than living your shitty life, that's only going to get shittier. You've got a retort to every piece of advice, stop wasting everyone's time here and get busy living, or get busy dying.

Ahhh, Neo, I'm glad you've shown yourself again. You just can't help yourself can you? Should I still address you as "Neo"? Should I be addressing you as "spoonandfork" perhaps? Maybe I should simply address you as "banned" like you probably will be very soon you bastard.

[Take2]

Umm, OK. Actually, my ex and I get along pretty darn well. He agrees with me that pretending to be there after he checked out emotionally was not a cool move. We disagree about whether it could have been put back together with some effort on both of our parts and some counseling, but we agree that the place where we were when he finally admitted he was done was not a tenable place to be for any length of time.

I am sorry you are losing your temper, but I am not personally upset at all, and I am giving you my calm and considered opinion. I use my own situation as an illustration, but my opinion of your situation is based entirely on how you have described it here. You admit that you have checked out, but then claim credit for sticking with the marriage. I think that is BS, I would have thought it was BS before my ex left, I would have thought it was BS before I even met my ex and I will think it is BS 10 years from now. If you are honor bound to stay in the marriage, then you are honor bound to stay completely in the marriage. If you have given yourself leave to step out of the marriage part-way, you might as well own up to it and leave entirely.

[BackUpOrGetStng]

Brilliantly put Take2, now I can't wait for this moron's deflection.

I don't know who Neo or spoonandfork are, but I do know that I'm a network engineer with access to multiple domains from this machine, so I'll let you figure out what I'm getting at, Incognito.

[vertical_sky]

Any adult knows that nothing "magically" happens, but when my past efforts to "do something" didn't yield results I went back to square one. Thank you for the insult with your rebuttals because it underscores perfectly the fact that people get angry when frustrated. You did while putting together the picture of what I must be like at home and how horrible I must make things, and I get angry when I try to be caring and try to rekindle that emotional connection only to be met with anger at something stupid or no being met halfway in the effort department. Maybe you should meet my brother. Then tell me who the dick is.

1) This is a rule of psychology: there is no cure. THERE IS NO CURE. The emotional and mental capacity of humans is not in a state of "fixed"/"broken." So no therapist is ever going to "cure" you. The purpose of therapy is to work with a trained professional who can give you coping mechanisms, different strategies to try, someone to hear you out who is unbiased. The point of therapy is not to "cure" you, but to give you more effective ways to communicate with the world and yourself. If you are looking to be "cured," then therapy is NEVER going to work for you.

2) Um, sure sounds like your wife has a sexual block. Maybe it's a sexual block she won't even admit to herself, but stating "I have no interest in sex ever" is NOT healthy. It's pretty common for women who say they never want it to ACTUALLY want it, but it's too painful/daunting/humiliating/what have you to even think about it, so they shut down. Sounds like your wife has just shut down, and that IS a block.

3) Any adult also knows that doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results is the definition of insanity. You say yourself in your posts that your wife asks you to do things, like sit with her on the couch or hold her hand, and you refuse, then you turn around and claim you're tried to rekindle the emotional connection. It seems that you're rekindling it with only YOUR feelings in mind, reaching out only when YOU feel like it, and instead of thinking maybe you should try a different approach, you get frustrated and turn in ward again, and it becomes this horrible cycle. So you're doing the same things over and over again.

4) I've already acknowledged I'm some stranger on the Internet. I have no idea what you're like at home. My perspective is coming ONLY from your words and my interpretation of them, not some God perspective, so if you're somehow expecting "the unbiased truth" from an advice forum... Well good luck with that. And where exactly do I insult you? By saying your behavior is kind of dickish?

IT IS KIND OF DICKISH. You can be a good person who still exhibits some dickish behavior. And the behavior you're exhibiting, is to ME, dickish. What EXACTLY are you looking for? Somebody to call your wife a bitch and tell you how right and justified you are, and how noble it is you stay in a marriage with a person you apparently hate?

You have three choices. Change. Leave. Shut the hell up and accept what your marriage is.

[Incognito]

Umm, OK. Actually, my ex and I get along pretty darn well. He agrees with me that pretending to be there after he checked out emotionally was not a cool move. We disagree about whether it could have been put back together with some effort on both of our parts and some counseling, but we agree that the place where we were when he finally admitted he was done was not a tenable place to be for any length of time.

I am sorry you are losing your temper, but I am not personally upset at all, and I am giving you my calm and considered opinion. I use my own situation as an illustration, but my opinion of your situation is based entirely on how you have described it here. You admit that you have checked out, but then claim credit for sticking with the marriage. I think that is BS, I would have thought it was BS before my ex left, I would have thought it was BS before I even met my ex and I will think it is BS 10 years from now. If you are honor bound to stay in the marriage, then you are honor bound to stay completely in the marriage. If you have given yourself leave to step out of the marriage part-way, you might as well own up to it and leave entirely.

Ok, I suppose this is the flaw in communicating by text. I was upset at your post because I took it a certain way and in a certain tone (which was obviously not the way you meant it). I am sorry for jumping to conclusions, but the fact that you went into your situation without key details like the fact that you two got along well and the fact that he finally admitted to being "done" (actually I thought you said that he didn't have the balls to admit that?) led me to where I was. If you're not upset, then I won't be.

As for the rest of what you said I cannot come up with a reasonable argument to the contrary. Checking out is checking out no matter what level it is on. That being said, however, still doesn't dismiss the fact that neither one of us has committed adultery. So I'm still at square one.

[Incognito]

Brilliantly put Take2, now I can't wait for this moron's deflection.

I don't know who Neo or spoonandfork are, but I do know that I'm a network engineer with access to multiple domains from this machine, so I'll let you figure out what I'm getting at, Incognito.

I already know what you're getting at Neo. I'll stick to calling you "Neo" since this was your better known name. Anyway Neo, I'm quite aware that you reentered LF under different names and from different servers. I could care less what imaginative backstory you come up with to justify your getting back on to LF after being banned numerous times. Each and every time you unequivocally f*ck up by ranting in someone's thread about how they should die, or should kill themselves when your opinion isn't eaten up like a banana split. You did it before and got banned, you did it here and will hopefully get banned, and you will positively do it again in the future..... and get banned. One day you'll either get tired of being banned and post like you've got some sense, or you'll run out of IP addresses. There are only a few people who post in the manner that you do, and so far the others have either stopped posting in a careless manner or never came back after being banned. You're the only one who persists Neo.