Michael Moore...Sicko (

[misombra]

i wish i could outsource myself.

[IndiReloaded]

now i'm not suggesting that we know far, far more than you guys about this subject. well no, i am suggesting that.

Not me. I've lived with the Canadian system all my life. And I lived in the US for 8 years, had to pay for health insurance, AND I worked in a high-profile Boston hospital (& had my son in one) for 4 years. Plus I got to listen to all the 'system rants' from the MD-reseachers (who were also clinicians) when I was a lab bitch for all those years.

I am well able to express an opinion that directly compares the two systems, at least how it was as of a few years ago. I have a pretty good idea of the problems (and good points, there are some) with HMOs. When you compare quality of service (the standard of care in Canada is just as good as the US) versus cost, the Canadian system (despite its problems) is still better for the general population who can't afford to pay out of pocket for service. I haven't even seen Sicko yet, but if this is what MM is concluding, I agree.

I will say that, for high-end treatment, the big US research institutions are superior. If someone I loved got a rare cancer or brain disease that required specialized treatment or surgery, I know exactly where I would go, and its nowhere near here.

[vashti]

I don't like HMOs. I greatly prefer PPOs. Perhaps unfairly, I equate the quality of care in a socialized system to be the equivalent of an HMO.

[IndiReloaded]

I don't like HMOs. I greatly prefer PPOs. Perhaps unfairly, I equate the quality of care in a socialized system to be the equivalent of an HMO.

In Canada, anyway, you aren't limited to who you see like we were when we were on Harvard-Pilgrim. No copay here either (tho I think there should be--its abused here).

One thing I liked more was that my son had direct access to a pediatrician, here, its a GP unless you have a special problem.

PPOs weren't an option for us, interestingly.

[vashti]

I was thinking more in terms of wait lists and the need for referrrals to see a specialist. Even as it is, I resent that I have to drive 45 minutes one way to my daughter's neurologist to have him do a two minute exam and tell me we need to schedule another EEG (different day, of course) when that is exactly what I told them I wanted when I first called in. If I had another hoop to jump through before getting her the care she needs, I would feel positively homicidal.

[IndiReloaded]

I was thinking more in terms of wait lists and the need for referrrals to see a specialist.

Oh yes, THAT part is the same here in Canada. You need a referral (or an extended health plan) to get covered for 'extra services'. But that didn't happen with our HMO, strangely. But might that have been b/c of our close association with a research hospital; we had facilities like medical imagining right on campus? So maybe my experience of US healthcare isn't as typical as I'm thinking.

[vashti]

I can't speak for elsewhere, but here in California, if you are insured by HMO, you have to be referred out to a specialist, and very often you have to fight in order to be referred. There are some sort of financial incentives involved in NOT referring patients, or so I've been taught.

[squirrley]

I spoke to a friend whose from Cuba. Michael Moore had made it sound glammy to live in Cuba and how great everything was there. Had to check it out. Today she comes in, she doesnt speak english but my BF helped with the convo. I asked her if Cuba is so great why is she here with her family? She said Cuba is horrible. She was thrown in a hole for 3 days for making pizza and selling it. There is no money there, although the govt gives you an alloted amount of food per month and free health care, you just cant survive. She's glad to be here in the States. I wont get into the debates above I dont have any info to site, Im still learning about it. But it gets me because we do spend so much money in other countries and on so much other bs, I just cant imagine were in the position were in right now. I dont like the fact illegal immigrants get free health care.

[Gigabitch]

Oh, my God. He glamorized living in Cuba? Wtf? How does he explain all those people on rafts trying to make it to Florida?

[Mish]

the poor do get health insurance. you must've conveniently missed that.

You mean these people?

About one in five working American families can't afford basic needs, and many scrape to get by on insufficient income and government aid, policy researchers conclude in a report (.pdf file) released today.

Many of these workers earn too much to qualify for "work supports" such as Medicaid and food stamps, while their employer-provided health insurance doesn't cover enough of their basic medical costs, according to the report by the Center for Economic and Policy Research and the Center for Social Policy at the University of Massachusetts.

[Mish]

I guess all those uninsured patients I see are a figment of my imagination.

And no, Mish - I didn't see another link. You keep editing your posts after I comment on them, and I can't be bothered to keep looking for them.

No, those uninsured patients are a figment of your conscience that places lower taxes on the scale as more important than tens of millions of people who could be covered universally. If there was a universal health insurance in your country you wouldn't be subjected to the torment of seeing the uninsured everywhere anymore.

Here is the Census link for you again. By the way, I didn't edit that post before you commented on it.

There is a breakdown of the uninsured. [url]http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/007419.html[/url]

[Mish]

I actually think the U.S. ranks fifth or sixth in terms of per capita.

Maybe I'm giving too much credit to the uninsured to think that they can find a job. I live in an area where there are more jobs than there are people to fill them, and yes, they are tough jobs for the most part.

It just burns me up when I see someone come into work and only stay for a day saying, "Maybe I won't get as much money, but welfare's better than this." These, along with applicants from the state employment commission who apply saying, "I don't want this job at all, but I need to apply to keep my check."

So in place of those unwilling to work, businesses have hired illegal immigrants, who have recently been ousted to their home countries. What solution are these businesses left with? Switching to automated processes, requiring about 1/20 the manpower.

Eventually this area will see less jobs for the unskilled, less income for the government, but more expenditures because of the number of people now unable to find jobs/afford necessities.

Businesses get hit hard in the U.S., I'm wondering how many more will have to move or outsource before there is some reform.

~Sphinx

I understand what you are trying to say Sphinx and I too feel bad that some people take advantage of the system. But please understand that these people don't make up the majority. For every one who abuses the system there are ten who are genuinely willing to work hard for what they earn.

However on the subject of not wanting to work, I've seen a lot of people in the offices filling up office positions who get a lot of money, but still don't do any work. They are rich, but they couldn't care less about working and they don't get fired they just continue filling up the positions because they have good social skills orsometimes for no reason what so ever. Rich or poor it doesn't really matter, there are people from both sides of the fence who are inherently lazy. As far as businesses suffering I think that they might be suffering even more from the lazy rich than the lazy poor.

[vashti]

You mean these people?

About one in five working American families can't afford basic needs, and many scrape to get by on insufficient income and government aid, policy researchers conclude in a report (.pdf file) released today.

Many of these workers earn too much to qualify for "work supports" such as Medicaid and food stamps, while their employer-provided health insurance doesn't cover enough of their basic medical costs, according to the report by the Center for Economic and Policy Research and the Center for Social Policy at the University of Massachusetts.

It sounds to me like a good argument for 1 in 5 families practicing family planning. Also, please note that "many" is not an actual number. It is a subjective amount, and again, they DO get medical care if it is an emergency. And again, you do not take into account the number of illegal immigrants who are included in the uninsured.

[Mish]

It sounds to me like a good argument for 1 in 5 families practicing family planning.

Is this why you favour lower taxes to universal health care? You think these people actually deserve it?

Also, please note that "many" is not an actual number.

Sorry Vash. I forgot you need to be reminded every single time. The number in the article was 41 million.

and again, they DO get medical care if it is an emergency.

That's if the hospital management decides to be altruistic and run down the hospital by offering freebies. And what happens if they decide to not?

And again, you do not take into account the number of illegal immigrants who are included in the uninsured.

And how many illigal immigrants are there in US? 41 million?

Okay Vash, let's be crazy and say 50% of those people are illigals. What about the 20 million hard working US citizents who are not as blessed as other Americans with money. What about them? According to you do they deserve this as well?

[squirrley]

Vash if you dont mind me asking what is your daughter being treated for? I cant imagine the crap youre going through with Dr's. I feel for you trust me! Goodluck with whatever it is, you'll be in my prayers!