Michael Moore...Sicko (

[vashti]

Thanks, squirrley! She has epilepsy, and the meds she WAS taking ended up screwing up her ovaries and hormones, so we took her off. Things were okay for about 6 months, but now she thinks she may be having absence seizures again, hence the need for the EEG. Also, Michael Moore lost a LOT of credibility with that whole Cuban thing. Too bad so many people don't realize how bad the standard of living is in Cuba, because that bit in the movie was absolutely ridiculous.

Mish - If you look back at my first post, you will see that I said our system needs fixing. I am unwilling to pretend that socialized health care will solve all our problems because, again, we have a HUGE number of illegal immigrants that tax our system. (I really don't think you comprehend what an astronomical problem this is.) So, say we DO institute universal coverage... are we supposed to turn away our illegal immigrants needing emergency care because they aren't part of the universal plan? So we will have raised our taxes, and our hospitals will STILL have uninsured patients to deal with, and in very significant numbers. We need another plan. I don't believe in throwing good money after bad, so I do not favor raising my taxes.

As for the number of illegal immigrants, estimates range from 11.5 to 20 million individuals or more.
[url]http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0516/p01s02-ussc.html[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States[/url]


From your article, "About 41 million people in working families can't afford such basic necessities as health care and housing, according to the report....and many scrape to get by on insufficient income and government aid".

41 million people are NOT without health care. As many as half are undocumented workers, and of those who are left, "many" get government aid.

[Mish]

Thanks, squirrley! She has epilepsy, and the meds she WAS taking ended up screwing up her ovaries and hormones, so we took her off. Things were okay for about 6 months, but now she thinks she may be having absence seizures again, hence the need for the EEG.

That doesn't sound too good. I hope your daughter gets better Vash.

Also, Michael Moore lost a LOT of crdibility with that whole Cuban thing. Too bad so many people don't realize how bad the standard of living is in Cuba, because that bit in the movie was absolutely ridiculous.

I think that whole Cuba thing was just a joke. MM does comedy, maybe this joke was in poor taste. He just wanted to compare Cuba's Health care to US because they both seat on a similar level according to world ranking. I think part of the reason why MM has many opponents is because of his sense of humour (which can be a good and a bad thing).

Mish - If you look back at my first post, you will see that I said our system needs fixing. I am unwilling to pretend that socialized health care will solve all our problems because, again, we have a HUGE number of illegal immigrants that tax our system. (I really don't think you comprehend what an astronomical problem this is.)

It wouldn't solve all of the problems, but it will provide more funding to the hospitals and make the health system fairer for people living in US. Don't you think any improvement in this is a good thing? Also, if taxes are an issue maybe this is a good time to re-evaluate where the tax dollars of US citizents are going to? Maybe some tax spending could be juggled around so that no additional tax is required to provide this? Maybe the money currently being spent on millitary or other things could be moved to Health care? Wouldn't that be better for everyone?

So, say we DO institute universal coverage... are we supposed to turn away our illegal imigrants needing emergency care because they aren't part of the universal plan? So we will have raised our taxes, and our hospitals will STILL have uninsured patients to deal with, and in very significant numbers.

But at least the only uninsured will be the illigal immigrants, while ALL US citizents will be taken care of unlike today. You will reduce the number of uninsured by more than 50% and provide hospitals with much needed funding. Wouldn't that be a good development, progress comapred to current situation? You can't solve complicated problems all in one go, but if this cuts the problem by more than in half shouldn't this be the direction to move to?

We need another plan. I don't believe in throwing good money after bad, so I do not favor raising my taxes.

Well what kind of a plan do you have in mind? How would you provide 41+ million people (even if this figure includs both US citizents and illegals) with an accesible health insurance whilst also making sure the hospitals can cope? If you reject solution that cuts the problem by more than half, what is your solution which is better?

As for the number of illegal immigrants, estimates range from 11.5 to 20 million individuals or more.
[url]http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0516/p01s02-ussc.html[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States[/url]


From your article, "About 41 million people in working families can't afford such basic necessities as health care and housing, according to the report....and many scrape to get by on insufficient income and government aid".

41 million people are NOT without healthcare. As many as half are undocumented workers, and of those who are left, "many" get government aid.

By the way the census bureau figure for the uninsured was at a higher number at 46.6 million. Since this information is provided by the census bureau i believe this is a number without the illegals?

# The number of people with health insurance coverage increased by 1.4 million to 247.3 million between 2004 and 2005, and the number without such coverage rose by 1.3 million to 46.6 million (from 15.6 percent in 2004 to 15.9 percent in 2005).

# Between 2004 and 2005, people covered by employment-based health insurance (174.8 million) declined from 59.8 percent to 59.5 percent.

(Just in case you've lost the link again [url]http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/007419.html[/url])

In any case, I don't disagree that illegal immigrants in US pose a problem. But it doesn't mean that their presence should be an excuse for not pursuing a solution.

[vashti]

I think if the problem were as easy to fix as you think it is, we would have already done it.

Personally, I think employers should have to provide health insurance for their employees.

[Mish]

I think if the problem were as easy to fix as you think it is, we would have already done it.

Personally, I think employers should have to provide health insurance for their employees.

I don't think it's easy. Just because you know something will work, it doesn't mean you won't have to go through a wall of opposition (Even if it's something good).

It wasn't easy to introduce universal health care in Australia, even though majority now acknowledges that it was the right thing to do. Even recently, it wasn't easy to reverse the unfair workplace changes brought by previous Government. But with enough effort the good had won in the end. I think if you believe in something, you have to keep trying.

[misombra]

You mean these people?

About one in five working American families can't afford basic needs, and many scrape to get by on insufficient income and government aid, policy researchers conclude in a report (.pdf file) released today.

Many of these workers earn too much to qualify for "work supports" such as Medicaid and food stamps, while their employer-provided health insurance doesn't cover enough of their basic medical costs, according to the report by the Center for Economic and Policy Research and the Center for Social Policy at the University of Massachusetts.

these people have officially fallen through the cracks. there should be coverage for those people. however i don't want to pay for it.

those people should try for better paying jobs. go to school and get a degree. strive for a better life. i did! i grew up hella poor in the freakin warzone in some dingy apartment on food stamps, etc... and i can afford it because i worked for something better. i work with people who have the most health problems and the least ability to work, and they get highly sufficient medical services. everything is paid for. isn't that nice? so just to reiterate: we have a sort of socialized health insurance system.

[Mish]

these people have officially fallen through the cracks.

All 46 Million of them?

there should be coverage for those people. however i don't want to pay for it.

What if everyone pays together?

those people should try for better paying jobs.

What if there are no jobs for them? Imagine 46 million people suddenly flood the job market looking for a higher paying job? Who will provide that many jobs to them? And on the other hand, who will do the unrewarding crappy jobs that these people are doing now?

go to school and get a degree. strive for a better life. i did! i grew up hella poor in the freakin warzone in some dingy apartment on food stamps, etc... and i can afford it because i worked for something better. i work with people who have the most health problems and the least ability to work, and they get highly sufficient medical services. everything is paid for. isn't that nice?

You could be an exception. Maybe you grew up poor, but you are more adoptable or more intelligent or just all together have better genes than majority of poor people who can't seem to climb out of their situation. Maybe on some level you were more resilent or had accquired better skills than them and thus you were able succeed. Should these people suffer unlike you now because you turned out to have better genes?

so just to reiterate: we have a sort of socialized health insurance system.

You do have a socialized health care of sorts which looks at a number of vulnerable people. But it doesn't look after those hard working people who work jobs which pay little, but don't provide them with health insurance. Universal healthcare could solve that particular problem.

[misombra]

oh man i have a hard time replying to split up stuff like that.

having the right genes has nothing to do with anything. there are people with not so great genes in higher positions than me. in fact that is mostly the case.

i do better because i wanted better, i believe i deserve better, and i got off my ass and did something about it. i worked and studied and did what i needed to do. i have the same genes as anybody. anybody could do it.

you know, here where i live there are so many crack heads that go to the emergency room to get an IV and maybe some morphine in that IV bag. i see approximately 10 of them every time i go to the emergency room.

(vash, have you had a rotation in the ER?)

anyway, i would not like to pay for that. sorry crackheads, i just don't want to. one of the sad things about our system is that some guy who gave up on life because he got started on crack or heroine could probably get that before an uninsured pregnant woman could get prenatal care.

but then there's the issue of poor people reproducing themselves. that is a whooooooole other issue.

anyway, i don't disagree that our system needs to change. (read my first post). but why not just listen for a second. you have an argumentative tone and nobody is trying to argue with you. if you really want to know about the american health care system, why not just ask people who are involved with it on all angles?


instead of relying on what some fat, pathetic guy with an obvious bias and agenda has to say about it try and listen to all sides of the story.

[vashti]

I grew up poor, too misombra, and I also don't want to pay for everyone else's health care. I made it out of poverty, and so did all my siblings. Many of my friends did, too. No one paid my way.

Hey, mish, did you ever consider that handing things over to people may actually diminish their drive to succeed?

EDIT - sombra, the hospitals here actually have signs on the E.R. doors that state they are "narcotic-free zones" in an effort to keep the drug seekers away. Of course, it doesn't work (and of course, it isn't true). Those freakin' crackheads are a security risk because they are known to attack nurses who won't give them drugs.

[Mish]

having the right genes has nothing to do with anything. there are people with not so great genes in higher positions than me. in fact that is mostly the case.

i do better because i wanted better, i believe i deserve better, and i got off my ass and did something about it. i worked and studied and did what i needed to do. i have the same genes as anybody. anybody could do it.

Nobody has the same genes as anybody. Anybody's genes are different. Some people have genes which make them more alert, some people have genes which make them more patient, some people have genes which make them more irritable, some people have genes which make them more persisten/stubborn (e.g. me)

You have a genetic make up which makes you persistent and resilent. You worked hard to get where you are partly because of it. Additionaly you might have had access to people or skills that gave you additional boost in getting where you are that others may not have had. Maybe there was an element of luck there as well, maybe you were at the right place at the right time and secured a position that you otherwise may not have. People are different, circumstances are different, job availabilities are different. Not everyone can just get up and go from poor to doing okay, some people just don't have the right genes/tools/circumstances.

you know, here where i live there are so many crack heads that go to the emergency room to get an IV and maybe some morphine in that IV bag. i see approximately 10 of them every time i go to the emergency room.

(vash, have you had a rotation in the ER?)

anyway, i would not like to pay for that. sorry crackheads, i just don't want to. one of the sad things about our system is that some guy who gave up on life because he got started on crack or heroine could probably get that before an uninsured pregnant woman could get prenatal care.

Well support universal health care then, so that uninsured pregnant woman becomes an insured one and gets in before the crack head. Isn't that what you would want?

but then there's the issue of poor people reproducing themselves. that is a whooooooole other issue.

Well whats the problem? You grew up poor and you were reproduced. Then you found a way to do better for yourself. What's wrong with that?

anyway, i don't disagree that our system needs to change. (read my first post). but why not just listen for a second. you have an argumentative tone and nobody is trying to argue with you. if you really want to know about the american health care system, why not just ask people who are involved with it on all angles?

instead of relying on what some fat, pathetic guy with an obvious bias and agenda has to say about it try and listen to all sides of the story.

I do listen and talk and ask people to get a better clarity of this from all different angles. If I didn't I certainly wouldn't be here debating on this issue. What you think that I base all my opinions on MM's film? MM was a beacon who showed that there is a problem (and there is one). I did research to find out how truthful his claims were and I found facts that supported some of his material. Look at my posts. I've only mentioned MM in one instance, the rest of the material I based my conclusion on was from various other sources.

[Mish]

I grew up poor, too misombra, and I also don't want to pay for everyone else's health care. I made it out of poverty, and so did all my siblings. Many of my friends did, too. No one paid my way.

You could have had the same element of luck/genes/circumstance involved that made you get out of the situation you were in. But in the end you made it out, you no longer have to struggle like others who are now in the same situation you were once in. Imagine, there's a girl there somewhere who is the you 15/20 years ago, going through the same amount of hardship. Wouldn't you want to help her in the same way you once wished someone would help you? Don't you wish to become the change you would like to see?

Hey, mish, did you ever consider that handing things over to people may actually diminish their drive to succeed?

It all depends on what kind of things are handed out. If I see a starving person begging for food, I certainly don't believe that giving that person food would diminish their drive to succeed. If I see a sick person begging for care, I certainly don't think that providing that person with care would diminish their drive to succeed.

[misombra]

You mean these people?

About one in five working American families can't afford basic needs, and many scrape to get by on insufficient income and government aid, policy researchers conclude in a report (.pdf file) released today.

Many of these workers earn too much to qualify for "work supports" such as Medicaid and food stamps, while their employer-provided health insurance doesn't cover enough of their basic medical costs, according to the report by the Center for Economic and Policy Research and the Center for Social Policy at the University of Massachusetts.

Nobody has the same genes as anybody. Anybody's genes are different. Some people have genes which make them more alert, some people have genes which make them more patient, some people have genes which make them more irritable, some people have genes which make them more persisten/stubborn (e.g. me)

i have 4 words for you: survival of the fittest.

no but seriously, how much more can we pound this out. would it save time and energy if i just said, "you're right?"

okay mish, you're right. you're always right. you've enlightened me and everybody here. i mean, our whole entire world perspective has changed, simply because of you, mish.

[vashti]

Even shorter: natural selection.

Hey mish - how much time have you spent worrying about your own country's health care problems?

[misombra]

no kidding.

there you go. do some homework then come talk to us.

[url]http://www.aihw.gov.au/[/url]

here was some interesting reading for me about how the australian government pays much less for health care for indigenous people.

[url]http://www.aihw.gov.au/expenditure/indigenous.cfm[/url]

[vashti]

Australia is hemorrhaging nurses, and he spends all his time worried about the U.S.... Don't you know that the nurses are the ones who actually take care of the ill, mish? You have your own health care crisis to worry about.

[Mish]

Even shorter: natural selection.

Hey mish - how much time have you spent worrying about your own country's health care problems?

A lot more time than I worry about US. Like I said before, we have problems as well.

This thread though is not about Australia, it's about US, MM's film and the state of US health care.