The God Illusion?

[IndiReloaded]

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/freethinker.php

Of course it provides choice, Mish. But, if you object to 'atheism' (which can refer to a fixed belief as staunch as a fundamentalist), then perhaps you'd prefer 'Freethinker':

A person who forms opinions about religion on the basis of reason, independently of tradition, authority, or established belief.

A child growing up in a freethinking household isn't persecuted for choosing to believe in God or have faith. The converse, however, is often the case.

[Mish]

Of course it provides choice, Mish.

Telling someone that they are free to believe what they like, but if they do then they are stupid is not providing a real choice Indi

then perhaps you'd prefer 'Freethinker':

A person who forms opinions about religion on the basis of reason, independently of tradition, authority, or established belief.

A child growing up in a freethinking household isn't persecuted for choosing to believe in God or have faith. The converse, however, is often the case.

I've always agreed with that^

[Gribble]

Telling someone they are free to believe what they like but they'll burn forever and ever if they don't believe the right thing is not providing a choice.

I can't respect someone who believes in Santa Claus. I don't see the difference between believing in Santa Claus or a god. Actually, that's not true. I find it much more likely that Santa is real.

I'm not taking anyone's choice away. I'm not threatening anyone with violence or pain. However, I don't want someone who is overtly religious to have power over me. I will mock you and laugh at you if you bring your god nonsense to my door. I won't try to frighten or intimidate you into giving up those beliefs, however.

I'm sorry but someone has got to stand up and laugh at these people. If I'm the only one laughing so be it. I'm not going to pretend religion is okay. I'm not going to pretend there's nothing wrong with grown adults believing in what amounts to Harry Potter hokus pokus. It is both ludicrous and disgusting that someone from the first world would believe in primitive campfire tales.

[IndiReloaded]

Telling someone that they are free to believe what they like, but if they do then they are stupid is not providing a real choice Indi

Yes, it is, Mish.

It is stupid for people to smoke. The data linking it to cancer and other health problems is indisputable. Same as how a belief in a God for which there is NO proof is completely irrational.

But, if someone chooses to smoke, then fine. Same as if someone wants to believe in god/smurfs/purple pocket hippos. Whatever, people believe all kinds of crazy stuff.

But, they are NOT welcome to blow their smoke in *my* face. If they do, they can expect to hear all the reasons it is unreasonable/stupid.

[Mish]

Yes, it is, Mish.

It is stupid for people to smoke. The data linking it to cancer and other health problems is indisputable. Same as how a belief in a God for which there is NO proof is completely irrational.

But, if someone chooses to smoke, then fine. Same as if someone wants to believe in god/smurfs/purple pocket hippos. Whatever, people believe all kinds of crazy stuff.

I'm talking about Atheism in general. It's either you don't believe in anything outside a certain square or you are stupid, there is no in between. If you are an atheist you see people who believe as idiots (just like you would people who smoke) and you will not accept them as smart or as you say critically thinking. It doesn't matter if they bother you or not. So just like Religion, Atheism does not allow real choice. I don't think there's a need to deny the obvious.

[NeoSeminole]

Mishanya says:

"I'm talking about Atheism in general. It's either you don't believe in anything outside a certain square or you are stupid, there is no in between. If you are an atheist you see people who believe as idiots (just like you would people who smoke) and you will not accept them as smart or as you say critically thinking. It doesn't matter if they bother you or not. So just like Religion, Atheism does not allow real choice. I don't think there's a need to deny the obvious."

you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. First, define "real choice" as opposed to "choice" since nobody here knows wtf you're talking about. Second, atheism is the lack of belief in a god(s). How atheists view believers is independent of atheism. Third, some choices happen to be more right than others. You can choose to call a circle a square. We might think you're an idiot but that doesn't mean you don't have a choice.

[Only-virgins]

Shut the **** up, this shit is ****ing annoying now. You people either prove god or shut the **** up. But what is that you say? I have to disprove him? I have to do that no more or less than I have to disprove a invisible car floating in my room...oh what? that is silly? oh yea...cause invisible gods creating shit out of nothing farts is absolutely not silly at all. If you want to believe in fake not proven crap than go ahead like a five year old but who the hell are you gonna convince? seriously, go make yourself a sandwich or something...you will have better luck with that. I no longer have the need to convince theist pea brains to see the truth, I couldn't care less anymore. I just simply laugh at them as if they are kids. So intelligent people just get on the bandwagon, just point and laugh for the reason that all of them are getting lately so angry and frustrated is that the world is finally changing. The God Illusion and God is not great...best sellers few years in a row...go figure...welcome back to sanity world...welcome back.

[Mish]

First, define "real choice" as opposed to "choice" since nobody here knows wtf you're talking about.

By the definitions provided so far one can easily say that Religion also provides choice simply because Atheists are allowed peaceful existence without forceful conversion. I don't think allowance on existence is an indication of choice, indication of choice is lack of bias inside of a thought system.


And to your personal insults, stfu asswipe

[Gribble]

The asswipe is you! There is no god and your father smelled of elderberries.

[Mish]

Your father was a woman

[NeoSeminole]

Mishanya says:

"By the definitions provided so far one can easily say that Religion also provides choice simply because Atheists are allowed peaceful existence without forceful conversion. I don't think allowance on existence is an indication of choice, indication of choice is lack of bias inside of a thought system."

so you concede that atheism has nothing to do with calling people idiots and that atheism is a more logical choice than belief in a deity? Ahh, gotcha ;-)

also, your definition of choice = fail. Choice simply means having options. However, let's entertain your post for argument's sake. There's always bias in favor of the more right answer. For example, on tests you are influenced to make the right choice b/c it affects your score. Does this mean you don't have a choice when taking tests? No.

"And to your personal insults, stfu asswipe"

what insults?

[Mish]

so you concede that atheism has nothing to do with calling people idiots and that atheism is a more logical choice than belief in a deity? Ahh, gotcha ;-)

That's not what I said at all

Choice simply means having options. However, let's entertain your post for argument's sake. There's always bias in favor of the more right answer. For example, on tests you are influenced to make the right choice b/c it affects your score. Does this mean you don't have a choice when taking tests? No.

We are not talking about exams, we are talking about personal choices. What you think is "right" for others may not be right for them at all. And yes, you are disallowing people options by insulting them and by indicating that their choices somehow make them inferior to you as people. You may say that you are justified in doing so (like Indi did with smokers), but that's an entirely different debate.

"And to your personal insults, stfu asswipe"

what insults?

We might think you're an idiot but that doesn't mean you don't have a choice.

Unless you didn't mean it as an insult. In which case I apologize.

[NeoSeminole]

Mishanya says:

"That's not what I said at all"

silence can speak louder than words.

"We are not talking about exams, we are talking about personal choices. What you think is "right" for others may not be right for them at all. And yes, you are disallowing people options by insulting them and by indicating that their choices somehow make them inferior to you as people. You may say that you are justified in doing so (like Indi did with smokers), but that's an entirely different debate."

way to miss the crux of my post. Your definition of "choice" is wrong. If you wish to argue the merits of your definition, then provide an example of a lack of bias inside of a thought system.

"Unless you didn't mean it as an insult. In which case I apologize."

I said we might think you're an idiot if you call a circle a square.

[Mish]

way to miss the crux of my post. Your definition of "choice" is wrong. If you wish to argue the merits of your definition, then provide an example of a lack of bias inside of a thought system.

I think it's pretty obvious that Atheism doesn't allow belief choice without any further explanation. To point out obvious facts you can't be a Christian and also be an Atheist. You can't follow any faith and also be an Atheist. There is no belief choice in Atheism. What's there to explain?

Wait a second. Maybe there is a miscommunication here. Is someone trying to argue that Atheism is all inclusive and is open to choices of beliefs?

If not, then what are arguing about?

[NeoSeminole]

Mishanya says:

"I think it's pretty obvious that Atheism doesn't allow belief choice without any further explanation. To point out obvious facts you can't be a Christian and also be an Atheist. You can't follow any faith and also be an Atheist. There is no belief choice in Atheism. What's there to explain?"

no shit. A coin can't land both heads and tails at the same time either. What's your point?

"Wait a second. Maybe there is a miscommunication here. Is someone trying to argue that Atheism is all inclusive and is open to choices of beliefs?"

no

"If not, then what are arguing about?"

edit: you associated atheism with calling believers idiots and claimed atheism doesn't allow choice. I contend that atheism has nothing to do with looking down on others and it's a more logical choice than belief in a deity. A person has the choice to be either a believer or non-believer, but one of those choices is more right than the other.