State of Arizona Passes Law to Check Immigration Status

[SirWagginston]

Where did I say they shouldn't be given legal status? In fact, I have no problem with that. What I am saying is that hating illegals and wanting them all deported is silly. As they are currently, they're not hurting, but actually benefiting the middle class.

[Junket]

Where did I say they shouldn't be given legal status? In fact, I have no problem with that. What I am saying is that hating illegals and wanting them all deported is silly. As they are currently, they're not hurting, but actually benefiting the middle class.

So I suppose where you're from middle class is composed entirely of white collar workers.

That's not how it works down here.

Once upon a time, being a framer, sheetrocker, roofer, painter, or bricklayer used to provide a liveable wage.

[SirWagginston]

True. My hometown was pretty much a model for the rest of America. Our public education system is so well funded (among the very best in the country) that if you want to get an education and a white collar job, you can. Even in my AP and other advanced classes, I (white boy) was the visible minority, because our schools provide enough services to make that possible. So it was seen as normal.

I think the rest of the country is living in the past. The root of your economic woes is not the existence or status of immigrants. The real solution is to start focusing on education, and teach kids to achieve their greatest potential. Tell your politicians to drop their wasteful spending and build a system that fosters real modernization. Once you live in a community where anyone has the option to succeed, you'll realize that nobody should want to mow lawns and paint for a living. We view anybody who wants that as wasted talent.

Here's some food for thought. I study physics and computer science, so one of the things on my lofty to-do list is to create automated workers that can do the menial work for us. I can foresee that starting to happen in a couple industries in my lifetime. These robots could be rented out or sold, and you wouldn't have to pay them. What are you gonna do then, man? Ban robots? You're fighting a losing battle against the future. The most productive human muscle is the brain, and it's cultivation of the mind that will continue to carry our world into higher and higher standards of living. Every year, our expanding service sector raises the standards of how trained the average worker should be, and I think that's a good thing. It's because of this fact that every generation can afford more luxuries and free time than the last.

[Junket]

True. My hometown was pretty much a model for the rest of America. Our public education system is so well funded (among the very best in the country) that if you want to get an education and a white collar job, you can. Even in my AP and other advanced classes, I (white boy) was the visible minority, because our schools provide enough services to make that possible. So it was seen as normal.

I think the rest of the country is living in the past. The root of your economic woes is not the existence or status of immigrants. The real solution is to start focusing on education, and teach kids to achieve their greatest potential. Tell your politicians to drop their wasteful spending and build a system that fosters real modernization. Once you live in a community where anyone has the option to succeed, you'll realize that nobody should want to mow lawns and paint for a living. We view anybody who wants that as wasted talent.

Here's some food for thought. I study physics and computer science, so one of the things on my lofty to-do list is to create automated workers that can do the menial work for us. I can foresee that starting to happen in a couple industries in my lifetime. These robots could be rented out or sold, and you wouldn't have to pay them. What are you gonna do then, man? Ban robots? You're fighting a losing battle against the future. The most productive human muscle is the brain, and it's cultivation of the mind that will continue to carry our world into higher and higher standards of living. Every year, our expanding service sector raises the standards of how trained the average worker should be, and I think that's a good thing. It's because of this fact that every generation can afford more luxuries and free time than the last.

I don't have any other words for you besides: You are a f*cking idiot.

[Sonrisa]

Fras, there are other ways to release your sexual frustrations

[Lipp]

That sounds like an invitation.

[SirWagginston]

Yes, me and the entire population of Arlington, Virginia are all idiots. Highly educated and well-paid idiots leading the nation in college enrollment rate. That makes sense.

Maybe before you demonize people like me, you should stop to consider that we are paying for these programs. We tolerate illegal immigrants, sure, but then do you know what we do? We let their kids go to school there. Then we pay for them to have breakfast and lunch there, for free, because we know they might not be able to afford it, and that could impact their education. Then we set up extensive outreach programs to help them assimilate into our culture, and pay for their school materials in case they can't afford them. It now constitutes more than 50% of the local budget, and guess what? None of us say, "Hey, why should we pay for these illegal's kids? They're not paying taxes like us." We don't bitch and moan, because it's the right thing to do. Then those kids grow up and become limousine liberals like us, and pay for the children of the next generation of immigrants.

Truthfully, the clear majority in my hometown support immigration reform, but the unfortunate fact is that we answer to Richmond and Washington D.C., and we're outnumbered. If Northern Virginia were to secede from the US, or even just Virginia, I would probably move back there, but that's not happening.

[IndiReloaded]

I don't have any other words for you besides: You are a f*cking idiot.

LOL, I agree with Fras' sentiment. No robot could perform the kind of woodwork we just had installed in our home.

Sir Wag (the dog?), yours is a recipe for disaster. The purpose of education isn't to create more specialists, its to promote thinking. Sadly, it tends to do the former better than the latter. There is already too much of a disconnect b/t so-called 'educated' specialists who use all sorts of tools they have no clue how they actually work. If you doubt this, ask the average person to fix a simple computer problem (or a toaster for that matter). Even very intelligent folks such as scientists generally have no clue how the devices they use actually work. What's even more sad is that, when asked about it, they have even less interest in finding out. We are going in the wrong direction.

I know a couple physicists who are useless at fixing drywall or a toilet. Heaven knows how they manage to use their more specialized research equipment. I suppose superficially they do alright but I'd guess that they would flail when pressed to demonstrate a deeper understanding of the limitations of their conclusions b/c of a deep understanding of how their apparatus works. But only someone smarter and more knowledgable than them would find them out. Bullshit all the way down the line, and that's how the big mistakes get propagated, kids.

[IndiReloaded]

Yes, me and the entire population of Arlington, Virginia are all idiots. Highly educated and well-paid idiots leading the nation in college enrollment rate. That makes sense.

For the most part, they are. You can beat Fras with your creds, but I'm probably where you want to be in about 10 years. I have the fancy terminal degree, spent nearly a decade in Boston surrounded by the intellectual elite of America, yadda yadda. Even in that rarified environment, only a very few were more than a big intellectual yawn. Those schools, more than any other, have a business model to fill. Don't be naive to think they are really interested in producing thinkers and pushing society forward. On the contrary, they produce some of the most intractable thinkers I've ever met, with enough power to block those with truly interesting ideas b/c they happen to have been taught how to confound those who can't argue effectively against bullshit.

The high incomes do tend to support the lower ones, that much is true. But I think that is a duty that wealthy ppl are obligated to carry. Especially those who became wealthy b/c of the structure of western society. Payback by paying forward.

[SirWagginston]

I see no reason why our education system should promote either only specialists or only thinkers. A good education system does both. My school stressed the value of math and science, but also required us to take languages and liberal arts for graduation. In fact, the majority of AP classes were on liberal studies. I took AP Calculus, but I also took AP History, AP Government, and AP English 10 and 11.

I don't even understand how "specialist" came into discussion. You don't need to specialize to be a white-collar worker. One thing we were taught is that your major doesn't really matter most of the time. Most employers aren't looking to see what classes you took on what subjects. They want to know that you have a degree, because that proves you know a thing or two about how the world works. The only time your major will be important is if you are aiming for an upper-middle class position in an advanced field, which was never seen as normal.

[IndiReloaded]

I see no reason why our education system should promote either only specialists or only thinkers.

You see no reason? So what is the difference b/t a specialist and a thinker?

[SirWagginston]

"Thinker," as we're using it, describes someone generally educated, who cares not just about results, but about the way things actually work. "Specialist," as we're using it, describes someone taught the arbitrary rules of a specific tool or system, who cares mostly about results. The two types collide sometimes, such as in physics, where theoretical types like me make fun of the lab rats (or "researchers," as they like to be called) who mostly like to play with the toys we had to invent for them.

A good education system recognizes the fact that we need both types of people. Some people simply aren't built to deeply understand the way things work. If we insist on trying to make them, they will fail, and possibly fall into poverty. Those people need classes that use repetition and memorization to gain valuable skills that will earn them a good standard of living. I'll never be able to have an intellectually stimulating conversation with them, but that's okay, because there's more to life than that. On the other hand, people who show potential to understand concepts also need to be in classes that are more creative and hands-on, because those are the people who will create the systems learned by specialists of the future. They still, however, might need to learn some specialties, depending on where their interests lie. For example: I am fascinated by the concept of artificial intelligence and the logic of how it works. You say robots could never replace people, but they have already designed programs that can do preliminary medical diagnostics, and as we speak they are developing programs that can create and carry out experiments. No amount of understanding of how logic gates and loops work will matter, however, if I don't learn the programming language.

[Lipp]

LOL, I agree with Fras' sentiment. No robot could perform the kind of woodwork we just had installed in our home.

Maybe something halfway between the two.

[IndiReloaded]

"Thinker," as we're using it, describes someone generally educated, who cares not just about results, but about the way things actually work. "Specialist," as we're using it, describes someone taught the arbitrary rules of a specific tool or system, who cares mostly about results. The two types collide sometimes, such as in physics, where theoretical types like me make fun of the lab rats (or "researchers," as they like to be called) who mostly like to play with the toys we had to invent for them.

Okay, I can work with these definitions. You are basically saying the innovation comes from the intersection of the types, which I agree with.

A good education system recognizes the fact that we need both types of people.

It may recognize it, but it generally does a crap job of the former. "Thinkers" are almost produced through a negative selection process in our present educational system. Which runs us into trouble on the innovation side of things as described above.

It is for this reason that I think emphasis on the "thinking" and less on the specialization is in order. Its simply less of a concern. I know too many ppl, myself included, who find it relatively trivial to learn the details of a specialization provided a solid thinking foundation is available to build upon. While I think its true that there are some with more aptitude for it, the physics guys at Triumf possibly being such an example, I don't think its quite as hardwired as you imply. I think there are far more "thinkers" out there in young minds than our education system knows how to help develop.

You say robots could never replace people, but they have already designed programs that can do preliminary medical diagnostics, and as we speak they are developing programs that can create and carry out experiments. No amount of understanding of how logic gates and loops work will matter, however, if I don't learn the programming language.

I didn't say this^, and your statement is meaningless as posted. Under what context? I simply said that there is no robot that could perform the detailed craftsmanship we just had installed in our home. Craftsmanship is quite different from a program like WebMD, especially given medicos are basically glorified car mechanics, IMO. If a comp can diagnose a car problem, a human is a logical next step. But given a choice b/t a skilled human surgeon or a robot clipping my aneurysm, I choose the human every time. Anything that requires rapid, multivariable computation based on a large set of unrefined inputs, especially ones that can change in an instant, will have me choosing the human every time.

When you can show me a comp that can outfly a human pilot trying to shoot it down, lets revisit this.

[Junket]

Yes, me and the entire population of Arlington, Virginia are all idiots. Highly educated and well-paid idiots leading the nation in college enrollment rate. That makes sense.

You first need to concede that all of my statements regarding immigration before you blew my mind with your ignorance, are indeed correct.

Secondly, I have never talked to anyone that has anything against immigrants. My father was an immigrant, these people are trespassers.

Thirdly, you act like because you're "highly educated" that you're actually smarter than us "wasted potential".

As far as I can tell, your parents, your school fed you the bullshit that college is good for everyone, and you gobbled it right up. Now you have your head so far up your ass you can't even recognize how utterly flawed and disgusting your logic is.

It doesn't sound like they taught you common sense in school.

EDIT: In a feeble attempt to try to make a positive difference you might want to look up "Shop Class As Soulcraft: An inquiry into the value of work" by Matthew B Crawford.

I don't agree with everything he said, but it might kick you in the balls with a different perspective than what you're clinging to now.

Here's a review: [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/books/review/Fukuyama-t.html[/url]