I Miss My Wife

[IndiReloaded]

The Parenting Without Violence classes were not because of any action I ever took towards my son. They were because the child was in the house when the violence I committed against his mother occurred. I have never hit my son. Either one of them.

Do you have a son with your present wife? Confused by "either one of them".

[HeartIsAching]

Do you have a son with your present wife?

No. Though we are discussing the possibility of having a child. It's a bit risky at her age, though.

[IndiReloaded]

Right. Any thoughts about how that might affect your existing son? Or does that even factor into your thoughts on this? You see the point I am making here, I hope. Your thoughts seem to focus very much on your wife and less so your child.

HIA, I truly hope your present relationship w/your wife goes the distance. But I will warn you: if it does not then you will have a lot to answer to your son for when he grows up. Try to rise above the love hormones for a bit and really think about this. All true wealth is genetic, and you are really blowing your investment right now.

[Wakeup]

Miso, frankly its b/c they know they are guilty of not standing up for these kinds of issues. So they have to take this ridiculous "well, at least s/he is trying..." position or realize they aren't doing enough themselves. You know, you've seen this in your own profession, the guilty family member/neighbour.

Once again with all due respect i think you should stop assuming and projecting and conjecturing. I thought you were better than that. You have no idea what I do or whether or not it's "enough."

Do I have high expectations? You bet (you know I do). Its why I get the results I get in life.

You are not the only one who gets positive results in their life. Those who are not displaying prejudice towrds the OP do not have less or lower expectations than you just because we can see that he has taken steps to improve his ways where you cannot.

I can only do what you continue to do, that being assume that your father left you when you were young for you to be so unyielding and predjudiced in this thread.

[HeartIsAching]

Right. Any thoughts about how that might affect your existing son? Or does that even factor into your thoughts on this? You see the point I am making here, I hope. Your thoughts seem to focus very much on your wife and less so your child.

HIA, I truly hope your present relationship w/your wife goes the distance. But I will warn you: if it does not then you will have a lot to answer to your son for when he grows up. Try to rise above the love hormones for a bit and really think about this. All true wealth is genetic, and you are really blowing your investment right now.

Do I think about it? Of course I do. Will it affect in any way, shape or form what decision my wife and I will come to? Of course not. No sane parent consults their children for permission to have siblings for them.

Will I prepare and have a serious talk about it with my son if it becomes a reality? Of course I will.

I am focused on my wife, and she on me, but not more than I am on my son.

I know for fact that my wife and I will be together until one of us dies. Both of us had some things to learn before we could be successful, and things we'll have to learn. One thing neither one of us is afraid of now is to seek assistance if we have a problem. She's my best friend and has been for nearly 20 years. We've also been in love with each other for nearly that long. I am well aware of her flaws and she of mine, I know she's not perfect, just perfect for me.

[IndiReloaded]

Once again with all due respect i think you should stop assuming and projecting and conjecturing. I thought you were better than that. You have no idea what I do or whether or not it's "enough."

You are not the only one who gets positive results in their life. Those who are not displaying prejudice towrds the OP do not have less or lower expectations than you just because we can see that he has taken steps to improve his ways where you cannot.

I can only do what you continue to do, that being assume that your father left you when you were young for you to be so unyielding and predjudiced in this thread.

Wakeup, in case you hadn't yet noticed, I really don't care what you think. Make all the assumptions you please. Everything I have said about HIA can be validated in his posts from other threads. I just happen to have a very good memory for such things. If you want the data its in the forum, do your own research.

LOL, my parents are wonderful people who raised terrific kids. So, the only point I will grant you is that I don't have any direct experience with this situation. Should I be more tolerant of such failure b/c I know what it should be like? Yes, I have a certain amount of success in life, largely b/c I have standards, I know what they are and I live by them. I'm not special. If I can do it, my parents can do it, so can others IF they choose. As for those who experienced differently, I think these parents should rise above their own upbringing for the sake of their children. In fact, I would think they would be MORE likely to do so to avoid similar pain for their own offspring.

After all, what is the point of these forums, and Oprah and Dr. Phil-esque things that are out there? To actually make us DO better, or just to make us FEEL better about failing?

[IndiReloaded]

Do I think about it? Of course I do. Will it affect in any way, shape or form what decision my wife and I will come to? Of course not. No sane parent consults their children for permission to have siblings for them.

What a strange, yet telling response. I didn't say you needed to ask his permission. I said you needed to think about how it might affect things. This means you might actually have a plan in place before going ahead with having another child.

Anyway, your wife is almost too old for kids and you aren't planning to return near your existing son for a couple years. This scenario is a no-brainer.

[Wakeup]

Well we agree on something neither of us really cares what the other thinks.

After all, what is the point of these forums, and Oprah and Dr. Phil-esque things that are out there? To actually make us DO better, or just to make us FEEL better about failing?

you fail to see that he is doing better. His failure in your eyes is that he's not doing what you deem he should be doing.

*wavezzz* I'm outta this one it's become quite circular and based on conjecture.

[MaidenMinx]

Some people have to fail before they can realise they can do better, Indi.

You seem like an intelligent person, and this seems to a point you are extremely passionate about. I am curious as to why? If your parents stayed together and did such a good job, I'm wondering where there is cause for you to be so passionate about this? Do you work with kids? This is just my personal curiosity as I am still trying to figure out the dynamics of this particular forum and the way I like to do that is by gaining a small amount of understanding about who I see to be the key players in any forum.

Parents are people too and their personal development has to occur regardless of the children they may have. To be a better parent, some people need to become better people. Sometimes this can't happen in the home that the children have been bought into. Were the people stupid for having the children before they were ready? Yeah sure, sometimes accidents happen. Does that mean they can not make up for their mistakes? God no! The one thing I have issue with, with what you are saying is that there seems to be only one right way to do that. The way you describe is definitely the optimal way but that doesn't mean it's the only way that can work.

[HeartIsAching]

What a strange, yet telling response. I didn't say you needed to ask his permission. I said you needed to think about how it might affect things. This means you might actually have a plan in place before going ahead with having another child.

Anyway, your wife is almost too old for kids and you aren't planning to return near your existing son for a couple years. This scenario is a no-brainer.

And of course I've thought about it, and will continue to think about it. If it becomes necessary, I'll talk to him about it - probably several times.

[IndiReloaded]

You seem like an intelligent person, and this seems to a point you are extremely passionate about. I am curious as to why? If your parents stayed together and did such a good job, I'm wondering where there is cause for you to be so passionate about this? Do you work with kids? This is just my personal curiosity as I am still trying to figure out the dynamics of this particular forum and the way I like to do that is by gaining a small amount of understanding about who I see to be the key players in any forum.

LOL, you and WakeUp both can only imagine someone caring about this issue if one has directly experienced it. You can't imagine being passionate about how to develop reasonable people or larger problems associated with this concept? What else moves our society, Minx? Those are the things that concern me.

No, this isn't based on personal experience. But, I have been involved with and looked after children of troubled families. Just locally, not in a foster or more formal sense. I am also quite active in my son's school and the community, particularly as regards education. Aside from being an educator myself, tho at a college level.

The first path to reasonable people and society starts with the experience provided to children. They deserve our very best. You won't be shocked, but I happen to think that many people should be prohibited from having children until they have demonstrated a certain amount of personal maturity. Our process for driving a vehicle is more stringent than the requirements for becoming a parent. Doesn't that strike you as decidedly warped?

[IndiReloaded]

To be a better parent, some people need to become better people. Sometimes this can't happen in the home that the children have been bought into. Were the people stupid for having the children before they were ready? Yeah sure, sometimes accidents happen. Does that mean they can not make up for their mistakes? God no! The one thing I have issue with, with what you are saying is that there seems to be only one right way to do that. The way you describe is definitely the optimal way but that doesn't mean it's the only way that can work.

Good points. And yes, I do acknowledge that for some people, having children is the driver for them becoming better people. But children are meant to benefit from their parents; the converse is a pleasant benefit for the parent but not a requirement in the slightest.

Also, I haven't advocated any particular "one right way". What I have said is that the best way is the one that puts the child's needs first. No amount of arguing will convince me that monthly visits is BEST for the child. Sure, it might *do*, it might be just barely enough to make them functional in society. But by no means can anyone convince me that it is the absolute best for that child. You need to distinguish b/t "good enough" and "best". I'm all about best, especially when its about children who had absolutely nothing to do with adult decisions that are, as HIA says, made without their consultation or permission.

[MaidenMinx]

LOL, you and WakeUp both can only imagine someone caring about this issue if one has directly experienced it. You can't imagine being passionate about how to develop reasonable people or larger problems associated with this concept? What else moves our society, Minx? Those are the things that concern me.

No, this isn't based on personal experience. But, I have been involved with and looked after children of troubled families. Just locally, not in a foster or more formal sense. I am also quite active in my son's school and the community, particularly as regards education. Aside from being an educator myself, tho at a college level.

The first path to reasonable people and society starts with the experience provided to children. They deserve our very best. You won't be shocked, but I happen to think that many people should be prohibited from having children until they have demonstrated a certain amount of personal maturity. Our process for driving a vehicle is more stringent than the requirements for becoming a parent. Doesn't that strike you as decidedly warped?

Dealing with your last point first, Yes that is warped. I actually completely agree on actually everyone being prohibited from having kids until they can prove they are mature and stable enough for it, though I must admit I would have trouble supporting it as my husband and I would not have passed any 'test' that you could set at the time I fell pregnant. Does that make me a bad parent now? Not at all. Are my husband and I the exception to the rule when it comes to unplanned pregnancies? Unfortunately yes. And it does make me sad for other children going through hardship. In saying all that I think very few parents would pass any sort of test.

It's not that I cannot imagine someone being so passionate without having experienced it. It's just it seemed to me that your passion was derived from some sort of experience, whether it was personal or not. People are rarely passionate about childrens welfare unless they have seen how easily a childs happiness can be destroyed and the impact the destruction can have on a child long term. The simple fact of the matter is that life is not, never has been and never will be a fair deal for all. I also have a strong belief that hardship builds stronger and better people.

One reason I think the way you have attacked HIA is unfair is from the simple fact that he is trying. He hasn't just walked off and ignored his responsibility's. Is it ideal? Of course not. Is it good enough? Only his son could tell you. Should he have to justify the fact that life hasn't gone as he would have liked? well no.

[MaidenMinx]

Good points. And yes, I do acknowledge that for some people, having children is the driver for them becoming better people. But children are meant to benefit from their parents; the converse is a pleasant benefit for the parent but not a requirement in the slightest.

Also, I haven't advocated any particular "one right way". What I have said is that the best way is the one that puts the child's needs first. No amount of arguing will convince me that monthly visits is BEST for the child. Sure, it might *do*, it might be just barely enough to make them functional in society. But by no means can anyone convince me that it is the absolute best for that child. You need to distinguish b/t "good enough" and "best". I'm all about best, especially when its about children who had absolutely nothing to do with adult decisions that are, as HIA says, made without their consultation or permission.

The problem I see is that you are not leaving any room for human error. We are humans.

I put my sons needs ahead of mine as much as humanly possible, and I have just realised that this may be the crucial point at which our opinions differ. My son has autism, as you probably recall since I have mentioned it before and this might sounds cruel but it is simply not possible for me to do 'the best" for him. If I was to put him first ALL of the time I would literally have no time for me or my husband, and I'll go back to one of my original points that a miserable parent is no kind of role model. I have actively had to work at choosing to put myself first at times and my husband and I have to actively work at having us time where we don't think about or discuss our son. We have to allow ourselves moments of selfishness to do the best that we are capable of for our boy. Unfortunately our best would likely fall into your 'good enough' category.

I admire the parents that practice selflessness but am not surprised when their marriages fail. I admire the mums who put their all into their kids but am not surprised when their husbands cheat. It's a fine line to walk but as we teach our kids through example more than anything else, we need to teach them that the self is important (you can't do or be anything for anyone if you don't look after yourself) and that relationships take work and balance. How can we teach them that if we are putting them before everything else? Can't things be of equal priority? Can I not put my self, my son and my husband on the same pedestal?

[IndiReloaded]

Trying means nothing, Minx without results. You don't know me, but I will share a bit of my philosophy: in my work I really don't care how hard people try. Take the rest of the week off if you managed to get good results. Things not working? Sure pull 60 hour weeks until it does and THEN take a month off. Life rewards success, not failure.

In today's society, people try all sorts of things and then fail and then expect a medal for their efforts. That's not how life works. Trying isn't enough.

Before anyone decides to comment on my own parenting skills I will explain: we do acknowledge efforts that our son makes in all he does, but more than that we value his efforts in recovering from failure and doing better. Learning from the experience. This is a concept my child can understand and appreciate the benefit of so, yes, I expect better from adults who have the responsibility of teaching their own children these lessons.

What is the lesson HIAs son is learning from his situation, I wonder?