In Praise of Traditional Women

[CAM]

I think he was addressing the OP, CAM.

That's interesting about the blowjobs, but I have to ask, why in the world would you respect someone LESS because she's willing to suck dick?

I think BJs are demeaning to women and have always dissuaded women from doing that to me. Second, I think that it is hypocritical on the part of a radical feminist to have anything to do with men. Period. War is not a part-time venture. You either fight an enemy or you don't.

While I don't like radical feminism, I have always respected those radical feminists who practice what they preached and have been good friends with many of them. We agree to disagree and focus on those issues in the world that we share in common in the rational world. I have even accept their hatred of men from a purely theoretical standpoint--it is very much like any belief system.

[CAM]

Ah, Cam, come on. Is this a thinly veiled insult that females are stupid and not capable of advanced planning? I protest.

Of course, I don't know anyone I would call a 'radical feminst'. So mbe I'm missing something. I'm skeptical of any 'radical' group tho. Male or female. PETA comes to mind, most recently.

The problem is, as it always has been, that people simply need to know what they want and be honest about it. Teaching kids, women, men, how to do this isn't actually so simple. There are a lot of agenda-driven messages out there that aren't necessarily good ones. For any of you who have worked for or with large organizations, you realize they often don't themselves know what the hell they are doing or why. People leap on these poorly thought out bandwagons b/c they think they sound good and, frankly, don't want to do the hard thinking work for themselves. There are several posters here who fit this description, in fact, who will nod their heads reading this post but not realize I mean them.

Sheep and shepherds. Figure out which you are. Most who think they are shepherds are really sheep mimicking shepherds b/c they think being a sheep is shameful. THAT is the false message that needs to be aired out for the dirty laundry it is.

Baaaaaaa!!

I accept radical feminism as a belief system and belief systems are often highly emotionally based. I do not agree with it. I think it, like many orthodox religions, can easily verge into hysteria and insanity. I think that many radical feminist, when in their rave moments, can be idiotic to the degree that an idiot is either incapable or purposely avoiding any sense of reason.

Not all women are radical feminists, but like any belief system is had followers of various stripes and, like you said, many of them have jumped on board without thinking it through.

I would argue that most of my female relatives are feminists, but not radical feminists. They benefitted from aspects of 1950s feminism leading up to but not including second wave feminism.

[IndiReloaded]

I accept radical feminism as a belief system and belief systems are often highly emotionally based. I do not agree with it. I think it, like many orthodox religions, can easily verge into hysteria and insanity.

Sounds delightful. Must be hell if their board meetings correspond with monthly PMS.

I would argue that most of my female relatives are feminists, but not radical feminists. They benefitted from aspects of 1950s feminism leading up to but not including second wave feminism.

I guess I don't equate this with feminism so much as taking a stand on equality. But, like I said before, I know nothing about feminism. Never taken a 'women's study' course in my life. I find the idea laughable, actually, that there isn't a 'men's study' equivalent. Maybe there someone should consider starting the curriculum?

Hey, there must be men who graduated with a degree in Women's Studies. Wonder what happens to those guys?

Seriously, tho, I suppose I should read up a bit more on the subject. Just to get a sense of what kinds of programming and messages I may have integrated that I don't even really think about.

[CAM]

Hey, there must be men who graduated with a degree in Women's Studies. Wonder what happens to those guys?

Seriously, tho, I suppose I should read up a bit more on the subject. Just to get a sense of what kinds of programming and messages I may have integrated that I don't even really think about.

There are TONS of guys in Women's Studies programs. Some are there to get laid. Some are there because they seek to understand their self-hatred.

In turns out that gender/sex orientation is a market-driven choice. Read about the young boys (9 and 12) in the UK who have decided to become girls? True story. Makes sense in a strange way...if you are going to get screwed, then it is more enjoyable if you have the proper equipment

Yes, you should read about the new Western religion. It is not a coincidence that Women's Studies waxed just when Religious Studies waned.

[Junket]

When all hell breaks loose, women will flock to men that can protect them, impregnate them, and get things done.

[Aeradalia]

Women need to define their own roles in society for themselves --- not men. This is what happens when you have a masculine mindset attempt to define femininity. The male practical mind is based in the realm of the physical, and so he will always view females as being naturally subservient because of their eagerness to please and weak because of their more emotional manner of being. He'll also assume that all women are caring just because they are the ones who carry the offspring, which isn't necessarily true of all women either.

Men typically have a default ranking structure by nature, in which there isn't any 'equals'... either you're better than someone or they're better than you. This mentality shows up again and again in a masculine society. So it's only natural for a man to view women as inferior because they attempt to measure a woman's worth against instinctual and long out-dated methods. The limitations of the body are irrelevent in an advanced society and displays of emotions are acceptable --- yet what argument do you hear again and again from the masculine perspective about women? They're physically weaker and more emotional.

Women think in abstract ways, using their emotions to offer a new dimension on the information they take in about their world. It's what led to the develoment of intuition - the ability to draw reasonable conclusions from seemingly insufficient information. The average female is more emotionally aware than the average male, and thus makes for a better negotiator in tense situations and keeps ties with friends and family strong with little effort. They thrive in working environments that require a 'sixth sense' about social situations. The average female is quite adept at recognizing beauty, which is an integral part of art. Chances are that art probably originated from a female mindset and was adopted by males later on.

Men are usually the more rational and women are usually the more irrational. A purely logical being has been proven insufficient time and time again in nature. Creativity cannot stem from a mind bound by rules. At the same time however, survival cannot be assured from a mind that isn't bound to logic in some way. So men and women under the pressures of survival divided the work load into two parts.

That was a strategy that worked then. Humanity is approaching a new stage of evolution that does not require such division of the rational and irrational. Society places more importance on the individual specifically... which means regaining the missing feminine or masculine side of the mind. It's apparent in advanced society --- men learning more about their emotions and women learning to be more emotionally controlled.

We're evolving from traditional roles assigned by nature into individuals... I say, let the individual define who and what they are. If they want to embrace the more traditional role -- that's their right... and if they don't -- once again, that's their right.

[vashti]

I don't really understand why all the animosity towards the word "feminism". Jeezus, even my brother calls himself a feminist. if you guys want to take issue with the extremists in the world, be my guest, but everyone should advocate feminism.


fem⋅i⋅nism  /ˈfɛməˌnɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fem-uh-niz-uhm]

–noun 1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.
3. feminine character.

[Junket]

We wouldn't be having this conversation if humans evolved, there's a conflict between what modern society requires to function properly, and human instinct.

Physiologically, we have not evolved very much at all.

Culturally we have evolved a lot.

[Aeradalia]

1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

3. feminine character.

These would be the problems with feminism.

First it sets men as the standard upon which women are to strive to meet. Rather than equality between the genders -- women have to be equal to men. That's two different concepts. Equality between the genders is possible... a woman taking on the characteristics typically associated with males does not leave much room for femininity.

The other is assigning that the aforementioned should be the definition of feminine character, which it isn't.

Ultimately, "feminism" is a means of copying masculine behavior. Women do not behave as men do... we don't think in the same way... and we do not perceive the world in the same manner. We are not weaker, and neither are we better than men. Our cultural evolution has to be our own -- not some vain attempt to copy men. Women need to put forth some actual effort and figure out for themselves what it means to be a woman in today's society.

[IndiReloaded]

The average female is more emotionally aware than the average male, and thus makes for a better negotiator in tense situations and keeps ties with friends and family strong with little effort. They thrive in working environments that require a 'sixth sense' about social situations. The average female is quite adept at recognizing beauty, which is an integral part of art. Chances are that art probably originated from a female mindset and was adopted by males later on.

Men are usually the more rational and women are usually the more irrational. A purely logical being has been proven insufficient time and time again in nature. Creativity cannot stem from a mind bound by rules.

Interesting post, D.

I'm not sure I agree with the highlighted points. What context are you referring to when you say 'negotiation'? B/c I do a lot of this in a business context and I find that women are generally less accomplished negotiators. There, emotions are actually a detriment unless being used in a very specific way.

The last point I don't know what you mean. Are you saying that men are less creative than women? Not sure I'd agree with that either. It could be true, from a purely ideas viewpoint. But, since males are generally better risk-takers with more 'follow through' its hard to measure. If you go solely based on outcomes, you'd have to conclude men are more accomplished in this arena.

I would say that women tend to be better facilitators, but that's a different skill set.

[vashti]

We are talking about RIGHTS, indi - not behavior. I think women should have the right to behave as a man would, or to take on their characteristics if they wish. Whether or not they choose to is another story.

I consider myself a feminist, and I am rather traditional by anyone's standards. And I also don't feel demeaned when giving blowjobs (unless there is no reciprocation, which of course I demand.)

[Aeradalia]

Interesting post, D.

I'm not sure I agree with the highlighted points. What context are you referring to when you say 'negotiation'? B/c I do a lot of this in a business context and I find that women are generally less accomplished negotiators. There, emotions are actually a detriment unless being used in a very specific way.

The last point I don't know what you mean. Are you saying that men are less creative than women? Not sure I'd agree with that either. It could be true, from a purely ideas viewpoint. But, since males are generally better risk-takers with more 'follow through' its hard to measure. If you go solely based on outcomes, you'd have to conclude men are more accomplished in this arena.

I would say that women tend to be better facilitators, but that's a different skill set.

I was referring to taking what is innately there in males and females and then having that built upon --- honed in. It is purely theoretical of course. Real life has men and women who may have what is innately there, but each individual has a different manner and level of skill and refinement, which would lead to situations where one person may do better than another, despite the odds.

Just as you could have two people with artistic abilities, with one developing it and the other doesn't... thus one becomes an accomplished artist and the other doesn't.

Being more creative and being prone more to creativity are two different things. Both men and women have the potential for creativity... just as both men and women have the potential to be more analytical... there's just a natural predisposition for either gender to favor one more so than the other --- something that can easily be overcome willfully by the individual.

The fact that men generally inhabit more occupations, in more diversed fields, and have done so for a very long time is not an accurate pool of information in which to compare what men are capable of to what women are capable of -- namely because there's not many 'nontraditional' roles in which either gender can be meaningfully compared, as there just hasn't been enough time.

In essence, I was comparing the potentials of either gender based on what is innately there along with natural inclinations.

[Mish]

These would be the problems with feminism.

First it sets men as the standard upon which women are to strive to meet. Rather than equality between the genders -- women have to be equal to men. That's two different concepts. Equality between the genders is possible... a woman taking on the characteristics typically associated with males does not leave much room for femininity.

The other is assigning that the aforementioned should be the definition of feminine character, which it isn't.

Ultimately, "feminism" is a means of copying masculine behavior. Women do not behave as men do... we don't think in the same way... and we do not perceive the world in the same manner. We are not weaker, and neither are we better than men. Our cultural evolution has to be our own -- not some vain attempt to copy men. Women need to put forth some actual effort and figure out for themselves what it means to be a woman in today's society.

Thanks Dalia, you said exactly what I wanted to say only much better. That's the exact problem that I see as well. Now that I'm dating a girl from a traditional culture and have someone to compare my previous exs to I can see it so clearly. And that's exactly what I see, for some reason women in the western world on average tend to act in a more masculine manner than women from traditional cultures. One may argue that they are just acting out their "natural tendencies", but on closer examination I can see that they are just acting out whatever behaviour they see as culturally acceptable. Just like there are girls who copy whatever behaviour is promoted by celebrities, these women are copying masculine behaviour which is being promoted on average they are more aggressive, more competitive, more initiating, more cold, frowning on traditional aspects of feminine female character as if being a woman is an insult.

You know I accept the virtues of feminism, I believe that women need to have equal rights in our society and get paid equally. But certain aspects of our culture are churning out abominations. They are not men, they are not women, but something entirely different, some of them themselves no longer know what they've become. And as a man it feels repulsive associating with these creatures. Sometimes it makes me wonder if this is the REAL reason why the divorce rate is so high in our western world.

I think this forum is an exception to the rule though. Most women here don't display these qualities. But as soon as you go into the real world and start dating these qualities become so obvious.

Though fortunately there are women out there who try to promote what being a woman in a modern world is all about. Singers like Sharon del Adel from Within Temptation write songs which touch the heart of what feminism should be about. Showing the power that women have when they exercises their natural intuitive, nurturing and naturally feminine qualities. She says everything that needs to be said about the rights of women in a modern world using a non combative language which is easy to understand and accept. When you look at her and listen to her songs you realise this is a woman who has everyone's best interest in mind and she is worthy of great respect. And this is how I want to see all women, not as competition, but as understanding and as worthy of great respect.

[IndiReloaded]

We are talking about RIGHTS, indi - not behavior. I think women should have the right to behave as a man would, or to take on their characteristics if they wish. Whether or not they choose to is another story.

But why would they? I think Dalia's point, which I agree with, is that women shouldn't be copying men. They should just work according to their strengths. Personally, I have a lot of skills that are typically 'male', but that's not why I choose them. I'm not trying to be a guy, I'm just good at certain things that statistically, more men than women seem to enjoy.

So sure, women can have the 'right' to act like a guy, and vice-versa. But I withhold MY right to tell either that they suck at it and should consider another option. Assuming its in my purview to do so. I believe that meritocracy should be possible in the 21st century. Gender politics is so 20th century.

[Aeradalia]

In the end... women should select a behavior that works... for no other reason than it works. It doesn't matter if it was originally a male concept... it doesn't matter if it's an 'inferior' female concept... whatever its origins... if a concept --- an idea, works for an individual then that's all that matters.

Let either gender pay homage to their origins and traditional values within reason... but neither group should feel bound by vestigial expectations based solely on whether they were born with an innie or an outie. To do so would be no different than restricting yourself because of the color of your skin --- something else that once had 'traditional' rules as well.