Michael Moore...Sicko (

[LostNotFound]

oh my. lol

[IndiReloaded]

i know. i love sphinx's too.

anyway, i think indi and mish are just really good friends with michael moore and that's why they're pounding this in our faces. i have this picture as further evidence...

Pooh on you. At least put it in Brain Juice, then. And what have *I* been pounding, except to say that I'm one of the few that actually has experience in both healthcare systems? Mish has firmly taken the reigns on this one.

[IndiReloaded]

Question for Mish:

Do you know whether Australia has a reciprocal care agreement with Canada? I know they do w/the UK, but I can't easily find the same info for Canada (seems likely given the similar systems & we are all Commonwealth). I need to know this.

I would have just PMd, BTW, but I thought ppl might be interested to know about the existance of these agreements. Seemed related to the thread.

[kimpy26]

i saw a cut vid of wat it's like in holland i think. it was perfect!

[squirrley]

I find this incredibly interesting, these conversations. Thank you guys!

Vash, I cant imagine what youre going through, definte hoops Im sure. Youre in my prayers, goodluck sweetie!

[Mish]

no, you showed me numbers of native americans who did not have health insurance. those people would be just as lucky as me. probably more lucky as there are also some really nice hospitals for native americans where i live.

well, it's really a shame we can't discuss this further. i guess we can give you the night to think about what you're gonna say to sound right.

good luck!

Alritey, I'm back

Let's dive back into it

What did I show you? I showed you an article which explained that the health care for Native Americans is far worse than it is for white people in US. You must have been an excpetion to the rule. I will post the quote again for you, since you so easily forget:

Native Americans are also disadvantaged with respect to access to care: for example, compared to whites, they are less likely to have had a doctor or health professional visit in the previous year, less likely to be confident they can get care when they need it or to be satisfied with the care their family receives, and more likely to report communication problems with their health care provider.

You can find a lot more on the subject matter on the aricle I posted. That and how a lot more native americans live in EXTREME poverty compared to all other ethnic groups in your country. No, the way native americans are treated in US is worse than Aborigines arte treated in Australia.

[Mish]

ummmmm no you just failed to see sarcasm and irony.

Is that what you call your posts after they are debunked?

[vashti]

Mish, I already told you (and you ignored) that the reason Native Americans live in substandard conditions is because they want to stay on the reservations. They have a choice to leave and get a job, healthcare, etc, but they don't WANT to.

The only ones who seem to have been able to make it financially on the reservations are the tribes that put in casinos. They are raking in the money in California.

[Junket]

No, the way native americans are treated in US is worse than Aborigines arte treated in Australia.

Yeah, this is bullshit. Here in Oklahoma, "Natives" have a choice to whether they want to be registered with their tribe or not. They're treated no differently than anybody else.

In fact, they're probably treated better than most minorities when you consider all the ridiculous educational benefits/offers they'll get when they check off "Native American" on standardized tests.

EDIT: Also, representing the asian and white demographic, I do not have health insurance either. I could get it, but then I'd probably be breaking even month to month and thus, would not be able to do the things I want to.

[squirrley]

I can vouch for the casino thing. They have plenty of reservations in WI and holy cow are they making the money!

Im still on the fence about the healthcare. A part of me feels we should have some sort of Universal Health Care but I dont know that I want to pay the taxes for someone else. Yet, I look to what I pay NOW verses what the govt would take in lieu of. I like having the choice of who I can see to some degree. I have a great plan with so many participating Drs.

Im peeved my taxes pay for illegals NOW. So what makes me think I want to pay on a higher scale, I dont. Medicare and Medicaid is great but Im not old yet. Will it truly be there when I get up there? They've already changed so many things in that system.

Welfare, well, I was on it for years. I HATED IT! But I got off my ass ASAP went to school so I could support myself and son. Michigan implemented anyone on welfare only had like 2 or 3 years (if I remember correctly) to use the system, after that they cut you off. The state of FL has plenty of illegals and plenty of welfare system families. I see it EVERYDAY damn day the welfare families whom dont get off their ass to get a job. But yet here they are several kids and more to boot, but they drive a nicer car than I do. There are ways of hiding it.

I think MM's bottom line is that the USA should implement a better system to take care of its citizens. I agree to a point. His movie raised an eye for me. But also knowing SOME of these countries like Cuba, I wouldnt move there, ah hell no. Its a toss and whats important to you. Again, talking to people from Canada, they prefer it there socially more than here.

Theres nothing I can do to change this country, voting, dont think it really matters in the end. Its all about the damn money no matter what the issue.

[Mish]

Everyone I know today is in whatever position they currently find themselves because of the choices they made, and the consequences of those decisions, regardless of what base characteristics they started with.

That's not necesserily correct. If you are born in a poor family and are not taught how to succeed chances are you will remain poor for the rest of your life. Picture yourself having no money, having nothing on your resume that could give you a good job, having no knowledge of what's required of you out there to succeed, how are you going to do it? Picture yourself in a poor person's situation. Picture yourself as one. What would you do?

Then imagine, just when you just started to succeed and make a better life for yourself you suddenly found you had a health condition which if only you had medical insurance you wouldn't have to spend every last penny you earn on it.

Injustice? How is it not unjust that money could be taken from my pocket and distributed among the masses who's lifestyles I have no say in? It doesn't seem very "altruistic" to vote for an idea that other people are to pay for my lifestyle choices, either.

At the moment money is taken from your pocket to fund social services such as postal services, fire departments, police, library services. Is it also unjust that you have to pay for that? You don't necesarily use them all the time, why should you be paying? What about roads? You don't neccesarily use those all the time as well, espeically if you don't have a car. Is it unjust that money has to be taken from your pocket to pay for them?

And how about this. Money is being taken from your pocket to fund a war in another country. Is it just or unjust that you are paying for this war when you could've just spent that money on universal health care instead to make your health care system more fair?

I can't see the fairness in it! Explain how being stripped of money I have worked for to cover another's medical expenses is "fair" to me?

Universal healthcare is not just a tool to take your money and give to the poor, it's a system that puts money into hospitals to make sure they can cope with the influx of people. It's a system that insures you don't loose all of your money simply because you got sick one day. And it's a system that makes health care distribution more fair for all citizents in your country. Just like fire departments don't charge for insurance and only service the insured, health care should be provided on the same basis.

Imagine iffire department operated in the same way as health care system in your country? Imagine your neighbour's house burns down and noone responds. Then fire spreads, your own house catches on fire, by the time someone responds to your call you'll have nothing left. You can apply the same logic to health care. If you don't consider being empathic as a moral duty, consider diseases how much easier these could spread if tens of millions of people are simply refused treatment if they are uninsured.

And think about this you don't live as just "you" in your country. You live as part of a social order that provides you and regulates a lot of luxuries that many countries around the world simply can't afford and don't have. If you lived by yourself somewhere in the desert, you wouldn't have so many choices and opportunities as you have right now. You have them partly because of the efforts of the poor, of the people who on the daily basis provide services doing crappy unrewarding jobs. Don't you think you have a social responsibility to make sure these people have at least basic health care?

[squirrley]

Fras, this is my concern, youre not insured. WHAT IF? What if something happens to you and you need series medical treatment? HOW do you pay for it? I ran around for 7 yrs with no insurance and omg I just couldnt do it anymore knowing what was coming. I finally raised hell with my employer and got it. Thank God. But you and like myself I do worry about it, we work our asses off to just get by, so how fair is it youre uninsured? What are you going to do? Go bankrupt? Lose everything? See what Im saying. People like us is who Im worried about.

[Mish]

Question for Mish:

Do you know whether Australia has a reciprocal care agreement with Canada? I know they do w/the UK, but I can't easily find the same info for Canada (seems likely given the similar systems & we are all Commonwealth). I need to know this.

I would have just PMd, BTW, but I thought ppl might be interested to know about the existance of these agreements. Seemed related to the thread.

I'm not quite sure about that Indi. But I know that there is a good relationship between our two countries. We have a lot of things similar.

[vashti]

A lot of young people choose not to purchase health insurance, and most of the time, they don't need it because they are still healthy. It's a gamble...

[Mish]

Mish, I already told you (and you ignored) that the reason Native Americans live in substandard conditions is because they want to stay on the reservations. They have a choice to leave and get a job, healthcare, etc, but they don't WANT to.

We have a similar issue with Aborigines in Australia. I mentioned this because Miso seemed to insist that native americans have it so much better in US, when in fact their situation is just as bad if not worse compared to Aborigines here.

By the way, I support the cause of Aborigines and would vote for any plan to improve their conditions even if it meant paying higher taxes.