How do I get my brother to stop believing in PUA?

[twakak]

My older brother is 36 and has followed PUA websites since around the age of 21. He's recently moved back to live with my dad who's having issues dealing with him - a local bar has just banned my brother as he keeps antagonising regulars. Apparently my brother gives regulars rude lectures on their dating life and careers saying they're too nice etc etc. I'm getting some emails from both my dad and school friends who still live there because of his 'in your face' behaviour and I've had it with this.

He used to be great to be around and had had a couple of long term gfs, plus was a social butterfly. Then he had this bad experience with a girl in his sophomore year in college who cheated on him and he ended up reading PUA self help books. We went to the same college - pretty soon after that I stopped clubbing with him because if he wasn't pissing women off with his obvious PUA 'tactics', he'd be lecturing me instead, telling me all women were all 'money grabbing sluts'.

Back then I tried reasoning with him and explaining that one bad experience doesn't speak for all dating experiences, but his arguing was unreal - changing subject, stonewalling, jumping on anecdotal evidence etc etc. It's now at the point where me and my sister, plus our SOs, have cut him out due to the scenes he's caused at gatherings and my dad is considering options finding alternative accomodation for him. Not that I'd keep score or cared but while he hasn't had any long term gfs since college, I've never followed any sexist PUA stuff about 'being a cock', yet dated successfully and am now happily married.

I was discussing it with a friend from school and we reckon my brother let it go to his head when he was a social butterfly in high school and just stopped developing. I hear through the grapevine that he still gets one night stands, which he probably sees as evidence of his PUA theories being accurate - the reality is that he's fairly physically​ fit by any standards so women come up to him, but once they get to know him they don't stay long. Also the times I've seen him get with women he just chilled out and cut the PUA crap out, something he never notices and that I've raised in the past to no avail (unfortunately cutting the PUA out was rare).

My friend's suggestion is that rather than just telling him PUA is wrong to give him some sort of training in statistics like psychologists get, so he at some point he can see for himself that he's wrong, or to get him to do CBT, which focuses on evidence base aswell. I just wonder given that he's held onto these views into his 30s if he will give it real thought. There seem to be some saving grace in that he doesn't appear to have gone to the lengths of joining MRA groups and seems to supports equal rights (many people on the websites he visits don't) but I really wonder if I can get through.

What do others think? Unfortunately it looks like I can't ignore this any more - have you any experience showing to someone like this that they're blinkered and of getting through to them?

[GLYC]

That's a tough scenario, since he has kind of been brain washed, it can be hard to break an individuals pattern of thinking.
The PUA stuff has a cult of followers really, and some of the PUA stuff can work in the short term. So possibly after seeing some short term success he believes it's the proper way. The PUA stuff works in the short term probably just because of the confidence and going for what you want, whereas other men just won't try at all.

But like you said, it doesn't help you with developing healthy, longterm relationships.
Because now he's lacking that mindset and those skills. Which include good communication, caring, and empathy.

Like you said. He needs to change his approach.
Some of the people that I currently enjoy reading and watching videos (tons are on youtube) of are Coach Corey Wayne, and Tony Robbins.
You could recommend them to him, but he will likely think it's BS.

Corey Wayne is good and would probably be more your brothers type of lecture, he swears and is funny, but he's respectful.
He talks a lot about having good communication, emotional self control , conflict resolution and making women feel special . Amongst many other good topics.
Probably most important he talks about the balance of trying too hard vs not trying at all, and being too caring vs being a cold fish (not giving a ****).
Tony Robbins was actually Coreys mentor or coach per say as well for when he struggled, they're both really good.
These guys are peak performance life coaches, which are all about becoming the best version of yourself and implementing actual good methods of handling things.


The problem is you can't just reverse his way for thinking easily. He sounds ingrained with his approach.
You've tried talking with him about his rude behavior and honestly that's all you can do.
Maybe in a few more years or as some more time progresses he will see that it was a mistake.
Likely he will dismiss other stuff as being irrelevant or not correct.
Another problem is he's probably overly focused on following a guide, ive done that before with a non-PUA approach, and it just doesn't end well.
You start to act inauthentic and you don't adapt or change your approach which would normally happen in order to resolve the issue or make things better.

The guides and learning from all these guys are just that, they're a guide. It's a rubric to follow for success, but a person needs to know that you can break away from it and at times you need to. Every situation is different. Like you said, you and plenty of others have had successful relationships without it. Some people are naturally just good at dating and relationships whereas others are not.

Regqrdless, I still think there's value in learning some this stuff as it can save you lots of heartbreak, and it will make your relationships become an even higher quality.

[Lama2006]

I think firstly try and asess the background as much as possible - you say he was good with relationships in high school but since has had short term success at most. These details matter in terms of understanding him and giving him hope as there's probably a teen self that was good with women but where he lost that faith in himself, and where he needs to tap into it again. It also helps to acknowledge he's had gfs before, rather than coming across as crass.

Also how has your family behaved around him and you? If he got away with stuff as a kid it makes a difference - often if parents side with kids that are narcisstic argumentative s***s to their siblings they learn to that elsewhere and it affects your ability to get through to them.

Nevertheless the important thing is to learn how to get through - the 1st step. Reasoning with him, raising the issue etc often fails as the defences go up - his arguing sounds narcisstic, so instead try a more subtle approach.

There are a few ideas. One thing I did with a friend in my mid 20s - I asked a mutual friend to invite him on a guys' trip as I thought it might wake him up. At such close quarters he received criticisms which people normally kept quiet, plus he told me afterwards that he'd noticed that nobody else used PUA yet most succeeded with women (even some of those that rarely did) while he used PUA and failed. It's a bit risky though - by the end he got along, but he could have easily gotten the wrong idea, and it is pot luck as to whether a 36 year old stuck in his ways would respond.

Another option - try and introduce him to a similar person BUT that he won't get along with. It's a classic therapist trick (Steve Peters used it on the snooker ace Ronnie O'Sullivan when he started working with him) - often seeing someone similar to you and how badly they come across, even the most defensive person will go 'am I like that?' as their hatred of the other person takes over from their ego defences. It may sound difficult given that he's been at this stuff 15 years and argues narcissistically but remember he probably hasn't met many PUAers and most PUA people will have had much less success than him and will probably come across as much more pathetic, so you never know, he may get the message.

Once you break through your friend's suggestions on CBT are an idea - it is down to him and all that, but giving him good guidance in what will be a difficult period could make a difference.

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Also, if the above don't work, then have the Plan B for if your dad can find alternative accomodation for him. Most of the above suggestions or others you could come up with might take months or even years. Nevertheless I think the key is subte moves to expose him to eye opening situations rather than preaching to him.

And don't forget you don't have to do this if it's too hard - if he spits it back in your face and leaves your life and home town you can move on and forget about him. It's his problem, not yours.