who'd you kiss on LF

[Sooky]

What more evidence do you need than the Emperor simply stating that he wanted peace? Would you say that President Bush is evil? He definitely fits the criteria you laid as as what you defined as "evil" acts as does any leader who has gone to war. .

Ok, so the Emperor said he wanted peace… so… *shrugs shoulders* and? He destroyed an entire planet!!! If that’s not evil I don’t know what is. And YES I would totally agree. By definition George Bush is evil! However, he’s also an idiot, and so you have to forgive him for some of his evilness. Of course, he’s not as evil as the Emperor, nowhere near, and like I said, evil is relative. In fact all leaders that go to war have to be somewhat evil. I think what we are really arguing about here is the definition of evil and not whether the Dark Side is evil.

The emperor didn't kill for the sake of killing or the sake of doing "bad". Like I said, it was all a means to achieve a goal. The Light Side wanted to stay in power, so what did they do? They hunted down the Sith almost into extinction. Their ideology may differ but their methods were quite similar.

Using my definition of evil, the one I found in the Collins English Dictionary (possibly laughable, I'm not sure of its reputation), evil does not mean killing for the sake of killing, but simply causing harm/ suffering… blah..blah… blah. As a result, just because you kill people to achieve a goal, doesn’t mean its not evil. Using that thought process, I could murder you to prevent you further arguing against my views and thus bringing peace to this thread, but the act of murdering you would still be evil. Even though I'm doing it to achieve a goal, (in my mind even a noble goal of bringing peace) its still an "evil" act.

Not to mention the "Light" Side didn't only avoid emotions of anger or fear, but virtually almost all emotion at all. They saw things in black and white. In a sense they were the "conservatives" of the Star Wars universe.

The problem with either ideology is that they are both far too extreme. They were both highly intolerant of each other, both used violence as a means to achieve or hold power. One is all about virtually having no emotion, to one that embraces self destructive emotions.

I agree that yes both sides are evil, as both used violence to achieve their goals. However, like I said, evil is relative and if you look at all the facts the Light Side is clearly less evil than the Dark Side.

I know I may take some hits for bein' a dork, but a Star Wars game I played really opened my eyes as to what it meant to be part of the "dark side". It went much deeper than, "bad totalitarian guy killing everything in a quest for power" vs "good noble socialist guy saving the galaxy" and more into how humans behave and how either side will manipulate others to achieve what they want to achieve.

Yeah, history is definitely written by the victors too. When someone wins they get to tell their side of the story and make their opponent seem more evil then them, when in fact both sides are usually equally guilty and evil. This would be true in the case of Star Wars except that its a story and is written to favour the Light Side. Ok I confess I haven't read the books, but judging by the films (and I'm guessing they at least vaguely resemble the books) the Light Side is definitely favoured as the less evil side.

So, can it be safely said that the Light Side does evil things to achieve it's noble goals? Does the end really justify the means?.

Yeap the Light Side certainly does evil things to achieve its goals, but “avoiding emotion” gives them a much clearer perspective then someone who is strongly influenced by his emotions of anger and hate like the Emperor. Surely you must agree with me there at least? The Light Side of the force is relatively speaking good compared to the Dark Side. Therefore the Dark Side is relatively speaking more evil.

Isn't it amusing that a seemingly innocuous thread such as this becomes a Star Wars debate?

I apologise, seems I’ve let my selfish desires for posting power take over my emotional suppressing philosophy once again. But the hermit, TV-watching life style can get boring at times and debating random nonsense is a nice cheap form of excitement.

Is terrible really. No doubt I’ll be banned sooner or later. Probably sooner judging from this crap.

[Gribble]

Does Raiders of the Lost Ark ring a bell? How about American Graffiti?

If I'm not mistaken, Spielberg directed Raiders of the Lost Ark. Georgie-boy just made the original character sketch. And if you look at Star Wars, the second two movies were directed by other people and are often regarded as far superior to the original, which Lucas directed himself. Never watched American Graffiti, so I can't comment.

[jurupa]

Sweet no one wants to kiss me.

Dam no one wants to kiss me.

Sweet no one wants to kiss me.

Dam no one wants to kiss me.

Sweet no one wants to kiss me.

Dam no one wants to kiss me.

Sweet no one wants to kiss me.

Dam no one wants to kiss me.

Sweet no one wants to kiss me.

Dam no one wants to kiss me.

[Gigabitch]

Never watched American Graffiti, so I can't comment.

He won an Academy Award for Best Director and another one for Best Writing for that one.

[jurupa]

It's ok jurupa, noone really wants to kiss me either...I'm sure Fras will now take back what he said.

I'd kiss you anytime

(Kisses Meri)

[SONOIL]

I would definately kiss Gigabitch... She's been a lot of help!

[Kiechi]

It's ok jurupa, noone really wants to kiss me either...I'm sure Fras will now take back what he said.

I'd kiss you anytime

Hey, we both like the book 1984. That definitely makes you kiss worthy.

[anachronistic]

i loved that book!

i figured that's where your alias came from, but i thought maybe you had made it up because you live in the UK(?) but you are asian

[TDurden]

I know I may take some hits for bein' a dork, but a Star Wars game I played really opened my eyes as to what it meant to be part of the "dark side". It went much deeper than, "bad totalitarian guy killing everything in a quest for power" vs "good noble socialist guy saving the galaxy" and more into how humans behave and how either side will manipulate others to achieve what they want to achieve.

It was Knights of the Old wasn't it?

[Junket]

It was Knights of the Old wasn't it?

Yes it was, but more the second one than the first.

You're wrong.
I'm not an angel, but I'm far from what you've described.

I stated that you were not an angel, and you agreed so as a result I am right. (Are you just trying to argue every point I have to make me out to be the wrong one? 'Cause with a statement like that it sure seems so.)

This type of behaviour disguists me.

Maybe I'm malicious, maybe I'm devious, maybe I'm evil, along with the rest of American citizens, but I would think such simple deviance could be found across borders, you seem to live in some kind of Utopia if you have never participated in like deviant behavior.

I'll totally choke laughing.
You're comparing this, with the murder, the destroying a planet from the Dark side? This is your comparison of "getting the job done" and "justified means for the noble goal"?!
What you've just desribed are formalities that don't matter, that are even a bother priscribed to an over-diligenced bureaucrat.
Doing something wrong and hurting people, having laws that prevent this is not just bureucracy making the world more complicated without a reason.
How old are you anyway?!

My age is of little relevance.

You are missing my point completely. You're stepping back and looking at the big picture with an idealistic point of view which ironically is making you more short sighted. Let's look into military scenarios where "evil" is most easily found...

When a grunt kills an innocent, tortures an in-mate, opens fire on a harmless civilian vehicle, do you think he/she sitting there wondering "man, I wonder how this will be perceived on the news" or "from the point of view of those who are occupied, am I the evil doer?" In the heat of the moment, scared out of his/her wits, pumped up on adrenaline? I would think not.

You have a job, it's how you make a living, you do what you have to do to retain your job. If your boss says "guard this post", you are put in a potentially life threatening situation, it not only comes down to the act of guarding your post so much as it is guarding your life.

That changes things.

When your commanding officer says that he/she wants information from a prisoner or inmate, do you think he/she gonna do the dirty work themself?

Doubt it.

Now you have a subordinate who is given the task of extracting information from a possibly stubborn inmate. I would assume anybody in that position who's more worried about their job and reputation may set their "normal" moral standards aside to do what they must to complete their assignment.

Now, I can try to justify why they're doing what they're doing, "it's for the greater good" "they save more by making one or two suffer" and all that bullshit. But looking through the eyes of the doer, that's may not even be the shit they're thinking about.

Now if you want to sit up on your high horse and tell me I'm wrong, tell me that everything I've just presented is "wrong, disgusting, immoral" so be it.

But that's the world around both you and me.

And if you don't realize that, then you are heavily sheltered in whatever community you happen to live in.

You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but in my opinion, people should be aware of it. One must understand the formula before they are to solve the problem.

[Kiechi]

i loved that book!

i figured that's where your alias came from, but i thought maybe you had made it up because you live in the UK(?) but you are asian

[url]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=eurasian[/url]

Mum = Asian
Father = European

[Gribble]

Are you actually getting pissed off over a Star Wars discussion?

[Junket]

To be completely honest, I don't feel like reading everything you've written, knowing in advance that we wouldn't see eye to eye, actually, far from it.

I respect you enough to hear out your side, I find it very offensive that you will not return that respect. I do not believe the medium is grounds for an excuse to just abandon the conversation. Would you hang up on me if it were over the phone? Or walk away if it were in person? Does that not reveal something of one's character?

I'm not idealistic, far from it, but I've already told you you were a bad judge of character. Me living somewhere else has nothing to do with anything, actually, living in Croatia instead of America can only make me more realistic.

Good to see you are so much greater a judge of character. And one again, you're taking to an elitist attitude, an attitude that solves nothing.

Your age is of great significance.

Because if I was an 8 year old that would be impressive?

And if I was a 40 year old it would be juvenile?

And the part about me being an angel - for today's standards I am an angel, and for your type of behaviour as well (since you're ok with the stuff I definetely am not).

I had never said I was okay with it, please quote me if I did so I can go back and correct it because those are not, and never were my sentiments. Once again...elitist attitude...

[Junket]

But if you just do it, and he doesn't know about it, you're golden.

I never said that I was "golden boy". By "golden" I meant you're good to go, have nothing to worry about, it's a non-issue.

I said quite politely* I didn't feel like talking or discussing. Do you like making people to do what you want to do, without respecting other people's wishes and needs?

And let's just end this unfriutful conversation, shall we? Damn, I know I will.

You already took it upon yourself to end the conversation without consulting your opponent.

I said:

I had never said I was okay with it, please quote me if I did so I can go back and correct it because those are not, and never were my sentiments. Once again...elitist attitude...

You said:

You spoke of "the way things are done in the army".

I said:

Let's look into military scenarios where "evil" is most easily found...

I'm careful about the words that come out of my "mouth".

Hakuna matata can hardly be called as an elitist attitude.

No, but these can be:

I'm not idealistic, far from it, but I've already told you you were a bad judge of character.

living in Croatia instead of America can only make me more realistic.

Your age is of great significance.

(this being a basis to prejudge)

Either way, don't care.

I won't bug you anymore about this. It's not important anyway.

Since I always use a plastic tree, that's wrong.

About hunting being barbaric - it is barbaric.

I find it sickening..I find it sickening to enjoy killing innocent creatures. Ok, fine, you eat them, I eat them..you don't need to enjoy in hunting, how can you? Hell there's no need for hunting anymore!

These prejudices and generalizations as can be seen here are vast.

[anachronistic]

You have a job, it's how you make a living, you do what you have to do to retain your job. If your boss says "guard this post", you are put in a potentially life threatening situation, it not only comes down to the act of guarding your post so much as it is guarding your life.

in her profile, it states that she is unemployed.