a poem.

[gartlas]

No,I agree with miss sleepy,its not poetry,admittedly I didnt get a degree in poetry like her,but I did get A* in my coursework for it and won a poetry competition.hey,if he didnt wan us to comment on it,then why did he post it here,and besides,what doesit tell u about the feelings involved,nothing!it could be about a pair of magnets for all we know

[miSSleepy]

Actually, he doesn't need to defend it. This isn't the "eviscerate me" thread.

You're coming very close to bashing, miSSy. Are you just particularly passionate about poetry, or what?

Yes I know this isn't the forum for critiquing poetry as such, but it is supposed to induce comments, isn't it? That's what I did: I have comments about the poem and why I didn't like it (apart from me calling him an ignoramus at the end there was absolutely nothing personal, it was all about the poem) and he proceeed to defend it. No one asked him to. I didn't agree with the defence, so he called me narrowminded, said I lacked creativity and common sense. Is that not close to bashing?

But yes, I AM passionate about writing in general, and I'm too used to be in critiquing environments that I got tempted to do so here. I guess this forum is mainly for sharing.

[cuddlemonster]

let me explain my poem.

the words ME AND YOU are on separate lines. those lines happen to have space between them, SPACE. My ex and i were in a 6 year long distance relationship, LONG DISTANCE. the space represents that.

At the end of the word you, is a PERIOD. the period signifies completion of you. with you refering to her, basically she is my completion of searching for love.

in the last line, theres is no period, the "Instead its never" line is open, to symbolize that never is not completed, therefore stating that there is a possibility although never is assumed.

there, for those of you who cant see that there you go, go look at other simple poems out there, check up on ernest hemming ways short stories and you will see so much undiscovered content that only can rediscovered through the most of concentration.

[cuddlemonster]

i expect people to bash, simply for the fact that everyone is different. I am annoyed with people who TRY To establish credability when it comes to poetry, it is IRONY. POETRY IS ****ING SUBJECTIVE and to those of you who bash it or like it, GOOD FOR YOU, but to those of you who resolve to belittling a poem that you dont like THANK YOU FOR SHOWING ME that STUPIDITY is as COMMON as day and night. peace.

[IndiReloaded]

Actually, he doesn't need to defend it. This isn't the "eviscerate me" thread.

You're coming very close to bashing, miSSy. Are you just particularly passionate about poetry, or what?

Sorry Missy, but I agree w/Giga & CM. Poetry *can* be only for the writer. If you want to pull internet rank, one of my relatives is an English & writing prof. He's a Rhodes scholar w/a number of published poetry books (truth). I think he would say that writing poetry is often a very personal experience & doesn't necessarily have to satisfy the criteria of others.

Now, if CM asked for specific help as to how to improve according to some academic standard that's one thing. But he didn't so maybe wait a bit before expressing your expertise. There are many paths.

FWIW, I don't agree w/CM's comment about not changing art. Many of the great painting masters changed or redid their work (there's a story about an older Picasso being banned from a museum for trying to fix his early paintings--possibly apocryphal, but I can see it happening).

Besides, haven't you two read 'The Fountainhead', lol? Self-expression to satisfy the solitary ego, and all that?

[IndiReloaded]

hey,if he didnt wan us to comment on it,then why did he post it here

There's nothing wrong w/saying its a piece of crap that doesn't do anything for you. That's a valid opinion, and yours. But to suggest there are all kinds of tools & rules to apply to improve it, I think, takes away from the sponteneity and mindset of the author.

Mbe he *was* confused, his feelings half-baked w/huge periods of emptiness when he wrote this. Mbe his emotions so overwhelmed his intellect that he could only come up w/monosyllabic words to say what he was thinking. I kinda liked the idea of using the physical spacing of the words for effect. Or mbe he scrawled that in blood on his arm w/a dull penknife... that would imply effort & craft, lol. I'm making this up as I go, of course, but I think you get the idea.

[miSSleepy]

There's nothing wrong w/saying its a piece of crap that doesn't do anything for you. That's a valid opinion, and yours. But to suggest there are all kinds of tools & rules to apply to improve it, I think, takes away from the sponteneity and mindset of the author.

Well...there ARE tooles and rules that need to be applied, believe it or not. The author's sponteneity and mindset has nothing to do with the end product.
the idea is usually to tell the writer WHY the poem is bad, not that it just sux.

Mbe he *was* confused, his feelings half-baked w/huge periods of emptiness when he wrote this. Mbe his emotions so overwhelmed his intellect that he could only come up w/monosyllabic words to say what he was thinking.

Maybe...but so?

Or mbe he scrawled that in blood on his arm w/a dull penknife... that would imply effort & craft, lol. I'm making this up as I go, of course, but I think you get the idea.

That would imply he's an emo
I get your idea, and for the sake and purpose of this particular forum, it's fine, it's a medium for him to get it off his chest and share etc etc etc

[miSSleepy]

let me explain my poem.

the words ME AND YOU are on separate lines. those lines happen to have space between them, SPACE. My ex and i were in a 6 year long distance relationship, LONG DISTANCE. the space represents that.

At the end of the word you, is a PERIOD. the period signifies completion of you. with you refering to her, basically she is my completion of searching for love.

in the last line, theres is no period, the "Instead its never" line is open, to symbolize that never is not completed, therefore stating that there is a possibility although never is assumed.

there, for those of you who cant see that there you go, go look at other simple poems out there, check up on ernest hemming ways short stories and you will see so much undiscovered content that only can rediscovered through the most of concentration.

I don't want an explanation of your poem, it's too late. Your poem has to stand for itself, like a joke. Explain a joke, and you've ruined it.

[miSSleepy]

i expect people to bash, simply for the fact that everyone is different. I am annoyed with people who TRY To establish credability when it comes to poetry, it is IRONY. POETRY IS ****ING SUBJECTIVE and to those of you who bash it or like it, GOOD FOR YOU, but to those of you who resolve to belittling a poem that you dont like THANK YOU FOR SHOWING ME that STUPIDITY is as COMMON as day and night. peace.

The most stupid people are those who don't know it mate

You have not seen me bash, would you like me to?

Look out there. There is a thing called a publishing industry. They're choosy, aren't they? About 3% of writings get published. Those that do are SKILLED AND PROFESSIONALS. If anyone could get anything published, they would.

There is a whole wide world of writing out there that you are clueless about, and you (like many many others who like to write) believe that if it's personal, emotional, from your heart, then it's good. That's true, IF you use skill as well. Ever seen movie with a great plot and intentions, but it was just crap? It's like that. If you don't have the skill to portray your personal emotion from your heart, then your poem is like that movie.

And there are movies that are very well made, but really, the plot sux, and so does the moral (if there is one) but you sit through it anyway, just because. Because it was well made.
A poem can do this as well, if the writer s very skilled. He/she feigns the emotion and makes the reader BELIEVE these emotions come from the heart. But something lacks: soul.

But put those two together, and you have potential for a good poem.
You obviously have the soul and the will. Why not use that will to acknowledge that you need to get better, and strive to get better, instead of resisting all critique because it's unfavourable to you.


Of course, if you're really not THAT into poetry and this was just a one off stab at it, or if you don't want to get better and just prefer to 'share' for your own sake... disregard that advice.

[IndiReloaded]

Well...there ARE tooles and rules that need to be applied, believe it or not.

That NEED be applied? No, I don't believe it. The use of tools in any craft is always optional. One of the thiings that happens in an academic journey is the realization that all those 'rules' are only guides that represent the past experience of others. Including your professors who are most likely biased toward a particular style. Who may, or may not , know better than you do.

But I never did well in arts courses. I resented the one ethics course I had to take as a graduate student b/c it kept me out of the lab. My Dept head nearly failed me b/c I wasn't showing up. So I caved; went to the bare minimum of classes to pass & brought a book to read.

So I may not be the best person to have this argument with.

[miSSleepy]

That NEED be applied? No, I don't believe it. The use of tools in any craft is always optional.

Of course it needs to be applied.
Can you make furniture without skills or tools? Can you paint a picture without a brush or proper technique? No ...

One of the thiings that happens in an academic journey is the realization that all those 'rules' are only guides that represent the past experience of others.

To some extent. However, past experiences and past styles of writing are very different to that of today's rules and styles. And it's not so much as applying the rules in the case of this thread, but applying some sort of sufficient technique.

No one can inherently write

Including your professors who are most likely biased toward a particular style. Who may, or may not , know better than you do.

I've had many professors, and they've all been different, all preferring different things. I haven't only confined myself to university professors either. There's a lot of opinion out there. Just as there is lots of opinion about what a good painting looks like, there's always a common belief: you need SKILL, and TOOLS. Once you got them, then you can start breaking the rules.

If this thread had gone too far, maybe it should be locked. I'm happy to stop. But as long as people keep posting I will keep responding...

[IndiReloaded]

Of course it needs to be applied.
Can you make furniture without skills or tools? Can you paint a picture without a brush or proper technique? No ...

Yes, actually I can. I might choose to simply throw paint into a strong wind onto a canvas, from a ladder of varying heights. No tools whatever required.

Or I might choose to use acid to etch out patterns on furniture, rather than using traditional tools. You're only limited by your imagination.

But I suspect you're still an undergraduate, right? You are still in the absorption phase rather than the independent thinking phase, I perceive. If you are only interesting in producing work that will by judged by *others* standards, then you are on the right path. Stick to the tried & true rules & the masses will reward you. If you are interesting in originality, tho, and by that I mean *true* innovation, then you will need to find a way out of the box your are currently in. Its a journey we're all on tho, and some do this better than others. Just something to think about. Or not, as you wish.

[miSSleepy]

Yes, actually I can. I might choose to simply throw paint into a strong wind onto a canvas, from a ladder of varying heights. No tools whatever required.

Or I might choose to use acid to etch out patterns on furniture, rather than using traditional tools. You're only limited by your imagination.

the ladder is a tool, the acid is a tool - I never said traditional tools need to be used. I said tools.

But I suspect you're still an undergraduate, right? You are still in the absorption phase rather than the independent thinking phase, I perceive. If you are only interesting in producing work that will by judged by *others* standards, then you are on the right path. Stick to the tried & true rules & the masses will reward you. If you are interesting in originality, tho, and by that I mean *true* innovation, then you will need to find a way out of the box your are currently in. Its a journey we're all on tho, and some do this better than others. Just something to think about. Or not, as you wish.

I believe you yourself admitted that you're not the one to have this argument.
I'm not an undergraduate in creative writing, I'm an undergraduate in teaching. But that has little to do with whether one is at the independant thinking phase, as you put it. This thread isn't about my writing, it's about one single poem the OP posted - and you cannot tell me that that poem is original and innovative.
But of course I'm interested in originality, who isn't? Yet originality isn't something you get inherently by completing a degree, it isn't something you get for a LONG time. Innovation, originality etc come AFTER you learn how to do things by the book, because you need to know the craft inside out.

Once you put something out publicly, it WILL be judged by the masses. Art is there to affect and inspire others, to give them something to think about - and you do this with TOOLS AND TECHNIQUE. If you can't, then you have failed. If you're writing for yourself, put it into a BLOG, your diary, show it to your friends ... but don't expect a stranger to fawn over it.

I'm not in a box here, I'm being realistic. All these notions you're going on about - THAT'S a box.

[IndiReloaded]

the ladder is a tool, the acid is a tool - I never said traditional tools need to be used. I said tools.

Great, I'm glad you agree. Now, let's extend your argument... you said in your last post that these need to be applied with "proper technique". Tell me, what's the 'proper technique for throwing paint onto a canvas?

You're not convincing anyone here Missy, least of all me. Esp when I know your posts are coming from the background of these kinds of gems:

poetry is not for one person

Simply wrong. And you contradicted yourself later on this.

your little work up there is the epitome of creativeness I bet.

Condescending sarcasm.

Until you give me a reason why your poem is any good... you're going to be a total ignoramus.

Direct insults. You say you are in education? God, I hope you don't motivate your students this way.

no poetic technique except for one useless rhyme.

Puts downs.

Yes, I would say you have a definite box problem. Here's some food for thought, Missy. You could have said what you thought was *good* about his poem & then made suggestions about how to make it better.

Come to think of it, why don't you post some of your own stuff on here? There's at least a couple of published authors on here (including myself). Let's see if you can take as good as you give. Show everyone evidence of your talent & knowledge.


No? I thought not.

[anachronistic]

Me

and

You.

When will we ever be
together?

You promised it will be now.
Instead its never

Take out the when, contract it will to it'd

i like it