Protestant Family and my search for truth.

[anachronistic]

Ummm but that is what the quote says in the first part of it. . Defining evil is tricky in the first place.

I guess that went over my head. Oh yeah, evil is a very difficult thing to define, I agree.

[IndiReloaded]

I disagree. There are all kinds of evils in this world that have not even a slight association with religion. You can be almost completely ignorant and realize that.

Steve Weinberg is a physicist. Tho guys aren't always good with language, lol. For an equation about it tho, you can't find anyone better.

[Mish]

I doubt it, but time will tell. Atheists don't build churches, don't try to 'convert' ppl & don't form coalition groups to try to change consitutions. Oh, and we don't have a bible either (unless you want to call 'Origin of Species' a bible).

They do/did. They just live/lived in other countries from you and you didn't hear about them. Atheism like Religion is not one big happy family of acolytes. Atheists as well as Religious people are devided by colour, ethnicity, nationality, tribes, ideas on atheism, definitions of what atheism is and other factors. There are some atheists which are good and some which want to impose their ways on others at the barrel of a gun who are bad.

You can't define all Atheists as these Godly altruistic people fighting against the evil Religion. Reality doesn't reflect that.

I still think you are confused about soviets, communism and atheism. This sounds too similar to LWs link about the church bombing in (Egypt?) being blamed on 'atheists'.

In any case, if you really believe that, then I guess its good the Berlin Wall came down & we got rid of those violent athesists, hmmm?

Once again Indi. It was in answer to your statement ""When has a group of athesists EVER threatened any religion?"."

Well there were/are a group of atheists who threatened a Religion, and you know it

[boobaa]

Atheism or Religion are not inherently evil, it's just people are people. You get an evil person behind any one and they'll try to shape it into a weapon.

Are you saying that some people born evil?

Sorry, but I don't support that Volataire like opinion. After 20 years, my life, after all the research and observations, how some people and I have changed while growing up, I am sure enough to say that society makes the people. And yes, even you and I make the society. And telling that you can see the evil in someones eyes is just ignorant.

And religion? Religion is nothing more than common moral codec put in frames with few extras. I personally don't like religion much because I think it distances people from natural flow of morality. Such things as 'do not make something to another that you don't want to be done to yourself' should be taught through the sayings and actions of your parents, not by the written word in some strict book. Moral and ethics is not the action of obeying, its the art of making choices.

And if someone stating that religious people are better people, make the ethically right choices etc, then show me because I haven't seen the proof to that. They are all the same to me... You could still do sins in Christianity, for example, because you are baptized and can always ask for forgiveness, and you go to the Paradise anyway...

[Mish]

Atheism is new and dominant since recently?

As a major ideological/political force, yes.

The first humans on earth were Atheists.

I'm not very sure about that OV. It's human nature to believe. Almost every single culture or earliest tribe found have had some form of a deity. From Europe to Middle East to Asia to Australia, every Indiginous population has had a God/Gods/Religion in one way or another. I imagine for the very first humans on earth the very natural elements like the sun and the earth could have been Gods which they could have worshipped. Religion just combines people's individual beliefs into some form of a system.

[Mish]

Are you saying that some people born evil?

No, that's exactly what I'm not saying

[vashti]

I believe people are born "evil"... It's just that evil is now called "mental illness". There is a certain amount of brain pathophysiology involved in mental illness/evil.

[Mish]

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg

I will never let this thread die!

That's a good quote, I like it Gribble. Though I think Steven forgot to mention that good people still do evil things even without Religion.

Religion is a fact of life, not an anomaly. It has been here since the dawn of human evolution and will probably continue to be here long into the future. Because no matter how many Scientific advancements there are, there will always be something unknown and unexplained which needs some form of classification and classifying that as unknown historically for people is not good enough. I accept that there will always be room for belief in one form or another.

[Only-virgins]

I'm not very sure about that OV. It's human nature to believe. Almost every single culture or earliest tribe found have had some form of a deity. From Europe to Middle East to Asia to Australia, every Indiginous population has had a God/Gods/Religion in one way or another. I imagine for the very first humans on earth the very natural elements like the sun and the earth could have been Gods which they could have worshipped. Religion just combines people's individual beliefs into some form of a system.

No, I am pretty sure they were trying to just survive and not get eaten.

[Mish]

No, I am pretty sure they were trying to just survive and not get eaten.

And thanking the Gods for keeping them out of harms way (Those who survived ofcourse)

[Only-virgins]

Religion is a fact of life, not an anomaly. It has been here since the dawn of human evolution and will probably continue to be here long into the future. Because no matter how many Scientific advancements there are, there will always be something unknown and unexplained which needs some form of classification and classifying that as unknown historically for people is not good enough. I accept that there will always be room for belief in one form or another.

Yea, that is where religion always just simply changes the ideas it holds when science explains more and more away. It can't stay consistent at all. I don't get angry with religious buffs, even when they are at my door. I tell them no thank you and close the door. I have a problem though with being called an atheist. I don't believe there should be a word to describe someone who is free thinking and logical. Other than free thinking and logical.

Take this for example, a human being comes along and he has lived in a culture/family that has no religion. In-fact the idea of god never came up and he/she was never exposed to it. What is he? is he an atheist? well yes...but he isn't a part of some religion. I mean basically what makes me annoyed is that people are making it sound like atheist belong to some cult with out even clarifying them self into one.

And thanking the Gods for keeping them out of harms way (Those who survived ofcourse)

Thank evolution for you standing up right, getting a juicier brain, and five fingers with an opposing thumb to create tools that even the strongest of bears, lions, and Wolves are forced to fear. I think that is an insult and spit in their face Mish, to say they couldn't handle themself. I am going to punch the first person who tells me thank god you did great to graduate school.....**** god...I DID IT! HARD ASS MOTHER****ING WORK! from beginning to end. I would take it as an insult.

[Mish]

Yea, that is where religion always just simply changes the ideas it holds when science explains more and more away.

It's true in a way. However Science will never be able to explain everything (An area will always exist beyond approach and testing), thus some form of Religion will always be there. Like it or not.

It can't stay consistent at all.

That's true. However Scientific ideas and understanding are known to change as well with time.

I don't get angry with religious buffs, even when they are at my door. I tell them no thank you and close the door. I have a problem though with being called an atheist. I don't believe there should be a word to describe someone who is free thinking and logical. Other than free thinking and logical.

Take this for example, a human being comes along and he has lived in a culture/family that has no religion. In-fact the idea of god never came up and he/she was never exposed to it. What is he? is he an atheist? well yes...but he isn't a part of some religion. I mean basically what makes me annoyed is that people are making it sound like atheist belong to some cult with out even clarifying them self into one.

I understand what you're trying to say OV. That you can't simply fit everyone into the same basket because certain people even though they are atheist they are very different to other atheists, culturally or maybe even in definition of Atheism itself. I agree that there should be a broader definition of the term and how it applies to people. However, the same is also true with Religion, it too comes in many shapes and forms. There are Religions which don't even have any diety to worship yet are still classified as Religions (Or cults). I guees the nature of these debates is such that if people didn't automatically fall into one area or the other the debates themselves would collapse due to the lack of any structure.

Though I agree with you, that just because you are a non-theist that shouldn't automatically make you fall into some sort of group of an Atheist brotherhood (even though such do exist).

Thank evolution for you standing up right, getting a juicier brain, and five fingers with an opposing thumb to create tools that even the strongest of bears, lions, and Wolves are forced to fear. I think that is an insult and spit in their face Mish, to say they couldn't handle themself. I am going to punch the first person who tells me thank god you did great to graduate school.....**** god...I DID IT! HARD ASS MOTHER****ING WORK! from beginning to end. I would take it as an insult.

Well, I was just pointing out the facts that from the dawn of human evolution tribes and communities of people chose to attribute their survival and over all success to themselves as well as forces beyond their control. Why? Maybe because these communities were more productive knowing that something great was on their side than the ones that didn't? I don't know, it's open to speculation. But since almost every single human community (even ones that evolved in isolation) chose to follow this path I choose to believe that Religion is inherent within the human nature itself.

[boobaa]

I believe people are born "evil"... It's just that evil is now called "mental illness". There is a certain amount of brain pathophysiology involved in mental illness/evil.

Ugh, ok, any examples?
I think mental illness does not necessarily mean evil, there needs to be a trigger that turns it into one. Shure there may be an illness that causes people to get angry very easily etc, but then again, anger is triggered by something.

[Gribble]

What about the inhuman monsters who snap and go on killing rampages? I don't care if it's a mental illness or not, every effort should be taken to capture them alive just so they can be tortured to death.

[IndiReloaded]

Once again Indi. It was in answer to your statement ""When has a group of athesists EVER threatened any religion?"."

Well there were/are a group of atheists who threatened a Religion, and you know it

Mish, you will ALWAYS be able to find specific instances of a group of irrational ppl doing things under some label they choose for themselves. And yes, the same is true for religious groups tho I think they are particularly predisposed to it b/c of their belief system. I don't agree w/your particular example for the reasons I already said, I think your logic is biased, but I do think its just a matter of time before some irrational ppl calling themselves 'atheist' does something just as silly as various religious groups. I agree w/OV & I too have a problem w/rational thought & logic being labelled anything.

I am frankly not interested in specific instances, as there will always be an 'exception to the rule'. I am interested in whether religion leads to irrational thinking & predisposes to violence. I think it does, and there is PLENTY of historical & recent data to support this.

Rather than spending pages restating obvious arguments, I'll just give you a quote from one of Dick's interviews on this issue. Argue with him if you will:

It is easy for religious faith, even if it is irrational in itself, to lead a sane and decent person, by rational, logical steps, to do terrible things. There is a logical path from religious faith to evil deeds. There is no logical path from atheism to evil deeds. Of course, many evil deeds are done by individuals who happen to be atheists. But it can never be rational to say that, because of my nonbelief in religion, it would be good to be cruel, to murder, to oppress women, or to perpetrate any of the evils on the Hitchens list.

The link for the entire article is here, if you wish:
[url]http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/richard_dawkins/2007/10/for_good_people_to_go_evil_thi.html[/url]

I have already recommended his book. Or, if you have issue w/Dawkins rather blunt commentary, try anything on this subject by Bertrand Russell.