Protestant Family and my search for truth.

[IndiReloaded]

And some argue that the absence of anything outside one's own experience cannot exist. That is an assumption based on prejudice, not fact. The burden of proof does not fall to the person with the experience. It falls to the person without experience to enter into the same actuality before they can take part in an educated conversation. Otherwise, it just useless rhetoric.

Are you telling me that a scientist needs to become religious before I can say they are crazy for believing in something for which there is absolutely no concrete proof? There's a circular argument if I've ever heard one. Speaking of rhetoric.

LOL, I really, really like this poster.

[Tiay]

I guess if we took it to that definition, then Buddhism isn't very much of a religion. And if Buddhism wasn't a religion there wouldn't be any controversies between my beliefs in Buddhism and Christianity. But that's not true. They do cause conflicts. The same conflicts that arise between Atheism and Christianity.

If you can prove that point, I will eat my own words.

true, I don't consider Buddhism to be as.. "religionie" as, say, Christianity. Wikipedia starts by saying "Buddhism is a set of teachings often described as a religion", and I don't really know enough about Buddhism to judge.. so, correct me if i'm wrong. Buddhism doesn't have a divine being as such, but there is mention of re-birth and quite a lot of rules for living morally and so on. What happens when you break the rules? do they believe in retribution, that some universal force or law will punish you, or you'll get reborn as a worm or something? That'd definitely make it a religion in my view. But if it's just a guide for moral living laid down by, presumably, the original Buddah, then it's kind of more of a following than a religion.

that concludes the Buddhism part.. Now I wanna pick apart the other part of your post 'cos I don't think I got it..

And if Buddhism wasn't a religion there wouldn't be any controversies between my beliefs in Buddhism and Christianity. But that's not true. They do cause conflicts. The same conflicts that arise between Atheism and Christianity.

so, you're saying, if something isn't a religion, then that means there wont be a conflict with a religion like Christianity? But, if there obviously IS a clash, then that means the something must be a religion?

Let's say the something is murder, or premarital sex. Are those religions? Of course not. Do they clash with Christianity nevertheless? Yes. Does that make them religions? No. Lots of things clash with Christianity without being religions. Just because there's a clash between Atheism and Christianity doesn't prove anything.

edit: hm, I guess, if I assume that Buddhism is nothing more mystical than simply teachings on how to live morally, then it can co-exist with Christianity. You can follow Buddhist teachings as long as they don't come into direct conflict with Christian teachings, and as long as you still actually believe in the christian god and do what christianity requires, etc. However, skimming over the wikipedia article on Buddhism makes me think there is some non-science stuff in there, essences and such stuff. That'd probably be in conflict with the bible. but, again, i don't actually know enough detail about either to say conclusively.

[IndiReloaded]

Buddhism is certainly a religion.

[run2white]

Lol...

yeah, you just have to be in the lab to witness the research before you can call the researcher crazy...otherwise...maybe they're on to something just a little beyond our confirmed reality...

–that seems to be the way discovery (and enlightenment) works–

[Tiay]

Are you telling me that a scientist needs to become religious before I can say they are crazy for believing in something for which there is absolutely no concrete proof? There's a circular argument if I've ever heard one. Speaking of rhetoric.

thank you, indie ^.^

[IndiReloaded]

Lol...

yeah, you just have to be in the lab to witness the research before you can call the researcher crazy...otherwise...maybe they're on to something just a little beyond our confirmed reality...

–that seems to be the way discovery (and enlightenment) works–

Hey! But the difference is that the results are published and made publicly available. If anyone cares to repeat the experiment & see for themselves they can. Not so for religious proof of God.

Science doesn't ask anyone to take an experimental result on faith.

[anachronistic]

edit: hm, I guess, if I assume that Buddhism is nothing more mystical than simply teachings on how to live morally, then it can co-exist with Christianity.

Well some teachings do, but there are quite a few that don't. You should really read about it, I think you'd find it interesting.

[vashti]

That's because your position as an agnostic is basically "I don't know"

Not exactly. It means "I don't know, and neither do you."

[Only-virgins]

Atheism is a religion, believe it or not. Accept it or not.

Believing that the idea of god is ridiculous in the first place is a religion? I guess about as much as a car is a piece of pie. I guess not believing in the ninja turtles is a religion as well. I never knew that as soon as religion was invented by man ( and it was invented) it instantly made everyone else a religious atheist. that is silly, that is like telling a child who was born in a world where god and religion are not even mentioned and than telling him his religion is Atheism. Agnostics are just Atheists that are to lazy to argue. The possibility of so many different gods is so astounding that it alone makes a single religion sound silly and also refutes the fear idea that it is better to believe because it is not worth risking a place in hell if you are wrong...funny thing is that you can believe and STILL be wrong.

[IndiReloaded]

Agnostic = a Pastafarian on the Atkins diet.

[Only-virgins]

Agnostic = a Pastafarian on the Atkins diet.

lol I guess the other way around as well.

[anachronistic]

Believing that the idea of god is ridiculous in the first place is a religion? I guess about as much as a car is a piece of pie. I guess not believing in the ninja turtles is a religion as well. I never knew that as soon as religion was invented by man ( and it was invented) it instantly made everyone else a religious atheist. that is silly, that is like telling a child who was born in a world where god and religion are not even mentioned and than telling him his religion is Atheism. Agnostics are just Atheists that are to lazy to argue. The possibility of so many different gods is so astounding that it alone makes a single religion sound silly and also refutes the fear idea that it is better to believe because it is not worth risking a place in hell if you are wrong...funny thing is that you can believe and STILL be wrong.

Atheism is not only the rejection of god from Christianity, but all gods, that this world was not created and came about through other means. A religion is a set of beliefs about what was before and what will be after. *shrug* I guess if the ninja turtles somehow magically had something to do with that then it would be a religion.

[Only-virgins]

Atheism is not only the rejection of god from Christianity, but all gods, that this world was not created and came about through other means. A religion is a set of beliefs about what was before and what will be after. *shrug* I guess if the ninja turtles somehow magically had something to do with that then it would be a religion.

No it doesn't. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Being an Atheist has nothing to do with your opinion of what happened during the creation of the universe. In-fact I completely ignore the idea of any creation or end of the universe till we have something better as evidence to rely on. I have no opinion or belief of the creation of the universe and we don't even know if it was created at all in the first place...could have just always been. Atheism is simply the rejection of the theory of god...thats it...before the idea of god everyone was an atheist they just didn't know the word. Dogs and Cats are atheist they are to stupid for their own good to care about pointless fairy tales like god. I think some animals are smarted than theists because they don't have the mental ability to be stupid on purpose lol.

[anachronistic]

No it doesn't. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Being an Atheist has nothing to do with your opinion of what happened during the creation of the universe. In-fact I completely ignore the idea of any creation or end of the universe till we have something better as evidence to rely on. I have no opinion or belief of the creation of the universe and we don't even know if it was created at all in the first place...could have just always been. Atheism is simply the rejection of the theory of god...thats it...before the idea of god everyone was an atheist they just didn't know the word. Dogs and Cats are atheist they are to stupid for their own good to care about pointless fairy tales like god. I think some animals are smarted than theists because they don't have the mental ability to be stupid on purpose lol.

How the **** are they smarter if they don't have the CAPACITY? What are you smoking, man? Holy jumping fücking shitballs. Talk about a contradiction.

Seems like you didn't read all of my post, or you misunderstood something. Because you basically just reworded what I said. Which means that's the dumbest thing you've ever written.

[Tiay]

Not exactly. It means "I don't know, and neither do you."

ah, but I do know.

And because that sounds incredibly stuck up, let me explain.

I agree that of course I don't know; and I can't possibly know. But, there's a hitch with that. I ALSO can't know if my brain is actually in a vat somewhere. I ALSO can't possibly know if my life is an illusion and nothing really exists.

but, assuming that you can't know if anything is real at all makes it a bit hard to have a proper debate about anything. Hey, if I can't be sure i'm even typing on a keyboard right now, then everything else could be false too. So, for the sake of argument, we must assume that we know this stuff, that I know it is a keyboard (even though, in theory, I can't possibly know) and in the same sense, I know there is no god.

ie, saying "I don't know if god exists" means that you must also say and "I don't know if my life is an illusion or not" because again, those things you also can't know. But, obviously, then you are logically bound to consider every possibility, including silly stuff like unicorns and spaghetti monsters, and that's kind of a bummer.

Atheism is not only the rejection of god from Christianity, but all gods, that this world was not created and came about through other means. A religion is a set of beliefs about what was before and what will be after. *shrug* I guess if the ninja turtles somehow magically had something to do with that then it would be a religion.

again, by that definition, science could be a religion simply because I believe that, say, the big bang is the most likely theory on how the universe was created. Science also tells me what happens to me after I die.
but obviously, science is not a religion. But your definition of religion as it is must include science; that's a tip off that your definition is off.

edit: oh relax, OV doesn't honestly think that animals are smarter than theists. At least, I hope not, because that'd be silly. He's just being a bit mean, the rest of his argument is in tact.