(Hypothetical) - Dark Secrets

[GrkScorp]

If a person is working at a low level job, but is buying high end items on a regular basis, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that she/he is going to have a deficit at some point. Another red flag is if they are always broke or use credit cards to pay for everything.

Quite honestly, I think it is foolish to marry someone who is in debt and spends frivolously. It seems quite excessive to ask to see bank statements, though. The way a couple will manage their finances after they marry is a subject that needs to be negotiated. Expecting that someone saves and invests their own money before they marry exactly as you would like them to seems controlling, and would be a gigantic red flag to me.

Well.., to give more info on why this question came up.., a couple of my classmates were talking about marriage.., and then the issue of divorce.., looking up the top reasons why people get divorced.., where the biggest disagreements rest.., and shockingly.., sex is not number one.., it was finances.. Something I found unusual.., only because it's so easy to check for beforehand.. (this is what lawyers do btw.., we converse about useless general hypothetical situations like these all the time..)

So we could assume.., that was one way to go.., but that wouldn't really give a definitive answer.., that wouldn't be enough.., I trust the other person.., but I know that if someone's finances are not in place.., and mine are.., then they would feel ashamed.., and get defensive.., and start comming up with reasons why it doesn't really matter.. trying to dodge the question..

Like I said.., only AFTER she gets to see a copy of all those documents from the guy.., inspect them closely.., THEN the guy will only get to see a copy of her documents.., and she will get to take them away and keep them afterwards..

The way we all see it as guys is.., if you have nothing to hide.., then what are you afraid of? Here is who I am.., income verification.., credit profile.., and a history of how I manage my cashflows.., I guess income verification is not really that important.., some idiot raised the point.., but now that I think about it.., the point is not to check for income or earnings.., only to see how her attitude is towards managing money..

The cause for such a request.., is pretty obvious.., marriage is around the corner.., the guy is asking for assurance.., making sure he is not going to regret this aspect of the marriage later on.., and establishing a basis of the bargain.., (if the documents are fake or there is misrepresentation which takes place.., the entire validity of the marriage contract can fall apart and be challenged)

A friend of mine who is specializing in Divorce.., cited a case where exactly one year and one day after being married (just covering the one year limitation).., the wife made her husband aware of the fact that she was a drug addict prior to the marriage taking place.., and that she was $30,000 in debt.., the court found that the husband was to assume half of the liability ($15,000).., because of his failure to investigate prior to the marriage.., and no misprepresentation or fraud taking place on her part.., the court saw that he was willing to accept her "as is".., including her prior debts.. After the divorce however.., the husband disovered through his lawyer.., that wasn't his wife's first trip to divorce court.., just a year and a half prior to getting married.., she was divorced once more.., (again.., just past the 1 year limitation.., only this unlucky guy had to assume half of a $60,000 bill.., reducing her share to $30,000).., he appealed and won

More importantly than any latent defects that come along with the whole package.., I personally believe that it's very important to share the same mentality towards finances with the person you're going to marry.., I don't consider divorce normal.. that's a mistake.., not a solution.., I'm a believer in getting married just once.., not saying "oh.., oppsie" later on.., So not only is it important for when i'm alive.., but mostly for when I pass away.., I want to know that me and my wife had the same mentality when it came the managing our financial resources.., and that if or when i'm gone.., and she survives me.., she'll be able to do what is best.. not just for herself.., but for our children and grandchildren..

[GrkScorp]

GS, I think the issue may be not so much that you want to get an idea of a potential partner’s sense of financial responsibility, but what you are asking for as ‘proof’. I think the reasons have to do with concerns about only being interested in someone b/c of their money.

Now, if you are considering marriage, I think it’s reasonable to ask about assets, debt, investments, income. Especially if there is a large discrepancy b/t partners & you are considering a prenup. Nowadays, ppl own entire homes, 401Ks, etc before getting married. I happen to think that, just in case a marriage dissolves, partners should each leave w/what they came in with & split whatever was earned during the marriage. That said, I still think there are more subtle ways to ask for the early info. Presumably your partner will know by then you are a tax accountant, so it is perfectly reasonable that you would help them with their return at some point. You’ll already know about her job & her lifestyle based on observation.

Hope this helps.

It does Indi.., thank you..

Unless her family has net assets of $10,000,000+ I'm not exactly marrying her for her money.., I actually have the opposite concern.., which is why no matter what.., there's going to be a detailed prenup.., no prenup.., no marriage.. and it's not because I don't love you or trust you.., I do.., with all my heart.., but the law doesn't.., and.., people change.., paper doesn't..

Personally.., I could just feel it.., if someone's finances are not in place.., you can usually tell.., it's something you can pretty accurately gauge for.., and then pick up on very obvious and powerful vibes here and there.., but at the end of the day.., i'm still a guy.., and yes damn it.., a numbers guy.., I want to see something substantial.., I don't feel comfortable saying.., "I feel you don't manage your money the right way".., I would feel a lot more comfortable being able to say.., "From what I see here.., it doesn't look like you're doing a good job of managing your money".., or hopefully.., "Wow.., are you sure you're not an accountant?"..

The reason i'm asking.., is because we just wanted to know how women would feel about it.., and I think Tiay touched on the reason they would feel slightly insulted or offened a little bit.., (because they would take it to mean a lack of trust).., fair

And just to clarify.., no.., nobody (at least not me).., is going to go up to someone and say something to the tune of.. "I want your XYZ papers on my desk today.., no later than 6pm.., just want to check and verify XYZ.., go.., get moving.., time is money!".., (someone I know would actually say that btw).., but it would definitely be a long "talk".., you guys know me by now.., not going to give it a second thought if I have to take a direct approach.., but I do prefer an indirect approach.., especially for situations like these..

[Gigabitch]

A friend of mine who is specializing in Divorce.., cited a case where exactly one year and one day after being married (just covering the one year limitation).., the wife made her husband aware of the fact that she was a drug addict prior to the marriage taking place.., and that she was $30,000 in debt.., the court found that the husband was to assume half of the liability ($15,000).., because of his failure to investigate prior to the marriage.., and no misprepresentation or fraud taking place on her part.., the court saw that he was willing to accept her "as is".., including her prior debts.

Um, in what state did this interesting judgment occur? I have never heard of anything so bizarre in my life.

FYI- I would feel a bit awkward about it, as I have never had anyone put their nose into my finances, including my ex-husband. We kept our money separate. He didn't even have any credit, but that didn't affect my rating at all.

[vashti]

I suggest you rethink your plan. There are smarter ways to determine if the average person is financially stable, and I think it is obvious most people - for a variety of reasons - wouldn't tolerate being asked for these records.

Hey indi - did you sign a pre-nup? I was asked, but refused. Obviously, he married me anyway.

[AnotherPoster]

What the hell are you on about, AP? You're spewing all kinds of philosophical babble that, at the end of the day, doesn't pay your rent & doesn't get you fed. How old are you?

Relationships can't LIVE on feelings. I'm not saying love isn't important, but there are practical issues that need addressing in order to be able to have the freedom to explore those feelings.

In other words, its hard to love somebody when the collection agency is knocking at your door.

My age isn't crucial. I am paying my rent and feeding myself.

Of course there are practical issues involved, such as financial management, but these should be discussed together in a less malovelent/direct manner than asking for proof.

You are going to realise that there is a collection agency knocking on your partner's door if this partner doesn't how to fend for him/herself prior to commitment. Unless s/he is a compulsive liar, in which case you have far greater issues.

I wasn't the one to bring up Aristotle. In fact, I'm trying to steer away from philosophical babble.

Does it grind your gears that not everone is infatuated with $?
Most poeple appear to be bothered by it. Prenup this, prenup that. *vomits all over prenups* You can have a fairly ideal stance and still do pretty well for yourself. Some people would rather be left without a penny than display such lack of faith in their partner. And that's that. You deal with the consequences of having faith in people.

You’ll already know about her job & her lifestyle based on observation.

Bingo. The gist of it was stated earlier:
"What and how I am spending, what and how he is spending, is no secret. The insult lies in the question you're going to/wanting to pose."
Simply because you phrased it differently doesn't making it any less philosophical. If you have had to sacrifice some principles along the way, that's none of my business. I'm giving the OP my opinion (albeit not helpful), not spewing any kind of babble.

The fact that logical fallacies exist isn't a reason to discard logic.

No, it is not. However, personal preferences factor in, and your logic will inevitably be considered illogical by someone. As will mine.

Tiay is spot on:

um, yes. Miso said it. Heck if this hypothetical guy knew me at all he'd know what I'm like with money.
So then asking for my records just seems like a display of distrust.
Or if had not come up in conversation in as much depth as he was looking for, he could've started a conversation about it, rather than demanding papers.

[IndiReloaded]

My age isn't crucial. I am paying my rent and feeding myself.

Does it grind your gears that not everone is infatuated with $?
Most poeple appear to be bothered by it. Prenup this, prenup that. *vomits all over prenups* You can have a fairly ideal stance and still do pretty well for yourself. Some people would rather be left without a penny than display such lack of faith in their partner. And that's that. You deal with the consequences of having faith in people.

LOL, AP. My guess is you're a young 20-something undergraduate who just finished their English & Philosophy 206 courses and are trying out the ideas on for size. You aren't, I'm guessing, old enough or experienced enough to take these philosophies to heart. Get some experience first before starting to believe your own hype is what I'm saying.

[AnotherPoster]

LOL, AP. My guess is you're a young 20-something undergraduate who just finished their English & Philosophy 206 courses and are trying out the ideas on for size. You aren't, I'm guessing, old enough or experienced enough to take these philosophies to heart. Get some experience first before starting to believe your own hype is what I'm saying.

I'd have guessed the same in your position, and it's a fair assumption. But, no.

I haven't finished a thing. I'm just getting started. And I quit. This thread. No, that's not my course. No, I am not a young 20-something. More towards 7 years of age. And I hope to stay that way.
There's nothing to belittle about my experiences, unfortunately. Or anyone else's, no matter how old or young or how educated or not. Resort to personal attacks all you want, but I've dealt with them all my life. I'm a pretty lonesome person, as far as they come, as a result of this. I come on forums like these to share perspective. To talk to people. People. Not so sure if I want anything to do with them if they immediately jump to conclusions like these.

He's not interested to see how much of it you have.., he's just interested to see how you manage it.., if you're more of a saver.. or a spender..,

You don't need to see a person's credit report to figure this out.
End of.

Academia? Meh.

[IndiReloaded]

Resort to personal attacks all you want, but I've dealt with them all my life. I'm a pretty lonesome person, as far as they come, as a result of this. I come on forums like these to share perspective. To talk to people. People. Not so sure if I want anything to do with them if they immediately jump to conclusions like these.

So I'm wrong then. Big deal. But your ideas do seem incongruent w/your experience.You have a tendency, even in your last parting shot to be dismissive of that which you have little experience with. And I do think that's a problem mindset to be in. I've seen it many times before. Take it for what its worth to you, or not.

[GrkScorp]

Um, in what state did this interesting judgment occur? I have never heard of anything so bizarre in my life

New York obviously.., why would we care to study about any other state in such detail? There's nothing bizarre about it.., abscent a prenupt.., he's a sitting duck.., he was the one who filed.., and NY happens to obviously by the only fcukn' state that hasn't adopted the system of no-fault divorce.., so he pretty much screwed himself over.., assets and liabilities are split right down the middle.., since she had nothing but for debt.., she gets half his assets.., he gets half her liabilities.., fair no? (didn't think so either)

There's zero flexibility when it comes to pre-nupts.., it's not something that's negotiable.., if she doesn't want to sign it.., the door is right there.., and I insist that she leave.. quicker if she uses the words "trust" or "love".., and I won't feel an ounce of guilt or shame.., she doesn't have to agree to my version.., we can eventually settle on a modified version.., but unless we both mutually agree to one final version.., marriage is out of the picture.. there's a greater chance we get divorced than getting heads on a fair coin toss.., it's a very real possibility.., and I want the sense of security of being prepared ahead of time.. It has nothing to do with trust.., it has to do with "what if things don't work out.. for whatever reason.. what then?" (but if you love me and trust me.., we'll be together forever!)..,

"but what if we're not? what if you feel that i'm irresponsible and lazy all of a sudden during the marriage.., i'm neglecting you.., and you can't stand living like this anymore? what if we both grow a little too comfortable with eachother.., and lose any incentive to make eachother happy anymore? are you saying that you would rather we feel trapped to stay with eachother if that happens? I'm not OK with that.., but from what you're saying.., it seems like you're more than ok with that.., as if you're putting in all this effort now..., prior to the marriage.., just to motivate me to want to marry you.., and then it's going to suddenly stop after we get married.., i'm sorry.., but that's not at all my idea of love and trust.., i'm not getting married to someone that i'm going to feel trapped or obligated to be with.., I want to be with someone because I want to be with someone.., because that's what I choose to do.., where the only thing keeping me and her together is my love for her and my family.., not the law.., are you saying you don't think the our love will be enough to keep us together? then why bother getting married? and if the marriage is not worth keeping together.., we should at least agree ahead of time.., mutually.., how to best allow it to dissolve.., by me asking you to sign it.., i'm not showing you that I don't trust you or love you.., quite the opposite in fact.., but what you're showing me.., by you not wanting to sign it.., is that you don't exactly have the right intentions towards marriage.. I want to marry you.., but i'm not going to do that unless you sign right here.., and we can sit here and talk for as long as you like.., about anything you want.., until you sign.., but unless you do.., we can't get married.., i'm sorry.., it's all up to you.., I don't really care.., if you don't want to sign it.., then I guess we weren't right for eachother.., so it'll be a fresh new start for the both of us.., to keep looking for the right person.., or.., if you want to go ahead with it.., we can take a moment and just relax after this whole impass.., and draft up a final version.., it's up to you.., i'll respect your choice either way.., so.., what do you want to do?"

It all boils down to two options:

1. Agree on final version.., sign it.., go ahead with marriage
2. Fail to agree to final version.., fail to sign.., the door is right there.., no marriage

That's it.., getting married without a pre-nupt isn't even an option.., and it's very tragic to see people with a criminal amount of assets or earnings potential getting married without one.. Even more tragic.., to think about being trapped in a relationship with someone you're not happy with.. Or fighting for years in court over what you're going to do (after the fact).., It's a lot like Wills & Estates.., the time to plan everything is BEFORE you die.., and not create a situation where the whole family is torn apart over the estate.., Plan things AHEAD of time.., especially risks like divorce and death.., which are probably more likely and possible than we'd like to believe..

[Mish]

Resort to personal attacks all you want, but I've dealt with them all my life. I'm a pretty lonesome person, as far as they come, as a result of this.

Hey there AP, I'm sorry to hear that. Do you have a story for why this is? If yes I would really like to hear it

I come on forums like these to share perspective. To talk to people. People. Not so sure if I want anything to do with them if they immediately jump to conclusions like these.

That's what people are like I guess, it's all part of the interaction experience. Some good, some bad, but it's interesting none the less, yes?

You don't need to see a person's credit report to figure this out.

I guess it all comes down to the matter of trust. How much can you REALLY trust another person? There are some people I've known for a decade and they still do the kinds of things that make me question if I really know them. I guess what Scorp is trying to say with this, is there has to be some kind of a better way. better method that validates your trust in another person. And since financial accountability and commitment are one of the major problems that causes divorces he is just looking for ideas on how to make sure the person is fully trustworthy and accountable in that area before dedicating a life to them.

[AnotherPoster]

So I'm wrong then. Big deal. But your ideas do seem incongruent w/your experience.You have a tendency, even in your last parting shot to be dismissive of that which you have little experience with. And I do think that's a problem mindset to be in. I've seen it many times before. Take it for what its worth to you, or not.

Dismissing that which you've not had any experience of is, yes; it's called being closed minded. A person is not being close minded if s/he has looked into the idea of e.g. prenups and doesn't agree with them. We're all close minded in some respects.


And Indi. Stop pulling my god damn hair.

I'm not going to have anger sex with you.

[AnotherPoster]

Hey there AP, I'm sorry to hear that. Do you have a story for why this is? If yes I would really like to hear it


That's what people are like I guess, it's all part of the interaction experience. Some good, some bad, but it's interesting none the less, yes?


I guess it all comes down to the matter of trust. How much can you REALLY trust another person? I guess what Scorp is trying to say with this, is there has to be some kind of a better way.

Mostly due to my charming naivety, no doubt. You do learn who will take advantage of you and who won't with that sort of attitude, though, and that singles out the good and bad ones. And the inbetweeners.

Certainly. Everyone has a story to tell. We've all had those unpleasant encounters that have taught us a lot, eh? Sometimes we can't help but appreciate people's charisma (or something else), no matter how bastardly they might be.

Wholeheartedly as far as I'm concerned, but it depends entirely on the person. Few people are trustworthy, in my, according to IndiReloaded, meager experience. As for Scorp's hypothetical situation, they should sit down and have a conversation about it instead of testing each other with bank report requests. Most of you seem to agree with that.

[GrkScorp]

And Indi. Stop pulling my god damn hair.

I'm not going to have anger sex with you.

Hey hey.., just to be fair.., don't single out Indi.., a lot of people just come here to bust some people's balls.., (on that note: how do you know I didn't make this thread just to get you a little heated?.., better yet.., do you really think I care to argue about formal logic? do you have any idea how entertaining it is to see someone get heated up?) if you bite the bait.., then you better be ready to put up a fight to break free from the hook.. (pointer: don't bite the bait)

[GrkScorp]

As for Scorp's hypothetical situation, they should sit down and have a conversation about it instead of testing each other with bank report requests. Most of you seem to agree with that.

Not just most of us.., I even agree with that.., absolutely talk about it.., sit down and have a long talk about it.., not a high-pressure talk about it.., but a talk nonetheless..., and then what?

At some point during the talk.., the real issue is going to come up.., the person's attitude towards money.., if she owed $20,000 in credit card debt.., would that be something you could be reasonably certain that she would tell you? She would obviously be very ashamed to disclose that kind of information with you.. possibly afraid that it would end the relationship.., enough of an incentive to be dishonest about it.., all the right motives for someone to lie are in place.., you better believe it that no matter how much I trust her.., she's only human.., and it's only natural to respond to incentives.., so I need assurance on critical financial information.. that's the kind of information that's important to you.., and if you're going to be certain about the accuracy of that information through a conversation alone.., then yes.., during that conversation.., you're going to end up requesting to see eachother's credit report..

This isn't a question of "I trust that you would never cheat on me".., quite honestly.., I don't really care if you do or don't.., it doesn't cost me anything.., i'm no better or worse off if you do or don't.., I can live after the fact.., so whatever you choose to do.., i'm ok with it.., and i'm sure you would do the right thing.., because i'm sure you love me.., and you know I love you.., and we have that level of trust.., but when it comes to money.., i'm not telling you how to spend it.., you do what you want with it.., it's your life.., but if you're going to be a part of my life.., I need to be sure that i'm ok with the way you spend your money.., because it's no longer your money.., or my money.., it's our money.., (yes.., I know.., seperate accounts).., our assets.., and our liabilities.., and I don't want to take on any liabilities that I don't agree with.., if you owe $200,000 in student loans because of your MD, Ph.D, JD, or MBA.., we'll take that on together.., i'll be more than happy to share that with you.., but if you owe $20,000 in shoes and handbags.., that's all yours..

If she feels statements are too private and personal.., I can understand.., i'll respect that.., there are perhaps some things she doesn't want me to see.., perhaps things that go beyond finances.., and that's ok.. But there's nothing private or personal about a credit report.., it's only containing financial information.., and if she's seeming uneasy about a simple credit report (after she gets to see mine first).., then something is up.. someone is hiding something.., and it's not me..

[vashti]

I think you will have a hard time finding someone who will humor you in this regard. It seems as though you are looking for some sort of guarantee your marriage will be fool-proof, but it won't be. Marriage is a risky proposition. A girl who has been thrifty all her life may decide that life is too short to not enjoy, and may decide saving it all up isn't worth it in the end.

BTW - cheating (when it leads to divorce) will cost you plenty, especially if you have kids, and not just monetarily. That you are more worried about the money is kind of odd, really.