boobaa et al.

[GrkScorp]

I still didn't quite get it why are you especially referring to me. What posts are you referring to exactly? I've been critical to many things. Why not choose anti-americanism?

You should just call me the guy who tries to put tar on everything clean. because thats what I like to do.
I don't believe I am particulary sexist.

I know there is a lot going on in my head. A lot of stuff in society that bothers me and therefore I am very critical and whiny, but thats what I am.

Ugh.., it's not painting you out to be some sexist.., refer back to the first post where both genders have these pre-conceived stereotypes of the other gender.., you simply demonstrated to be on the other end of it.., seeing the negative side effects of having a stereotype cast on your gender.., and how it impacted your interactions with members of the other gender..

Secondly.., the reason I didn't pick anti-americanism.., is because it's love forum.., not the quarterly journal of political science..

[lesa]

You see, that is the conclusion *I* draw. That guys just naturally like things more technical in nature. However, feminists with their inferiority-complexes in the sciences will say it's owing to discrimination rather than different tastes and that something needs to be done to correct it. Look, girls just don't want to become engineers as much as guys do, and guys don't want to go into hairstyling as much as girls do. Just different interests

No, it's not discrimination. It's preference. I was a science and math geek. I was horrible at the social sciences and reading. I have a science degree and chemistry minor. I was told I should have gone into electrical engineering or computer science but I could not imagine torturing myself with all that calculus. But years later had to take a little calculus for another career in any case.

All the guys that I dated were into the humanities and social sciences. Not one in the hard sciences. I think that it depends on what you are surrounding by and enjoy. Many men are now into hairstyling and fields that were predominately female. I see that movement now….nursing, social work, accounting(?). Many women are going into medicine, pharmacy, biomedical engineering and in some cases they are the majority now. Over the years after being surrounded by humanities and social science majors more, I am better at it. Being less surrounded by people in the hard sciences I am not as good as I used to be. Some people are hesitant to go into a career that has one sex represented in large quantities. When I was little I wanted to go into construction and architecture but was afraid it would be too awkward. I am now more into interior design. I like being girly lol.

I believe these groups are trying to help the women feel more comfortable going into a male-dominated profession. Now advertisements are trying to have men feel more comfortable going into a female-dominated profession.

[IndiReloaded]

Life is choice. You CAN'T have it all & do it all well. The important thing is to make an informed choice & then stick with it. Men & women should support each other in their goals & celebrate their ability to help each other. Two, working together well, is stronger than one.

Here's an interesting observation:

It’s been proven repeatedly—female doctors “will not work the same hours or have the same lifespan of contributions to the medical system as males,” says Dr. Brian Day, president of the Canadian Medical Association (CMA). Family duties are at least partly to blame. Day’s own wife and his sister-in-law, both trained physicians, haven’t practised since having kids 10 years ago. Despite their demanding careers, women are still “given the bigger proportion of child care, housekeeping and elder care,” says Dr. Janet Dollin, president of the Federation of Medical Women of Canada. But this pressure comes with a price. Burnout—the workplace exhaustion to which females are particularly susceptible—drives many women out of medicine altogether.

If you want to read the original article, its here:

[url]http://www.macleans.ca/science/health/article.jsp?content=20080102_122329_6200[/url]

[GrkScorp]

That guys just naturally like things more technical in nature. However, feminists with their inferiority-complexes in the sciences will say it's owing to discrimination rather than different tastes and that something needs to be done to correct it.

You mean.., they're not ACTUALLY inferior.., but they only BELIEVE or FEEL that they are inferior or disadvantaged..

Look, girls just don't want to become engineers as much as guys do, and guys don't want to go into hairstyling as much as girls do. Just different interests

Yes.., but is that by their own free choice based on their actual skill-set.., likes.., and dislikes.., or have the last two been impacted and shaped by socially created gender roles? Do you see what would happen if it was the latter? Women with the same skill-sets or better.., would actually not choose to go into fields where it would be socially beneficial for them to go into based on their skill-set.., and would "choose" to supply a different kind of labor to an other market because of social pressure shaping her preferences.., in the long run.., this is detrimental to society..

And even more interesting to consider.., how the hell would one separate the two.., and control for genuine preferences?

When Kodak came to my middle school to tell us why math and science is important, they told the girls they are specifically hiring women now to try to offset the engineering fields from being so male-dominated. Gee, for a company going down the shitter so fast, I'd be more concerned about getting the most qualified person, male or female

Well.., if you really wanted to work at Kodak.., or any company for that matter.., and they denied your application or rejected you.., and you feel that it was because of a gender preference.., and additionally you believe that this gender preference is unjustified.., then you can:

- Bring a case under Title VII of the Civil Right's Act
- Argue how affirmative action programs can exist under Title VII
- Argue how they can't exist under Title VII (no discrimination OR preference given under the basis of.., race.., blah blah blah.., sex)
- Then demonstrate how female applicants are not the victims of discrimination.., but simply don't choose to work there
- Then conclude that giving special preferences in such a case would run in direct conflict with Title VII.., making it unconstitutional

However.., I don't think you really want to do all that.., just to work at Kodak..
(If I.., or anyone else would come across that case.., even if you won.., I would be laughing my ass off)

Best,

GrkScorp

[IndiReloaded]

What's wrong with admitting that someone is *inferior* to someone else's ability?

Are we so afraid to admit that someone else might actually be smarter/better/faster than we are at something? LOL.

Many of you are too young to even remember the feminist 70s, but what you probably don't know is that it took strong, self-assured MEN to help shift societal awareness about this issue. The powerless ones may have the issues, but it takes those in power to actually make effective change.

Now that we are coming full-circle, its going to take strong, self-assured WOMEN to make sure this balance is kept fair & meaningful. Part of this means letting go of the childish notion that "I can do anything a man/woman can & just as well as they."

Horse hooey. Men & women are not equally capable in every way & aren't meant to be. Vive la difference.

If I were in a burning building & had a choice b/t a scrappy-looking woman or a big buff male to carry my family out, bet your ass I'd take the male. I don't care how well the female firefighter did on her exam.

FWIW.

[GrkScorp]

No, it's not discrimination. It's preference. I was a science and math geek. I was horrible at the social sciences and reading. I have a science degree and chemistry minor. I was told I should have gone into electrical engineering or computer science but I could not imagine torturing myself with all that calculus. But years later had to take a little calculus for another career in any case.

All the guys that I dated were into the humanities and social sciences. Not one in the hard sciences. I think that it depends on what you are surrounding by and enjoy. Many men are now into hairstyling and fields that were predominately female. I see that movement now….nursing, social work, accounting(?). Many women are going into medicine, pharmacy, biomedical engineering and in some cases they are the majority now. Over the years after being surrounded by humanities and social science majors more, I am better at it. Being less surrounded by people in the hard sciences I am not as good as I used to be. Some people are hesitant to go into a career that has one sex represented in large quantities. When I was little I wanted to go into construction and architecture but was afraid it would be too awkward. I am now more into interior design. I like being girly lol.

I believe these groups are trying to help the women feel more comfortable going into a male-dominated profession. Now advertisements are trying to have men feel more comfortable going into a female-dominated profession.

I remember my economics classes used to be pretty female dominated.., all the Eastern-European girls that took Calculus III in like the 4th grade were kicking ass and taking names..

As for shifting between professions.., if a guy wants to be a hair stylist.., he has bigger problems than discrimination on his hands..

Best,

GrkScorp

[lesa]

Life is choice. You CAN'T have it all & do it all well. The important thing is to make an informed choice & then stick with it. Men & women should support each other in their goals & celebrate their ability to help each other. Two, working together well, is stronger than one.

Here's an interesting observation:

It’s been proven repeatedly—female doctors “will not work the same hours or have the same lifespan of contributions to the medical system as males,” says Dr. Brian Day, president of the Canadian Medical Association (CMA). Family duties are at least partly to blame. Day’s own wife and his sister-in-law, both trained physicians, haven’t practised since having kids 10 years ago. Despite their demanding careers, women are still “given the bigger proportion of child care, housekeeping and elder care,” says Dr. Janet Dollin, president of the Federation of Medical Women of Canada. But this pressure comes with a price. Burnout—the workplace exhaustion to which females are particularly susceptible—drives many women out of medicine altogether.

If you want to read the original article, its here:

[url]http://www.macleans.ca/science/health/article.jsp?content=20080102_122329_6200[/url]

It's true IndiReloaded, many women in that and similar professions put in less hours. But research will be hard on you if you do that. Many women in research sacrifice marriage and children for a career in medical research and men usually don't.

I told my ex that he would have to be the stay at home husband/dad because of my career and he was okay with that role. Times are changing and both partners have to be willing to support each other. It's okay for women to have a less traditional role. I had no desire in working less hours than men but I understand why women do it and contribute less in their field than men. Maybe if their husbands were willing and able to reverse their traditional roles it would work out better.

[lesa]

As for shifting between professions.., if a guy wants to be a hair stylist.., he has bigger problems than discrimination on his hands..

May I ask why?

[lesa]

What's wrong with admitting that someone is *inferior* to someone else's ability?

Are we so afraid to admit that someone else might actually be smarter/better/faster than we are at something? LOL.

Many of you are too young to even remember the feminist 70s, but what you probably don't know is that it took strong, self-assured MEN to help shift societal awareness about this issue. The powerless ones may have the issues, but it takes those in power to actually make effective change.

Now that we are coming full-circle, its going to take strong, self-assured WOMEN to make sure this balance is kept fair & meaningful. Part of this means letting go of the childish notion that "I can do anything a man/woman can & just as well as they."

Horse hooey. Men & women are not equally capable in every way & aren't meant to be. Vive la difference.

If I were in a burning building & had a choice b/t a scrappy-looking woman or a big buff male to carry my family out, bet your ass I'd take the male. I don't care how well the female firefighter did on her exam.

FWIW.

Nothing is wrong with using the word inferior. But assuming EVERYONE in a particular group is inferior can be an issue.

I would choose the 6'7" buff amazon female over the 4'11'' 100lbs slender fireman. But really I wouldn't care if a Chihuahua got me out of the burning building as long as someone/something did.

[GrkScorp]

Yes. Bias comes from both sides. Men might get labeled as insensitive, sex hungry, etc but women also gets labeled as foolish/immature and incompetent. Men are usually expected to "bring the bacon home" and women are usually associated with issues dealing within the home or the family(family chores, taking care of children, giving birth). These sex roles has always existed so its difficult to reverse. There are some progress made to address gender based biases but it will take long while for any huge progress to be made.

I agree.., and what I think is important.., is that.., "it takes two to fight" (unless you have some mental disorder).., but if one person can detach themselves personally from the situation for a moment.., and realize what is going on.., become aware of what this fight is doing.., and just be the bigger man.., or woman.., to step back and say.., hey.., this isn't me.., and this isn't you.., there's no reason to do this.., I as a man.., love women.., I as a woman.., love men.., then the whole cycle stops.., but then again.., easier said than done I suppose..

Men always had the advantage in the work area (because they are usually labeled as more competent than the females and they don't have other committments like giving birth, doing family chores, or taking care of the children which would require them to leave their work). I know that in some families men actually does family chores and take care of the children but usually this is not the case because women were traditionally expected to take care of that area.

do realize.., some men actually "like" to take care of the home they live in.., and keep it neat and orderly.., and though there are some.., the proud.., the few.., unlike those few.., most men actually love their children.., I remember reading some garbage book that my brother picked up.., I immediately came across the phrase.., "her children".., read the context under which it was used.., and took the book away..., they're not "her children" or "his children".., they're "their children" or "his and her children".., and they're both "parents".., and like good parents.., have a genuine love for their children.., and want to be there and care for them.., and give them the best..

As for sexual harassment (where women seems to have more of an advantage in court), this is a response to the belief that the worth of a women lies in her body. Women in this case is more vulnerable to sexual attacks thus harrassment laws which seems to favor women is really there to protect the disadvantaged. I know, there are always exceptions to these cases but culture and societal beliefs has to be taken seriously in the process of making these laws. Thus, these laws are there to address and protect the disadvantage, not to reinforce inequality.

See: sexual harassment
See: sexual assault
See: rape
(different charges)

Sure, it would be nice if men gets paternal leaves and that they are equally looked at in harrassment cases

It wouldn't be "nice".., as if to imply some "luxury".., it would be "just".., a victim is a victim.., irrelevant of many things like age.., race.., religion.., ethnicity.., etc.., but sex is one of them.., When a man has children.., and wants to take time off from work.., to spend time with his children.., what the workplace is telling him is.., "I know you want to be a good father.., and that you love your kids.., and want to spend time with them.., but because you're a man.., we don't feel that's important.., sorry.., now get back to work.., Sarah has maternity leave for the next 6 months.., we need you here".., it's both insulting and unconscionable to hold a genuine belief.., that a father does not care and love his children as much.., to want to spend time with them once he becomes a parent.., once they are born..

As for harassment.., (not sexual assault or rape).., men are no less a victim than women.., most however feel that nobody would take them seriously if they went ahead with a case.., and the reason they feel that way.., is because the success rates for those who do file.., are almost like those of playing the lottery.., when someone is a victim of a crime.., no matter what he or she is.., that person deserves protection under the law.., not under gender bias..

Sure, you can argue that you cannot make the assumption that women are more vulnerable to sexual attacks(since men and women are equally horny)

I wasn't about to argue that.., but thanks for letting that out there..

Maternity leave and harrassment laws aside, sexist labels should indeed be condemned. Men shouldn't be automatically be assumed as sex hungry or insensitive and women shouldn't be labeled as immature/foolish and emotionally driven. I think the only way these labels can be reversed is through the media. So, no more "shake your ass girl" videos.

And the only way that can happen.., is if everyone who is affected.., does something about it.., so.., just men and women.., sorry nano-bots.., some other time

Best,

GrkScorp

[IndiReloaded]

It's true IndiReloaded, many women in that and similar professions put in less hours. But research will be hard on you if you do that. Many women in research sacrifice marriage and children for a career in medical research and men usually don't.

I told my ex that he would have to be the stay at home husband/dad because of my career and he was okay with that role. Times are changing and both partners have to be willing to support each other. It's okay for women to have a less traditional role. I had no desire in working less hours than men but I understand why women do it and contribute less in their field than men. Maybe if their husbands were willing and able to reverse their traditional roles it would work out better.

Are you are scientist, Lesa? Not a student or trainee, but a faculty at a university (or company)? I'm just curious as to where you are at in this decision making process & what kind of role model you are basing your decision on.

And do you have a family yet? Children?

[lesa]

Are you are scientist, Lesa? Not a student or trainee, but a faculty at a university (or company)? I'm just curious as to where you are at in this decision making process & what kind of role model you are basing your decision on.

And do you have a family yet? Children?

PhD student/trainee at university hospital. Sorry I am talking in past/future tense. I am at a crossroad. I have to attend all the meetings and parties that I am invited to or they will have a great fuss. (I missed one business PARTY and they almost had a heart attack lol) The few women in the department are single and stay at work all day or married with children and get off work earilier. The women scientists told me these things directly. That is why there are few of them. The women here are really mean too, probably because of the competition from the men. A male researcher was my role model. The men usually are married and rarely get off earilier unless it is to go to some exposition out of state or out of country.

I have no children and decided maybe not to live the lifestyle of a scientist. I am going to use my knowledge to work on other careers in the medical sciences. I want to enjoy life fully not giving hundreds of symposiums and working poor grad students to odd hours in the lab. So eventually, I will be that woman who gets off early lol. I love the research, lab work, and it is fantastic to work with these great men and women but I despise the bureaucracy and you really don't get to do all of the laboratory work which got you interested in the field in the first place.

[IndiReloaded]

I would choose the 6'7" buff amazon female over the 4'11'' 100lbs slender fireman.

Either of the firefighter phenotypes you describe is rare to non-existent in their gender cohort. And there are fairly fixed, biological reasons for why that is so. No matter how hard one tries to make things 'equal', some things are simply not is what I am saying. I guess I'm also saying that, perhaps, a start would be to change our thinking that 'inequality' is a bad thing.

A thought experiment:

What would be the societal consequences if men & women were suddenly, truly equal in ALL aspects? I.e. 'anything you can do, I can do as well as you'. What if that became, literally true?

Ha, this would make a great bioethics essay, lol. Make sure you have a clear idea of what 'equal' actually means.

[IndiReloaded]

PhD student/trainee at university hospital. Sorry I am talking in past/future tense. I am at a crossroad. I have to attend all the meetings and parties that I am invited to or they will have a great fuss. (I missed one business PARTY and they almost had a heart attack lol) The few women in the department are single and stay at work all day or married with children and get off work earilier. The women scientists told me these things directly. That is why there are few of them. The women here are really mean too, probably because of the competition from the men. A male researcher was my role model. The men usually are married and rarely get off earilier unless it is to go to some exposition out of state or out of country.

I have no children and decided maybe not to live the lifestyle of a scientist. I am going to use my knowledge to work on other careers in the medical sciences. I want to enjoy life fully not giving hundreds of symposiums and working poor grad students to odd hours in the lab. So eventually, I will be that woman who gets off early lol. I love the research, lab work, and it is fantastic to work with these great men and women but I despise the bureaucracy and you really don't get to do all of the laboratory work which got you interested in the field in the first place.

First, follow your passion. If research is your 'thing', then do it, no matter what your fears about the lifestyle. Things always work out when you have passion for what you do. Its not true you don't get to work on what interests you in the lab, btw, you just have to want to work for it.

Second, realize that no matter what area of science you choose, there will always be politics. The politics of academia are just as complex as those in business or other fields. I moved from academia to business several years ago & I'd love to tell you its less political but its not, its just different. I love it, however, so that makes all the difference.

I do, unfortunately, know two female academics who have recently split from their husbands, one w/a small child & one older. I find it sad. All that achievement & so much unhappiness despite it says there is something VERY wrong with the process. The demands of a research career are harder on a woman than a man if she isn't prepared to give up something for it. That's just the nature of the beast. I am very open about these things to young women, not to make them bitter, but to make them understand the nature of the choice they are making.

I have to get back to my own work now. You seem like a very balanced lady, Lesa. Good luck in your studies & continue to work hard for what you really want & you'll get it.

[lesa]

First, follow your passion. If research is your 'thing', then do it, no matter what your fears about the lifestyle. Things always work out when you have passion for what you do. Its not true you don't get to work on what interests you in the lab, btw, you just have to want to work for it.

Second, realize that no matter what area of science you choose, there will always be politics. The politics of academia are just as complex as those in business or other fields. I moved from academia to business several years ago & I'd love to tell you its less political but its not, its just different. I love it, however, so that makes all the difference.

I do, unfortunately, know two female academics who have recently split from their husbands, one w/a small child & one older. I find it sad. All that achievement & so much unhappiness despite it says there is something VERY wrong with the process. The demands of a research career are harder on a woman than a man if she isn't prepared to give up something for it. That's just the nature of the beast. I am very open about these things to young women, not to make them bitter, but to make them understand the nature of the choice they are making.

I have to get back to my own work now. You seem like a very balanced lady, Lesa. Good luck in your studies & continue to work hard for what you really want & you'll get it.

Thank you so much IndiReloaded. I needed to hear those things. Are you in research?

Anyway I digress, back to the original topics....