boobaa et al.

[GrkScorp]

Anyway I digress, back to the original topics....

Digressing is what it's all about..

Speaking of which.., if you can still remember.., what DID inspire you to go into research and for your PhD lesa?

[lesa]

Digressing is what it's all about..

Speaking of which.., if you can still remember.., what DID inspire you to go into research and for your PhD lesa?

hmm not sure exactly. When I was a child I was afraid of diseases. Sad really lol. I could not say the word cancer and when I or family members had illnesses I thought the worst. In the health sciences classes in grade school I was afraid to look at the diseases and prognosis. Eventually I thought in order for me to reduce my fears I need to know more about these diseases. I looked up random rare and common diseases until I become desensitized. I became very curious and wanted to know how disease occur at the cellular and molecular level...majored in molecular bio and chemistry in undergrad and worked in professor's lab and did apprenticeship, internships and the rest is history.

Weird way to get into a career huh? And cancer research at that.

[bluesummer]

This topic, as always, never has an black and white answer. Just like religion.

GS, when I said the world was still a very misogynist place, I literally meant THE WORLD. Look outside our progressive North American box and you'll realize that many women still live lives of degredation and servitude. There are still many many men in the world that believe women are inferior in most ways to a man. It has progressed quite a bit, but is still a prevalent idea in most of the world today. This is merely an observation, not my opinion...I'm not a feminist by any means, and do not consider myself superior or inferior to anyone.

Also, kindly do not use my typos as a basis for pointing out ignorance. Shockingly (!) I am not perfect, and do make mistakes. This does not make me ignorant. I actually CAN spell 'blatantly', thank you.

[GrkScorp]

Also, kindly do not use my typos as a basis for pointing out ignorance. Shockingly (!) I am not perfect, and do make mistakes. This does not make me ignorant. I actually CAN spell 'blatantly', thank you.

Hey.., blue.., if I didn't make it clear enough on the post.., it wasn't to point out "ignorance".., just the frame of mind of someone sexist.., who is constantly looking for things wrong with the opposite sex.., and so they would take the smallest and most meaningless things.., and blow them out of proportion.., (just like that simple type-o)

I even said below.., we all make type-o's.., but people like this.., who are constantly looking to put others down.., will find any excuse to do so.., THAT was the point of the example.., NOT to point out "ignorance"..

Best,

GrkScorp

[GrkScorp]

hmm not sure exactly. When I was a child I was afraid of diseases. Sad really lol. I could not say the word cancer and when I or family members had illnesses I thought the worst. In the health sciences classes in grade school I was afraid to look at the diseases and prognosis. Eventually I thought in order for me to reduce my fears I need to know more about these diseases. I looked up random rare and common diseases until I become desensitized. I became very curious and wanted to know how disease occur at the cellular and molecular level...majored in molecular bio and chemistry in undergrad and worked in professor's lab and did apprenticeship, internships and the rest is history.

Weird way to get into a career huh? And cancer research at that.

Very VERY interesting actually..

As if you can almost trace back the desire to keep those around you healthy and disease-free.., a little bit of maternal instinct there.., giving you a push towards exploring exactly how they work.., to feel safe(er)..

Absolutely fascinating.., see.., to digress is not always a bad thing.., good in fact..

Best,

GrkScorp

[lesa]

Very VERY interesting actually..

As if you can almost trace back the desire to keep those around you healthy and disease-free.., a little bit of maternal instinct there.., giving you a push towards exploring exactly how they work.., to feel safe(er)..

Absolutely fascinating.., see.., to digress is not always a bad thing.., good in fact..

Best,

GrkScorp

Maternal instinct? Where?

I wanted to be a carpenter but those big muscular men deterred me . lol, no one stopped me but there was no motivation or mentor to move me in that direction. I looked at interior design because it was closer to what a "girl can do" and also I looked into speech pathology. When I looked at research it never bothered me whether it was a male-dominated work or not. I was so excited that I couldn't see it until I got there and saw all the bureaucracy. If I was extremely excited about carpentry, I probably would have done it.

I like to do a lot of things. If only I had more than one life to live.

I do believe we can do anything we are willing and able to do. If the female is willing and able to become a firefighter then why should she not?

[bohemiandonut]

Funny I still don't know what the topic of this thread is.

[IndiReloaded]

I do believe we can do anything we are willing and able to do. If the female is willing and able to become a firefighter then why should she not?

Well, to address your question directly, she should not if she is: physically too weak, has a poor aptitude for things like chemistry (FF have to know quite a lot about this), has a poor ability to deal with intense stress, pain or death, is unable to cope with the fact that she will be mostly dealing with males, some of whom may have a problem w/the fact she is female.

In other words, I am not saying she *shouldn't*, just that she shouldn't be naive about the realities of the path she is choosing.

As you correctly state, both willingness AND ability is required to do something well. Some ppl are simply not willing to accept whatever natural limitations they have (and some are too willing to accept those they do not).

However much I might wish it, I will NEVER become a competent coloratura soprano. Its simply not in my genes to have that vocal range. Shrug.

[IndiReloaded]

Funny I still don't know what the topic of this thread is.

if I didn't make it clear enough on the post.., it wasn't to point out "ignorance".., just the frame of mind of someone sexist.., who is constantly looking for things wrong with the opposite sex.

This^.

So, it would seem ppl are reluctant to define terms like 'sexist' and 'equality'. Not surprising, which is one of the reasons why this topic is so muddled.

IMO, this quest for 'equality' is like chasing a mirage. Equivalency is possible, in some cases, but not equality. Biology would never permit it.

The problem isn't in prejudgement, its in looking for the 'after the fact' explanation. Things ppl strive for either are, or are not, acceptable up to some independent standard, or should be. That is the gold standard. And if you or your work isn't up to snuff then, that's how it is. Don't blame it on sex, age, socioeconomic status or race. Likewise, don't use those as excuses as for why substandard work/behaviour/ability is acceptable, b/c it isn't. Take responsibility for your choices as a human only.

[lesa]

Women and men are biologically unequal, but complementary. If someone has the talent to be a coloratura soprano or the female wants and has the ability to become a firefighter then why not? I not talking about wishful thinking I mean a real ability.

I knew a 6'7" female and she was always stopped on the streets and asked whether she was a model or professional basketball player. She was beautiful and can be a model but was not willing (her daughter is now a career model). If she was sporty she could have been a basketball player if that was what she wanted.

Sometimes our phenotype guides us into less than ideal vocations. I was fingerprinted for business the other day and the female police officer was big and muscular yet cute. I know she was still weaker than the males but she was much stronger than the average females. I also knew a female who was a weightlifter (is that what you call it?) Anyway, I am positive that she was stronger than a few men I know.

The women who are firefighters and police officers do not represent the average female phenotype and they really want to be firefighters or police officers. Some of those female police officers look way too weak but maybe they want to climb the career ladder and had to start as police officers. Plus, who would play the prostitutes if they did not have those scrawny women?

[Edited: I just saw a story on Jaime Nared a 6' tall 12 year old girl that played basketball better than the boys in a boy's league. She was later banned though. She hopes to play in the NBA some day.]

[DoesntMatter]

Many women are going into medicine, pharmacy, biomedical engineering and in some cases they are the majority now.

I remember reading a news article on Yahoos main page once about how this is happening. And they made it sound like such a great thing that women were outnumbering men in these areas now since institutions have pushed it like none other. They worded it something like "Reason for celebration, or cause for concern?" How about people stop trying to artificially fucck with the demographic makeup of these things?

And from my experiences at school, the girls work sooo much harder than the guys on average and much greater grade whores. Annoying

Well.., if you really wanted to work at Kodak.., or any company for that matter.., and they denied your application or rejected you.., and you feel that it was because of a gender preference.., and additionally you believe that this gender preference is unjustified.., then you can:

My dad works for Kodak, they are run by a bunch of nincompoops at the top. I don't want to work there at all

all the Eastern-European girls that took Calculus III in like the 4th grade were kicking ass and taking names..

I could have taught calculus to my little sister when she was in elementary school as well, it's easier than dog shit. It gets hard when the professors create ridiculously impossible exams. 99% of schools have real pussy tests and curriculums. That is what annoys me when my friends that went to other schools say "Yeah, that class in graph theory was cake, etc etc". It's because of the difficult of the exams. Everyone in my calc class got 5s on their AP exams without any effort, yet will struggle to hit the mean of 55% on the next exam

I'm not a feminist by any means, and do not consider myself superior or inferior to anyone.

But you have superior sexyness blue

[IndiReloaded]

Women and men are biologically unequal, but complementary. If someone has the talent to be a coloratura soprano or the female wants and has the ability to become a firefighter then why not? I not talking about wishful thinking I mean a real ability.

So am I. Wanting something is not enough is my point.

I was fingerprinted for business the other day and the female police officer was big and muscular yet cute. I know she was still weaker than the males but she was much stronger than the average females.

There may be other criteria for this profession (e.g. empathy, negotiation, marksmanship) that she excels at. Perhaps well enough that her relative lack of physical strength is of little consequence.

However, IF absolute strength is a requirement to do this job well, then what you state is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if she is stronger than most females, she just needs to be STRONG by whatever criteria that is satisfied by. If she can't satisfy that basic job requirement then she shouldn't be doing that job. And it has nothing to do w/the fact she is a woman since a physically weak man would likewise not be suitable for the job.

Are you seriously saying that people should be able to do whatever profession they want to, and expect to make a living from it, even if they suck at it?

Oh my.

Wait until you have students or staff of your own & you need to break it to them that, no, you really *can't* give them a glowing recommendation because, frankly, their performance doesn't merit it. Its not easy, but often its something they NEED to hear so they can rethink things.

[DoesntMatter]

Research in organic chemistry and transition metal chemistry would seem interesting but doesn't make you rich

But med school does! hahahah....

[lesa]

However, IF absolute strength is a requirement to do this job well, then what you state is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if she is stronger than most females, she just needs to be STRONG by whatever criteria that is satisfied by. If she can't satisfy that basic job requirement then she shouldn't be doing that job. And it has nothing to do w/the fact she is a woman since a physically weak man would likewise not be suitable for the job.

Are you seriously saying that people should be able to do whatever profession they want to, and expect to make a living from it, even if they suck at it?

I believe we are agreeing? How can someone be whatever profession they want to and expect to make a living from it even if they suck at it? They are either never hired or fired. I said willing and able. They both have to be there. If you are not able to do it then you won't qualify or do it because you can't. You can expect forever but wanting something doesn't give it to you.

In the female example, let just say she absolutely passed the physical requirements for the job. The example was just that. Let say she is equally strong as the men. That is my point. Some people have characteristics outside of the average for their sex. There are great hairstylist (I had one), clothes designers, makeup artist, babysitters etc who are males.

If the person is willing and able to do the job that is required in the job description then what is the issue here?

You can only do what you realistically are willing and able to do.

Lastly, if you are willing and able to performed the job that is required then what is the issue?

[IndiReloaded]

I think we may be agreeing, but are making different points. Mine is that there ARE a lot of ppl who think that mere willingness, even the willingness to work hard, is enough. There's an awful lot of mediocrity out there. And there are those who think that THAT is something that should be rewarded. That anyone really can do anything if they simply really want to.

A lovely Cinderella fantasy with no basis in reality.

Intentions and willingness are merely stepping stones. Ultimately, its results that matter & I call BS on anyone who says otherwise.

In my experience, things like sex, socioeconomic status & race are often used to excuse the simple fact that their native ability simply doesn't compete. Its a hard thing to look at ones self and say "I'm just not cut out for X or Y". Much easier to blame failure on any of the above excuses. And goodness help anyone who says differently.

Take the converse example: success. How many successes do you ever hear 'blamed' on sex, race or social status? Answer: almost none. In THOSE cases, its all because the individual is, simply, very good at what they do. Why should failure or inability be thought of any differently?

Again, if I decide to work really, really hard at being an opera singer, does that mean I somehow deserve success? LOL, for the sake of the operaphiles out there, I surely hope not.

If the person is willing and able to do the job that is required in the job description then what is the issue here?

Lastly, if you are willing and able to performed the job that is required then what is the issue?

The issue is that this addresses nothing about competition. What is happening in today's society is that competitive positions (or grants, as you are likely aware) are being awarded based on *minimal* criteria, not necessarily who is BEST for the job. There are many, many cases where more qualified males (or females) are being passed over for someone who is *merely* 'willing and able to perform the job that is required', as you put it. They are chosen not b/c they are best for the position, but because they satisfy some demographic criteria that society has imposed like some kind of weird pseudo-nepotism run amok.

We are culling our own workforce of competence. Hamstringing ourselves into accepting less-than-optimal personnel.

Its a form of selection that is ultimately doomed. Imagine in biology if fertile females were forced to mate with less-than-competitive males simply b/c we 'felt sorry for them' or there 'were too many of them', not b/c they were actually fit. Ha, what an uproar THAT kind of edict would cause!