boobaa et al.

[GrkScorp]

Now that i'm waiting until my internship starts on the first of next month.., I have free time on my hands.., and that's quite possibly the worst thing that anyone can do to me.., to give me free time..

So i've been doing some thinking.., about some of the things boobaa has been talking about.., some of the feelings he's had.., and then it hit me.., "wait a minute.., boobaa isn't the only one".., the more I thought about it.., the more I saw it as a persistent trend among almost every single guy I knew..

These guys.., were not going around.., beating women.., raping women.., hurting women.., disrespecting women.., treating women badly.., etc.., but they were all getting heat for it.., they were all being victimized and treated as if just because they were a guy.., this is what they do..

Genuinely nice guys.., (if you're a guy.., you know what that means.., for the girls out there.., that's exactly what it means.., an honest.., genuinely good natured guy.., who actually cares about you.., and is not just looking out for his own personal satisfaction).., so.., genuinely nice guys.., who were being treated like jerks.., who were being victims of hate.., negative emotions.., fear.., suspicion.., etc..

So.., I said fcuk it.., i've just come out of legal research boot camp.., why not do some casual research and look a little deeper into this issue.., and wow..

It all started to click.., it was an entire trend.., mostly across the United States.., a culture where racism was a socially accepted wrong.., where misogyny was a socially accepted wrong.., but somehow.., there was nothing "wrong" about misandry.., not only was there nothing "wrong" with it.., it was actually a popular trend..

To quote Warren Farrell on this:

"In the past quarter century, we exposed biases against other races and called it racism, and we exposed biases against women and called it sexism. Biases against men we call humor."

It was everywhere.., unavoidable.., on television.., on the radio.., in the movies.., in marketing.., it had not been socially accepted as a vice and moral "wrong".., for some reason.., it wasn't placed in the same category as "sexism".., but instead.., it was accepted as "humor".., innocent little humor.., guys don't care.., guys don't have feelings.., there are no serious consequences from some playful fun right?

I suppose not.., but to be consistent with that theory.., then I guess there's nothing "wrong" with the following "joke":

"What does an apple and a black family have in common? They both look great hanging from trees"

Not funny? Ok.., fine.., what about the next one?

"As for the issue of whether or not to continue to reproduce males, it doesn't follow that because the male, like disease, has always existed among us that he should continue to exist. When genetic control is possible -- and soon it will be -- it goes without saying that we should produce only whole, complete beings, not physical defects of deficiencies, including emotional deficiencies, such as maleness. Just as the deliberate production of blind people would be highly immoral, so would be the deliberate production of emotional cripples." by (Valeris Solanas)

Perhaps both me and Valeris have been fortunate enough to not come face to face with one another.., because I can't even begin to imagine what I would program her to do.., and i'd feel no reservations about it either.., maybe something extreme and radical.., totally out of this world.., like have respect for men.., and remove her female chauvinism.., strip her of all misandry.., and inspire her to write a book called "Penis worship".., then call her up one day and tell her.., "Hey.., Valeris.., how are.., you can come out of it now.., what's going on?".., and let her live with herself there on after..

But what's more tragic.., the the trend itself.., everywhere.., enforcing this image of men.., guys.., boys.., males.., that they are all these things.., there is reason to be scared and angry at them (misandry).., and at the same time.., they are so stupid and inferior (female chauvinism).., let's generalize and make jokes about it..

And it's not just older women who are miserable or single.., it's not just middle aged women either.., and it's not just young women.., it's little girls.., from an early age.., being pounded from all directions with this level of unavoidable social programming.., that produce things like this:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_are_stupid%2C_throw_rocks_at_them%21[/url]

And what I find most disturbing.., is that guys are reading this and thinking one thing.., and some women are reading this and thinking.., "omfg relax.., what's the big deal?".., and that's exactly the point..

What's the big deal.., if you have a Calculus text book "for him".., but a Calculus text book "for her".., only that the "for her" version looks like this:



It's not a big deal.., because there's one Calculus text book.., and everyone knows the same Calculus.., both are equally as capable of learning it.., and it's wrong to assume any less of women.., they are equal in all academic and intellectual aspects.., (for those of you who think otherwise.., you are looking at exceptions.., special cases.., and those apply not just to women.., but to men as well.., but on average.., and in large.., both are equally as able)

Similarly.., is it any less wrong to assume as a general truth.., to genuinely believe.., that men are inferior in emotional and/or social aspects.., that "it is not the case that both parents can love their children equally".., but "it is the case that a mother simply loves her children more than the father ever can"? is it any less wrong to say for instance.., "men only want sex and are incapable of genuinely feeling love or emotions for anyone, if they say they do, it's only because they are lying, and only really want just sex".., instead of.., "both people can have mutual respect for each other and feel genuine love for each other.., and sex is a mutually enjoyable pleasure that both can enjoy as the aftermath of those feelings".., or.., "men are just emotionally clueless.., they have no idea how the other person feels or the slightest clue as to what the other person is thinking.., it's as if they don't really care".., instead of.., "men do not talk about their feelings because it goes against their masculine image.., however.., they do care about others feelings.., and know how to investigate properly and discover what the other person is thinking and how they are feeling.., all while affording that person the comfort of not having to say it explicitly or directly to them".., or my favorite.., "there's no such thing as a gentleman.., all men are such jerks".., and not bothering to consider.., "when was the last time I (the girl) held open a door for a guy.., or paid.., if not the full bill.., at least my half? Why not?"

Guys.., really interested to hear.., if you've ever found yourself being aware of this.., while listening to the radio.., or watching television.., or during a movie.. etc

When you just hear or see something and you think.., omg.., they're really REALLY pushing the stereotype here to the point where it's just inaccurate and non-representative anymore.., insulting and degrading.., but everyone is laughing.., it's considered social humor.., everyone accepts this.., to be true.., but it's not..

Have you ever found yourself in that kind of situation? And if not exactly that kind of situation.., what was it like? When did it happen? What was the ad.., commercial.., movie.., show.., etc.., and what was going on? What is the "wrong" message that you think it's sending out about all guys to girls out there?

Best,

GrkScorp

[bluesummer]

I don't understand, GS, because I see more misogyny in the world in general than I do misandry. I don't believe in stereotyping or belittling any sex, race, culture, sexual preference etc etc. However, I've never taken misandry too seriously, because realistically, the world is still very very very misogynist. It upsets me, yeah. However, I'm also an intelligent independent female and therefore KNOW that I do not fit into misogynist stereotypes, so such men can say/think what they want. Men should feel the same way about feminists/misandrists.

The bottom line is, only ignorant people are blantantly and blindly biased. I choose not to interact with ignorant people, because they are beneath me. So anything they say doesn't affect me. I feel sorry for people with biases, because it just shows how uneducated and backwards they are.

[Cain]

For some reason, I find myself reading the first paragraph of Grk's posts, but then quickly scrolling through the massive essays.

I think I'm too stupid.

[GrkScorp]

I think I'm too stupid.

Very funny.., and that's what i'm talking about.., which mean you probably read more than a couple of sentences..

[Cain]

I got as far as "These guys.., were not going around.., beating women.., raping women.., hurting women.., disrespecting women.., treating women badly.., etc.., but they were all getting heat for it.., they were all being victimized and treated as if just because they were a guy.., this is what they do.." and then just scrolled down... and when I saw there was a novel, I read the replies. :o

[GrkScorp]

I actually have to run out.., but I do want to address this before the thread takes off..

I don't understand, GS, because I see more misogyny in the world in general than I do misandry. However, I've never taken misandry too seriously, because realistically, the world is still very very very misogynist.

Extreme examples of both are easy to spot out and say.., "that's clearly without a doubt an extreme opinion, a narrow-minded and irrational idea and belief, and that person has clearly shown the character that they are just by saying something so ignorant"

But misogyny or misandry don't exist in a binary form.., yes or no.., they exist in degrees.., and when you look at the less extreme degrees.., which are more subtle.., less overt.., and mask themselves under "humor".., they are equally wrong.., but they're all over the place..

At first I thought the same thing.., but from a different bias.., I thought.., "wow.., misogyny doesn't even exist any more in the 21st century.., look at labor laws.., maternity leave.., there's not such thing as paternity leave.., you can take years off to spend with your child as a woman and you can't do that just because you're a man? during divorce.., automatically it's assumed in most cases that the mother would make the better parent.., or sexual harassment laws.., where boys and men are actually sexually violated but never file.., and when they do.., lose on the grounds that they're not takes seriously.., whereas women who file may win even if actual harassment hasn't even occurred.., with t-shirts with blatant statements like that.., movies and culture promoting a humorous inferior image of men and pushing for it to be accepted as the norm or a general truth.., or even representative of the majority of men.., what misogyny are they talking about?"

It took me a while.., I have to admit.., before I removed myself from that bias.., thinking.., wait a minute.., there are idiots out there who go to feminist rallies.., and hold up signs saying.., "Iron my shirt!".., or actually create pictures of car accidents or idiotic things and put captions under them that read "female drivers.., what do you expect" or "only a woman could do something like this".., or "Advanced Chemistry.., Intermediate Chemistry.., Basic Chemistry.., Chemistry for Dummies.., Chemistry for Women".., and it came to the point where.., there is just so much going on.., the fact that our culture is rich with these biases makes it easy for one to access them at any time.., accept them as a general truth without much guilt since they fall under the guise of "humor".., and throw them back at one an other.., exchanging insults and negative emotions.., until one of them is intelligent enough to stop.., the tragedy lies when both people are idiots.., and they keep going at it..

The following.., is an example of what some idiot guy would come up and say to what you wrote..

I'm also an intelligent independent female

He would then go on to say something he would think would constitute "humor" by implying or directly stating that this is somehow an oxymoron.., you've seen it happen..

But consider how that would feel.., obviously it doesn't bother you.., but it's still rude.., it's still classless.., it doesn't bother you because you feel it's true in some way.., it only bothers you to know that there are people out there who actually believe it.., to be true..

Now.., just imagine.., that what you felt.., with that.., was very limited.., because you know that I was just making an example.., that I wasn't throwing an insult back at you in any way.., and that you know the kind of understanding we both have towards each other.., but despite that.., there's a little something that went off when you came across that..

Now.., imagine how it would be like.., if you heard guys you didn't know.., say something like that.., or respond to your post in that way.., "just to be funny".., it wouldn't bother you because you thought it was true.., but because that person just showed what they think.., and though you don't care.., it bothers you to know that that person seriously believes or finds humor in what he's saying.., seriously believes there is truth to his belief..

therefore KNOW that I do not fit into misogynist stereotypes, so such men can say/think what they want. Men should feel the same way about feminists/misandrists.

Every woman fits into the misogynist stereotypes.., because they satisfy the one and only criterion.., they're a woman.., similarly.., every man fits into the misoandrist stereotypes.., because he also fits into the one and only criterion.., they're a man..

Yes.., it does you no direct harm.., when you know who you are.., when you know that what is being said is not true.., but it does affect you.., because these are people you may have to interact with.., and even if you don't have to interact with them directly.., you will have to interact with people who have heard and accepted what those people have said as "humor".., this is why it bothers you that there are ignorant people like this out there..

only ignorant people are blantantly and blindly biased

Someone like that may turn around to also say.., "Only ignorant people don't know how to spell (blatantly)"..

But you know what.., we all make type-o's.., if we wanted a fcukn' online post to be perfect.., we would proof-read it.., which only shows.., that these people have it within them.., to be actively looking at opportunities to stick someone into a stereotype..

The mechanism behind that is chauvinism.., male & female chauvinism.., where the "ego".., which is constantly looking for positive validation about personal identity.., and constantly rejecting negative validation about personal identity (notice: the source of bias).., is now actively looking to create an inferior category of others who don't fit into one's own identity (in this case.., based on gender.., although the term "chauvinism was first established to reflect national origin").., in an effort to feel superior to them.., and therefore give positive validation to the ego.., by artificial and unrealistic means.., that have no basis in reality.., (in other words: no "actual" or "real" validation has been given.., only "false" validation)

What I find tragic.., is the wealth of information that one has available to them in the United States.., via books.., the radio.., television.., music.., movies.., the internet.., etc.., that allow for them to easily make reference to some model about a gender in their mind.., and assert it.., and that model gets accepted.., because it's not radical and blatantly morally wrong.., but falls under the guise of "humor".., so what you end up with is both guys girls.., making some very very wrong assertions.., under the guise of "humor".., but in doing so.., communicating messages.., that (yes).., ignorant people.., eventually come to accept and believe as general truths..

Just from reading this.., and the casual research that i've done.., i've come to realize on my own.., that I do this myself.., for both sexes.., I state very inaccurate statements and it completely bypasses my pre-frontal cortex.., I don't have a chance to say.., "woah.., wait a second.., what are you saying? do you have any idea how wrong that is?".., because it falls under the guise of "humor"..

(emotional-tampon.., long-term-provider.., chick logic.., get laid.., etc).., and there lies the tragedy.., you say it as a joke.., or in the other tread.., when you responded about the sunglasses.., I was about to write.., "I would be pretty freaked out too.., if they called it GrkScorp.., and had little Scorp-drops in the form of liquid gels".., a sexual innuendo obviously.., but it also subcommunicates the wrong message.., because the basis of its humor comes in conforming to a sexist male stereotype.., "haha.., guys only think about sex"..

I'm definitely going to enjoy my time off.., and try and take out all these sexist undertones (for both sexes).., away from what I consider to be "humor".., because it's not..

Looking to hearing some more on this from both guys and girls out there..

Best,

GrkScorp

[bohemiandonut]

Hate to break this to you GS, but your ideas are not worthy of the 5,000 word altars you mount them on. Take a cue from comedy and get to the punch line in time relative to how good the joke actually is.

[GrkScorp]

You know you're really part of a forum.., when the first thing you do when you get to where you had to go.., is go online to finish a thought..

Other forms of sexism and gender bias in communication:

Sexist complements:

- You drive really well.., for a woman
- You're really good with kids.., for a man
- You're really smart.., for a girl
- That was pretty profound.., for a guy
- You're pretty independent for a woman
- You're pretty sensitive for a guy
- I just wish all girls were like you
- I just wish there were more guys like you out there

Sexist hopes:

- I just wish more girls would like sex
- I just wish more guys would be sensitive

Self-sexism as homor or validation of sexual identity:

- Leave me alone ok.. haha! I'm a girl..
- Don't ask me what looks good.., i'm a guy..

More indirect self-sexism as homor or validation of sexual identity:

- OMG! Shoes! Sale!
- [insert sexual innuendo here]

So.., sexist models.., be it extreme or subtle.., find their way into human behavior.., even on a self-humor or self-identity level.., people tend to conform to such models.., either as a means of socially accepted "humor".., or socially conforming "self-identity & sexuality"

Since there is humor in self-sexism.., or even confirmation in sexist models by self-identifying with them.., external parties may eventually take some aspects of sexist models to hold some truth.., or even worse.., the entire sexist model to hole some truth.., and that is where the issue exists.., when these models are actually accpeted.., and society reacts and behaves under the assupmtions that these models are correct and accurately representative.., when in fact they are not..

So far i've been doing some research on "the wage gap" between women and men.., and there are three theories as to why it exists.., I think the first one is complete crap.., but nevertheless it's out there.., there is one that I want to explore more:

- Human Capital hypothesis: it is either the case that female human capital is valued less than male human capital.., or that female human capital is less valuable than male human capital.. (exactly.. sexist theory in and of itself)

- Discrimination hypothesis: when other variable are controlled for.., gender discrimination leads to disproportunate earnings and employment opportunities

- Labor Market Analysis hypothesis: when we account for discrimination or the wage gap.., we look at every labor market grouped together.., and aim to observe the economy as a whole.., without segmenting specific markets.., there are labor markets which are mostly female.., and labor markets which are mostly male.., income is disproportunate bewteen these markets.., and when these markets are observed collectively.., we observe only what appears to be a wage gap.., but simply the result of what labor market each gender.., in the aggregate.., chooses to supply labor to..

What i'm interested to get to the bottom of.., is the dilemma of which came first.., the chicken or the egg?

Was it the stereotype or model society created that created each gender to move towards a particular market.., or was it really their own free choice that lead them to that market which in turn was responsible for the sexist model?

Unskilled labor bias: (physical bias)

- How many male personal assistants do you see?
- How many male housekeepers do you see?
- How many male waitresses do you see?
- How many female construction workers do you see?
- How many female Alaskan crab fishermen do you see?
- How many female factory/oil-rig workers do you see?

Skilled labor bias:

- How many male teachers do you see?
- How many male nurses do you see?
- How many female lawyers do you see?
- How many female politicians do you see?

I have two different theories so far that I want to test:

- Maternity hypothesis: generally speaking.., higher paying jobs such as Cheif of Surgery of a hospital.., or Senior Council/Partner at a firm.., pay a significantly high income (we're talking $700,000+ in NYC.., and i'm sure California & Chigaco are around the same).., but also require stability and a significant time investment.., something that meternal leave would get in the way of.., (to test for this.., I want to find a state or even companies which allow for paternal leave.., or roughly around the same duration.., to control for this and see if it makes a difference)

- Social expectations/roles hypothesis: members belonging to a certain gender have external social roles and functions imposed on them.., this may make them feel obligated to preform these roles and meet these expectations.., or motivated to do so if they expect that the other gender will fail to meet those critical expectations.. (this is the hypothesis i'm feeling better about.., but I have no way to control for all the variables.., or mine for data)

In short.., the hypothesis goes something like this:

- Men have a socially imposed expectation of taking on the role of the financial provider
- Women have a socially imposed expectation of taking on the role of the child/household caretaker

(guys.., girls.., I know.., starting to sound sexist already)

But this is an issue of life-stage development.., and motivation through each point of one's lifestage.., and the choices they make.., based on such motivation.., and if such motivation is liked to socially imposed expectations of conforming to "gender roles".., does this attibute to segmentation and saturation between different labor markets?

I don't want to say that men think "whoever i'm going to marry is not going to be doing anything with her life.., so I better find some way to make money.., because somebody has to pay for the bills".., that's not what goes on.., but could it be the case that men feel additional social pressure to be financially successful.., so that they can meet this social expectation and comfort to such a role? And can this account for the dominant male supply of labor in certain higher/middle income labor markets?

Similarly.., I wouldn't say that women think "whoever i'm going to marry is going to be doing something with his life.., so it's no big deal.., plus i'll have time for the kids.., that's more important.., and I can't expect him to be any good for that anyway.., someone has to raise them".., that's not what goes on.., but could it be the case that women don't feel this social pressure to be financially successful.., because this social expectation does not apply to them? And can this account for the dominant female supply of labor in certain middle/lower income labor markets?

Even more tragic to think of is the discrimination hypothesis.., because if these motivations really are in place.., then that would mean that both genders also have motivation to "defend" their "gender roles".., which would lead to irrational gender bias on the part of males in labor markets to defend their socially imposed gender role.., and irrational gender bias on the part of females in parenting to defend their socially imposed gender role..

Then.., the more important question to ask would be.., what steps can we take.., to reverse the effects of a traditional gender dichotomy system.., remove any resulting sexism and gender bias.., and reflect the nature of the modern era.., where society is no longer backwards.., but has moved ahead in realizing that both sexes are equal.., and traditional gender roles (therefore.., social expectations).., no longer apply..

Hmm.., this is why free time is really.., REALLY bad for me..

Best,

GrkScorp

[GrkScorp]

I got as far as "These guys.., were not going around.., beating women.., raping women.., hurting women.., disrespecting women.., treating women badly.., etc.., but they were all getting heat for it.., they were all being victimized and treated as if just because they were a guy.., this is what they do.." and then just scrolled down... and when I saw there was a novel, I read the replies. :o

Very resourceful..,

[DoesntMatter]

17 of the 21 people in my summer engineering organic chemistry class are guys! (sorry I miscounted the other day)

Should I draw conclusions from that?

[boobaa]

Ugh, while some of it was right, I still didn't quite get it why are you especially referring to me. What posts are you referring to exactly? I've been critical to many things. Why not choose anti-americanism?

You should just call me the guy who tries to put tar on everything clean. because thats what I like to do.
I don't believe I am particulary sexist. Or anything, in that matter. I just want the things to be clear. You know, there is a reason why women are called snakes. Have you red my post in "why women don't look sex" thread? I like freedom, you know, always liked it. I like to say what I want and I like others saying what they want. But freedom starts from morality. If you are turn down by the thought of what you want, and therefore forced to be sneaky (what is very egoistical and can harm others) or abandon (self-harm, constant doubts) your thoughts, who is it really to blame? Like the "slut" issue, for example.

I am also familiar with the idea that men have always been more successful than women. Well, if you are woman, and think you can be successful, then be it, say what you want, do what you want. Men have used to have more freedom in that point -- self confidence? (arguments aprreciated here).You don't really need discounts if you think you can be successful.
But you are damn right about the child parenting issue, that people get stamped since childhood. That is exactly how I see most of the families in America. You may think that stamping is unavoidable, since we take on from our parents. But there, parents are already stamped. So, what should we do about it?
And, by stamping, I don't mean sexism, but everything, take animal cruelty for example... Only thing that gives you 100% guarantee that your child will be good to animals, is to be example enough to show your child that everybody wants to live, and everybody feels the pain like you do. Apparently, a lot of normal family parents fail to do it, and its in masses, its not about animal cruelty but just the matter of appreciation, some people treat another being as a thing. And circuses create a very good example for this. Children go to circuses. Its the same thing with other topics also, like sexism, expectations etc.

I know there is a lot going on in my head. A lot of stuff in society that bothers me and therefore I am very critical and whiny, but thats what I am. It wouldn't be if there weren't evens in my life that have triggered these. Everything is triggered by something, I have figured out what my triggers might be, for so long, now I only need to find out how exactly these triggers happened. Now I am interested in happenings, in people, causes and causes of causes which people often tend to not see. I also need to figure out, wether being a cold observer is good at all. But so far, all i have been trying to do, is get people to ask the "why" question.

Ok, since I see you like this topic, I can very well continue doing my thing so you could do more research


And DM, what conclusions do you mean? That men like chemistry more than women do? Have you ever thought about why it is so?

[DoesntMatter]

And DM, what conclusions do you mean? That men like chemistry more than women do? Have you ever thought about why it is so?

You see, that is the conclusion *I* draw. That guys just naturally like things more technical in nature. However, feminists with their inferiority-complexes in the sciences will say it's owing to discrimination rather than different tastes and that something needs to be done to correct it. Look, girls just don't want to become engineers as much as guys do, and guys don't want to go into hairstyling as much as girls do. Just different interests

So I say men LIKE the area more and that is the reason for the big difference. Feminists will claim it's because of discrimination which is just bullshit in this day and age. When Kodak came to my middle school to tell us why math and science is important, they told the girls they are specifically hiring women now to try to offset the engineering fields from being so male-dominated. Gee, for a company going down the shitter so fast, I'd be more concerned about getting the most qualified person, male or female

[IndiReloaded]

Your posts are too long, as usual GS, to spend the time reading it all, but I think you're discussing male-female 'equality' (or the lack thereof). Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Cam & I had an online discussion about this sometime ago (I think it was this forum). It would be in the past year. You might want to look it up. Cam has some very definite, seasoned opinions about 'feminists'.

Its a problem. As is any extreme viewpoint. And, in our (meaning society's) attempts to 'fix things', we now have gone in the opposite direction & have created reverse discrimination, particularly against caucasian males. A lot of those males are very, very angry about this--the worrisome part is that you can't TELL they are unless you are very observant.

Funny, we were just discussing this topic this weekend (my husband & a family friend--both white, male professors & myself, a corporate PhD). One point of interest that came up was, before anyone got their backs up on this topic, was to be very careful to define what one means by 'equality'.

So, in the interest of keeping this topic civil, how does one define 'equality'? Anyone?

[IndiReloaded]

Hate to break this to you GS, but your ideas are not worthy of the 5,000 word altars you mount them on. Take a cue from comedy and get to the punch line in time relative to how good the joke actually is.

There's a lot of garbage ideas in the science literature also, BD. Take it as a learning opportunity to learn to separate cream from shit. They both float, remember. Skim for ideas & then go back & read in more detail if it merits.

[lastwish]

At first I thought the same thing.., but from a different bias.., I thought.., "wow.., misogyny doesn't even exist any more in the 21st century.., look at labor laws.., maternity leave.., there's not such thing as paternity leave.., you can take years off to spend with your child as a woman and you can't do that just because you're a man? during divorce.., automatically it's assumed in most cases that the mother would make the better parent.., or sexual harassment laws.., where boys and men are actually sexually violated but never file.., and when they do.., lose on the grounds that they're not takes seriously.., whereas women who file may win even if actual harassment hasn't even occurred.., with t-shirts with blatant statements like that.., movies and culture promoting a humorous inferior image of men and pushing for it to be accepted as the norm or a general truth.., or even representative of the majority of men.., what misogyny are they talking about?"

Yes. Bias comes from both sides. Men might get labeled as insensitive, sex hungry, etc but women also gets labeled as foolish/immature and incompetent. Men are usually expected to "bring the bacon home" and women are usually associated with issues dealing within the home or the family(family chores, taking care of children, giving birth). These sex roles has always existed so its difficult to reverse. There are some progress made to address gender based biases but it will take long while for any huge progress to be made.

I don't see labor laws (maternity leave), sexual harrassment cases, and other examples that you mentioned to be clues to these biases in our society. Rather, I think these laws exist as a response to these biases. Men always had the advantage in the work area (because they are usually labeled as more competent than the females and they don't have other committments like giving birth, doing family chores, or taking care of the children which would require them to leave their work). I know that in some families men actually does family chores and take care of the children but usually this is not the case because women were traditionally expected to take care of that area.

As for sexual harassment (where women seems to have more of an advantage in court), this is a response to the belief that the worth of a women lies in her body. Women in this case is more vulnerable to sexual attacks thus harrassment laws which seems to favor women is really there to protect the disadvantaged. I know, there are always exceptions to these cases but culture and societal beliefs has to be taken seriously in the process of making these laws. Thus, these laws are there to address and protect the disadvantage, not to reinforce inequality.

sure, laws might reinforce sex roles but the real importance is to see that certain groups are indeed vulnerable and that they need to be protected. Sure, it would be nice if men gets paternal leaves and that they are equally looked at in harrassment cases but that would mean women would be disadvantaged in the workplace because they do in fact have other commitments due to their biological make-up and societal expectations. And if we don't acknowledge that women need extra protection in harrassment laws, we will be ignoring the fact that society has always associate women with sex thus they can be more vulnerable to sexual attacks (and they usually suffer from bigger and more negative consequences too). Sure, you can argue that you cannot make the assumption that women are more vulnerable to sexual attacks(since men and women are equally horny) but the fact is that social norms and values do influence behaviours (which promotes men to seek sex while for women to shy away from the search)thus they cannot be ignored. If we were to revise or take away these laws protecting women then society would be going backwards not forward because back then women weren't protected and men ruled the world. So, you see, its really for practical reasons.

Then.., the more important question to ask would be.., what steps can we take.., to reverse the effects of a traditional gender dichotomy system.., remove any resulting sexism and gender bias.., and reflect the nature of the modern era.., where society is no longer backwards.., but has moved ahead in realizing that both sexes are equal.., and traditional gender roles (therefore.., social expectations).., no longer apply..

Hmm.., this is why free time is really.., REALLY bad for me..

Best,

GrkScorp

Maternity leave and harrassment laws aside, sexist labels should indeed be condemned. Men shouldn't be automatically be assumed as sex hungry or insensitive and women shouldn't be labeled as immature/foolish and emotionally driven. I think the only way these labels can be reversed is through the media. So, no more "shake your ass girl" videos.