Turn One night stand into a Relationship?

[lesa]

So Grk and lesa, you both have never heard of a man or woman feeling duped?

Yes, but most people can sense that something is not right. They, of course, my not know the exact details but they do know. Very few people are completely clueless in their relationship...unless they are nonobservant or foolish.

[someonelse]

isn't that y they say hindsight is 20/20

[Cain]

Yes, but most people can sense that something is not right. They, of course, my not know the exact details but they do know. Very few people are completely clueless in their relationship...unless they are nonobservant or foolish.

You said relationship. They aren't in a relationship. They f*cked on the first date. He could easily be manipulating her into sex by giving her the guy that she wants.

[lesa]

isn't that y they say hindsight is 20/20

Yep, to put it bluntly, lust can make us stupid. But when we look back on the relationship or issue/whatever, we can see that there were signs of manipulation all along. However, very few people will be happy and totally clueless unless they are having emotional or mental problem or are foolish.

We are talking about manipulative people. I am sure that a reasonably intelligent person can see through such acts.

How many people do we know was completely clueless on their partner's intentions? And are you sure it wasn't just poor communication instead?

[lesa]

You said relationship. They aren't in a relationship. They f*cked on the first date. He could easily be manipulating her into sex by giving her the guy that she wants.

I knew someone was going to say that....replace with dating relationship. That seems like very poor communication. How many men would 'fake' a relationship if that is what is communicated to him?

[lesa]

You said relationship. They aren't in a relationship. They f*cked on the first date. He could easily be manipulating her into sex by giving her the guy that she wants.

It's possible that he can manipulate her but what is the probability? She could be manipulating HIM into a relationship by f*cking on the first night. They both could be manipulating each other...but are they really clueless/foolish to think that they have what they desire?

[Cain]

You have obviously never been manipulated because if you had, you'd know that not everyone will be able to see it. A skilled manipulator - someone that does it often - has made it a habit of not getting caught. Why is it so hard to believe that men or women can manipulate someone without the other person having any idea?

They've been on what? Two dates? I don't consider that even a dating relationship. How many men will "fake" a relationship? What? You're asking how many guys will say "I won't date anyone but you"...? Come on... how many times have you heard of guys playing women. The women thought they were the only ones and there turned out to be many. Same thing with women.. reverse the roles. If a man or woman wants sex and don't want to have to work for it, they will do and say whatever the victim wants to hear in order to stay in their pants.

The point is, anyone can be manipulated. Man or woman. And both genders can manipulate. Not everyone will see the manipulation. I don't care how observant you are, there will always be someone that can manipulate you and you'll have no idea. The problem is, after the manipulation has occurred and the person finds out, then they start plugging away things that have happened during that relationship span and the THINK they know what all the signs for manipulation were. And even if they really can notice all the signs at the end, it doesn't matter, since the man or woman has already had their fun.

[Cain]

It's possible that he can manipulate her but what is the probability? She could be manipulating HIM into a relationship by f*cking on the first night. They both could be manipulating each other...but are they really clueless/foolish to think that they have what they desire?

I repeat. MOST guys don't want a RELATIONSHIP with a girl they can f*ck on the first night. They view those easy women as booty calls. Even if the guy hangs out with her on a regular basis, he does it because he knows that by the end of the night, she's going to be on her back or on her knees.

Most men want a challenge. They want a girl that's going to make him work for it. Now, when I say this, I'm speaking strictly in serious relationship terms. For a casual dating thing, a guy doesn't mind a chick that puts out on the first date. But a nice, good guy isn't going to do it.. not usually.

[lesa]

They've been on what? Two dates? I don't consider that even a dating relationship.

Wow, I was just thinking to myself that maybe I should go back and type in 'f*cking relationship but I did not want to make my OCD worse and hoped that I could still make my point across.

If I have to give such thoughts on my terminology and others correct it then why would the OP or the OP's man (whatever he is to her) would assume they are in what they desire? How can they really be manipulated at this point? They haven't had adequate communication to figure out where they stand.

I hope to never be manipulated and completely clueless about it.

[questiongirl]

"I'm just saying don't expect most nice, good guys to be eager to date a chick that you can get in bed after taking her to dinner and showing her a good time."

Then why those nice, good guys get into bed with her then? You are contradicting yourself. I respect your opinion, but definitely I wouldn't be interested in dating you and visa versa, that's for sure!! Plus those ones that I mentioned who wouldn't mind were all pretty smart, nice guys;and I'm also a very capable, very well educated person myself!! BTW, the ones you thought are "challenges," how do you know they don't sleep with you because they're just not that into you, or they never slept around in their lives at some point?? Just because they're being a "challenge" now, doesn't mean they never did sth. else at other times, or they're gonna be loyal to you in the future.

[lesa]

This topic is a good example of that implied agreement GrkScorp was talking about earlier. There is no manipulation unless someone demands the partner to change the status of what they have now.

I haven't read the old posts for awhile but I believe the OP only request was that he to not have sex with other people and he agreed I think. He is does any other thing, he was still not manipulating her because they never stated that there was more to this type of relationship.

It all comes back to communication. Too many people assuming..that's the problem.

[Cain]

"I'm just saying don't expect most nice, good guys to be eager to date a chick that you can get in bed after taking her to dinner and showing her a good time."

Then why those nice, good guys get into bed with her then? You are contradicting yourself. I respect your opinion, but definitely I wouldn't be interested in dating you and visa versa, that's for sure!! Plus those ones that I mentioned who wouldn't mind were all pretty smart, nice guys;and I'm also a very capable, very well educated person myself!! BTW, the ones you thought are "challenges," how do you know they don't sleep with you because they're just not that into you, or they never slept around in their lives at some point?? Just because they're being a "challenge" now, doesn't mean they never did sth. else at other times, or they're gonna be loyal to you in the future.

Because you're easy! That's why they sleep with you. They know it won't be a challenge.

By the way, when I set my standards, I hold true to them. Because of this, I don't go around sleeping with any easy trollop that opens her legs. I waited. My current girlfriend was a challenge, and she was a challenge to the first and only other guy she slept with as well. As I told you, most nice, good guys won't look at you as serious relationship material. You're a piece of ass.

[lesa]

It is fine to live life having only protected sexual relationships. Not everyone wants a spouse and two children with one on the way, two dogs, a cat, a big house with white picket fences, a 9 to 5 job and a minivan.

[GrkScorp]

lesa.., don't bother.., let's just pretend someone is right.., and let that person be Cain.., and let's call it a day.., no point in an internet argument.., it's like trying to explore the concept of g-d with someone who is religious.. they've been raised to think a certain way and believe certain things.., and aren't able to look outside of it.., everyone else who doesn't agree is "the devil"..

As for manipulation.., both of them can assume an endless amount of situations for which the other person is somehow manipulating them.. to quote Richard Bandler:

"He's trying to hypnotize me! He asked me "why don't you come over for dinner later"?"

John Grinder actually didn't object to this assumption.., they both sat there and analyzed the simple dinner invitation that was made to them..

Get ready for this.. Let's go ask some guys here on the forum.., some harmless questions:

- Maybe you dream of having sex with every one of the Playboy bunnies.., and Penthouse and Hustler models.., but let's just say that you met this girl.., you liked her.., and you ended up having sex.., would you dump her afterwards?

- Same situation.., only now.., you get to know her a little bit better.., and find out that she's been with 2 other guys before you.., all her friends and her family can attest to this.., and there are no other guys who claim to have had sex with her.., and she feels comfortable enough telling you about this on just the 2nd date.., how do you feel?

- Same situation.., only now.., you've been on a couple of dates.., and you feel that attraction.., that connection.., and the urge to have sex.., and you both end up having sex together.., do you think anything less of her? how do you feel?

- In all honesty.., how likely are you to stop calling and tell her.., "that was great.., see you around".., and move on to someone else?

- Has the fact that the two of you had sex together in such a short time and without breaking the bank or complicating your life or relationships with other people (friends/family) somehow changed the way you feel about her as long-term girlfriend or wife material?

I don't want to assume.., and I don't want to imply that the way I feel is representative of the majority of men.., let let's see how men feel about this.., besides me and Cain (not to imply that me or Cain are right or wrong on this issue, stance, or opinion.., it's an opinion.., and by definition.., neither right.., nor wrong)

The idea however.., is an easy sell.. to both men and women.., it's like selling the idea of g-d.. (moral appeal)

To men:

If you have sex right away.., you're a sex hungry animal who can't control himself.., sex is this very unnatural thing.., a most foul urge.., a sin.., and you must suppress it.., ignore it.., it's bad.., and people who feel the urge to have sex.., are bad people.., let's label them perverts.., jerks.., nymphs.., etc..

(negative self-image --> motivation to avoid behavior or deny urge)

If you wait.., you are a good person.., with morals.., civilized.., intelligent.., and only feel this urge when it is time to have children.. (this is how I was raised btw).., (other variations include.., "only after marriage".., or "when deeply in love")..

(positive self-image --> motivation to mimic image and role-play to fall into character)

To women:

If you have sex right away.., or too soon.., he will not respect you.., and will never be in a relationship with you.., and no way in hell will he marry you.., and to add some more to that.., we may even disown you.., blah blah blah.., besides.., men only care for one thing.., all men are looking for is to manipulate you to have sex with you.., and then leave you.., hurt you.., trick you.., etc.. the sooner you have sex.., the sooner you give up any control or power.., and let's also just add to that to top it off.., if you have sex too soon.., regardless of feels and connection or anything.., you are "easy".., and a "slut".., and a "wh0re".., and a bad person who will never go to heaven and most likely end up in hell..

(negative self-image + fear --> motivation to avoid behavior or deny urge.., and view situations through a negative lens)

The more he waits.., the more he loves you and cares about you.. (feeds directly into the need to feel loved.., wanted.., desired.., adored.., that's just an easy sales pitch to make to almost any girl).., and you are also a good person.., a smart person.., and he will respect you for it.., and fall even more in love with you.., and definitely consider you as a long-term girlfriend and wife.., forget about all the other guys you've had in the past.., the longer you wait.., the less they all matter.., trust me..

(positive self-image --> motivation to mimic image and role-play to fall into character.., deny sexual urge.., pretend there's no interest.., and even think that the longer a guy waits.., is correlated to how much he cares about you)


First of all.. HAHAHAHA! or as mis would say.., ajajajajaaaajaja..

Secondly.., imagine if men were raised to think:

"it doesn't matter if you got to know each other really well and love each other.., you've only known each other for just 2 years.., you can't just ask her to marry you.., she'll respect you less if you're that "easy".., besides.., she might value you less and divorce you quickly after you get married.., you have to wait at least until the 5th year before you can start to feel ready to pop the question.., the more she waits.., the more she loves you and cares about you.., if she can't wait until you're ready.., then she just doesn't love you.., she wasn't the right person.., and you have to find someone else who does care enough about you.."

When you're done laughing.., (or crying).., just realize exactly how equally retarded of a notion that would be.., and how far from reality that would be.., Not to imply that there wouldn't be women out there who would perhaps like to wait a little longer until they get married.., or that maybe there are even some women who would actually lose respect for the guy.., and would think that 2 years is a little too soon.., who knows? But in the grand scheme of things.., this wouldn't represent the sentiment of most women..

When a guy is willing to wait.., or break the bank.., or compromise his relationships with his friends or family.., or his life.., until you both have sex.., it's not because he loves you or cares about you.., it's because he's desperate.., and those are the guys most likely to fake relationships just to keep having sex.., denying their desperation and hiding behind either religion.., socially constructed moral appeals.., or "monogamy"..



If I was dating someone.., I would respect them if they told me.., "where is this relationship going? marriage is important to me.., and i'm not pressuring you into doing something you don't want.., but i'm not getting any younger.., and I need to know if you see us going somewhere.., or if i'm just wasting my time".. Much more than if they sat there.., got angry at me.., started doing things to try and force me to take some action.., call up their mother and have her talk to me.. etc..

That's the same courtesy I give.., a man (and a woman) isn't ashamed or afraid to voice their needs or wants.., if something is important to them.. they say it.. "marriage is important to me.., sex is important to me.., a relationship is important to me.., a family is important to me.., etc".., "and i'm not going to try and pressure you to do something you don't want to do.., but I just want to be honest.., and know if you find that important to you as well.., and if not.., then maybe we're not as compatible as we thought we were"..

Beyond being disrespectful and dishonest with the other person.., you're being disrespectful and dishonest to yourself if you don't voice your thoughts and instead deny them or pretend they don't matter..

[Cain]

Yeah, because I certainly mentioned all of those things, right? I must be the only person that believe a person shouldn't be ****ing anyone just because they "connected" after one ****ing date.