imagine if you didn't have to pay taxes

[ecojeanne]

That sounds rather bad, Eco. Your barter system is a possible local solution. Again, tho, it will suffer from scale problems beyond your local community. Buy gold w/your cash. Inflation can be a problem if dollars aren't moving.

indi when you say inflation (atm i trying to learn more about economics coz of all this), my understanding is that with no movement of money does that increase or decrease inflation? i guess it depends on the central bank. i read in the financial times yesterday that the central bank has slowed printing therefore that would indicate that the euro will contract (ie less money in the system) therefore inflation goes down....is this correct?

and if it goes down then the value of the euro goes up right? and prices reduce.

does that sound correct?

also banks have stopped lending, less money to lend effectively due to the central bank, surely this should be the other way around to stimulate the economy again?

[ecojeanne]

also the media here was unreal, constant belragging (on the radio, news, papers..doom and gloom in our faces) people saying we're in a recession and creating a hype, ive never seen anything like it, it was almost like a propoganda campaign to convince the public we're screwed. and sure enough people were scared to spend and then sure enough companies had loss in revenue and sure enough people got laid off...

the media have been doing this for months to the run up of the bank crisis which really contributed as the ultimate force.....the feckin media i consider had a big part to play in this mindset of the people and the very sudden downfall

infact i have the exact date this media campaign started; jun 24th this year. we were doing fine at that time, altho prices of property had started to stagnate. i think if the media hadn't hyped it up so much people wouldnt have curtailed their spending which lead to this situation now

were there any other countries that had a similar problem like this? or this a punishment for not accepting the lisbon treaty (the european constitution) we rejected it based on the fact that a small group of countries would have the say in european decisions that would affect our country without us being able to fully contribute...of course we rejected it.

[vaneigem]

also the media here was unreal, constant belragging (on the radio, news, papers..doom and gloom in our faces) people saying we're in a recession and creating a hype, ive never seen anything like it, it was almost like a propoganda campaign to convince the public we're screwed. and sure enough people were scared to spend and then sure enough companies had loss in revenue and sure enough people got laid off...

the media have been doing this for months to the run up of the bank crisis which really contributed as the ultimate force.....the feckin media i consider had a big part to play in this mindset of the people and the very sudden downfall

Why would the media want to convince everyone they're screwed?

The contrary is true. For the last 20 years we've been told the economy is doing great thanks to all the cuts, privatisations, poorer working conditions,(dubbed a "flexible" labour market) and relentless attempts to squeeze as much money out of supposedly public services for private investors. That the gap between rich and poor has been growing to historically unprecedented proportions, and with massive expansion of credit to artifically maintain a consumer boom that people simply can't afford anymore thanks to all these right wing economic policies, and that credit's % of gdp has been rising to even higher than it was during the great depression has been roundly ignored by the media, until the effects have started to become impossible to deny.


And incidentally, what's wrong with income tax? A progressive income tax where those with higher incomes pay a greater share of their income is much more just than a sales tax which means that those with the lowest incomes pay the highest share of their income.

EDIT: Actually, just been reading your other posts. You sound like you'd be interested in anarcho-syndicalism; you ought to read some Noam Chomsky.

[ecojeanne]

Why would the media want to convince everyone they're screwed?

The contrary is true. For the last 20 years we've been told the economy is doing great thanks to all the cuts, privatisations, poorer working conditions,(dubbed a "flexible" labour market) and relentless attempts to squeeze as much money out of supposedly public services for private investors. That the gap between rich and poor has been growing to historically unprecedented proportions, and with massive expansion of credit to artifically maintain a consumer boom that people simply can't afford anymore thanks to all these right wing economic policies, and that credit's % of gdp has been rising to even higher than it was during the great depression has been roundly ignored by the media, until the effects have started to become impossible to deny.


And incidentally, what's wrong with income tax? A progressive income tax where those with higher incomes pay a greater share of their income is much more just than a sales tax which means that those with the lowest incomes pay the highest share of their income.

EDIT: Actually, just been reading your other posts. You sound like you'd be interested in anarcho-syndicalism; you ought to read some Noam Chomsky.

well in Ireland this is what i have witnessed the last few months from the media, it was constantly talked about and discussed by family and friends, customers of mine and everyone. but my train of thought has brought me to the point that the powerful few countries of the EU were very unhappy with Irelands decision to reject the eu constitution and ridiculed our government. You see here in Ireland government have no choice but to allow the people to vote, they cannot ratify a treaty like that without a vote. every other country in the EU was forced to accept it by their governments without a vote.

incidentally i have no problem with income tax if used for the people. however in the US there is confusion about this. also whats the story with the federal reserve bank taking the income tax for the interest rate on what it lends the US government, it seems an impossible situation for the american people to ever pay that debt off...'private' bank ethics.....bit screwed up if you ask me

[vaneigem]

Everyone, and the media, are talking about it because it IS a big deal; lots of companies are going bust and lots of people are losing their jobs and more will come. I'm not saying the media doesn't distort the truth sometimes, but when it does distort the truth it's usually in the interests of big business, as after all newspapers are owned by people who have investments in all sorts.
What possible motive could big business have to discourage people from spending to cause a recession? Recessions not only hurt profits as well as people, but they undermine the legitimacy of capitalism itself.

[ecojeanne]

Everyone, and the media, are talking about it because it IS a big deal; lots of companies are going bust and lots of people are losing their jobs and more will come. I'm not saying the media doesn't distort the truth sometimes, but when it does distort the truth it's usually in the interests of big business, as after all newspapers are owned by people who have investments in all sorts.
What possible motive could big business have to discourage people from spending to cause a recession? Recessions not only hurt profits as well as people, but they undermine the legitimacy of capitalism itself.

ye believable; if the recession talk had not started in jun here in Ireland (btw it was the 12th of jun we rejected the treaty and the recession talk started the 24th jun). you see rich get richer in a recession, property is at all time lows, the rich buy up stock, companies and property, then make huge profits when things get better. i'm sure you are aware when people are vulnerable thats when they get manipulated into passing laws that if they were in a different state of mind would be able to see through. i would imagine the government are going to try to pass this constitution again and miraculously the economy will begin to get better after people have been manipulated to pass this. i know it sounds far fetched, hell it sounds far fetched to me, it's my train of thought right now taking into account the last few months

[starbuck]

Eco, if you're confused about where Americans' federal tax dollars go. Here's an article that explains:

[url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18098378/[/url]

A snippet from the article:

"Last year, the three biggest federal budget items were Social Security, health care and defense spending — each of which ate up about $200 of your $1,000 weekly paycheck.

Even though you may not have health insurance, about $219.40 of every $1,000 of your taxes went to pay for health care last year. On an annual salary of $52,000, that works out to $11,408.80 a year. The biggest chunk of that ($124.20 per thousand) went to pay for Medicare, which provides health coverage for people over 65. The rest ($95.20) went for Medicaid, which covers low-income families and individual, and state administered health coverage for children."

However, where state income taxes go varies wildly from state to state, so that may be where some of the confusion lies?

[vaneigem]

ye believable; if the recession talk had not started in jun here in Ireland (btw it was the 12th of jun we rejected the treaty and the recession talk started the 24th jun). you see rich get richer in a recession, property is at all time lows, the rich buy up stock, companies and property, then make huge profits when things get better. i'm sure you are aware when people are vulnerable thats when they get manipulated into passing laws that if they were in a different state of mind would be able to see through. i would imagine the government are going to try to pass this constitution again and miraculously the economy will begin to get better after people have been manipulated to pass this. i know it sounds far fetched, hell it sounds far fetched to me, it's my train of thought right now taking into account the last few months

That's just coincidence; while it's true that the Irish have been treated with scorn and contempt for rejecting the treaty, I don't see how what relates to the recession which is talked about globally, not just in Ireland; june was when it became obvious that we're in a recession, but even so I bet that wasn't when you first started hearing about it; Northern Rock almost collapsed well before then and you would have heard about that.

And maybe it can be good for SOME of the rich in the long term, but it's so uncertain there's no way they'd want it to happen. There's a lot of bankruptcies and you can't predict who that'll happen to. One wealthy capitalist who went bankrupt from the recession freaked out and killed his entire family and then himself; and during the great depression there was plenty of stories about bankrupt stockbrokers jumping from skyscrapers.

And also, the recession isn't caused by people choosing not to spend as much. The problem is all the fictitious capital caused by extended credit so much from people being unable to spend enough to keep the economy afloat, and which is now disappearing as it becomes clear people can't pay it all back. Credit came up to over 300% of GDP, and the last time it peaked it got to 270% at the Wall Street Crash; then fell to a healthy 80% or so after the depression cleared up, only to begin steadily rising again by the 80s. If you really want to understand what causes this, I recommend you invest some time into reading Marx's Capital.