do yourself a favor

[ecojeanne]

toox that was really nice to read, sweet.

[Tiay]

wow. you guys got all that from the OP's one liner?

I skipped through this thread and didn't read everything, but I will add this:

I assume we can all agree that people who want to have kids together should be committed to each other and raising their kids together.

right?

well then, marriage is just our cultural/religious/whatever expression of this commitment. Other people may chose to express it differently, and have equally successful relationships.

the difference between a successful family and a broken one isn't marriage, it's the before-mentioned commitment. It so happens that a lot of people in our culture chose to express this by getting married, to them that's what makes it 'official'.
But this does not by any means imply that everyone who gets married has the right attitude towards it, or that the absence of marriage means that a couple is not just as committed.
I think it is so interwoven with culture that it is impossible to really tell by statistics.

[IndiReloaded]

Why are you people so cynical? I can't wait to get married to the man i fall in love with...

This is the problem right here^. You kids need to stop equating marriage with romance. It should be thought of more of a business contract, one involving mutual commitment to raising healthy, reasonable children. Given that men & women are so financially independent these days, that particular reason has been taken out of the marriage equation. Really, I would only recommend young folks get married if they are planning of having kids.

Its not cynicism. Its realism.

prolonging a relationship with marriage does not mean that the children grow up in a better environment, even if it's true that marriage prolongs relationships.

Again, I think that if ppl can learn to uncouple romantic expectations from the state of marriage, things would get a LOT better for the kids.

Too many ppl, men & women still buy into this idea that romance should culminate in marriage. Its the Cinderella Lie. And its bullshit.

If you want constant romance, butterflies and Prince Charming, then do serial monogamous relationships. Stay as long as its good and then move on when trouble hits. Don't expect this from marriage. I'm deadly serious about this, "happily ever after" is something you MUST accept up front as something that is a fantasy.

For any young gals out there (especially Ms. "I can't wait") thinking you are the special, different case on this: You aren't. Go ahead and ask the longtime married folk on here: me, Vash, Squirrley (anyone else?). Or those here who grew up in stable homes--perhaps Cam will comment.

I'm not a bitter married woman, btw, just a realistic one. I actually really like my husband, but he does drive me nuts sometimes and the feeling is mutual.

So. If you want to combine resources and grow a comfortable life together to do more of what you like, and raise children to become decent, intelligent and reasonable members of society, then you could consider marriage. Its not the only way, but its a time-tested model that does work when done right.

Keep your expectations reasonable. Know what you want. Know how to ask, nicely, for what you want. Don't expect other ppl to fix your problems for you. Raise reasonable children if you choose to have them. That is marriage. Butterflies are nice when they choose to alight but are not strictly required.

Think about it.

I remember my mother and step father saying they would stay together "for the kids".

I wish I could've beat the f*ck out of them then because it was easily the worse of the 2 choices.

They're still technically married, but now he lives with my 2 f*cked up abusive little sisters and my mom lives at our old home.

Fighting every day.

Not just fighting, low and dirty kind of fighting, with a swung arm to boot, and a broken dish or glass.

Yeah, stay together for the kids.

Why is the house so dirty? Oh, because the kids won't help clean up the mess the mother made.

Why are we on welfare? Because pussy of the house can't seem to keep a proper job and spends most of his time playing computer games and looking at porn.

Fras, your parents problem isn't marriage. Its that they are lazy, mentally and possibly otherwise. Sorry, not to insult them, but to educate YOU.

They could have stayed together for the kids. Its actually a GOOD thing to do, IMO. But what they should have done, once that decision was made, was to shut the hell up about it and go on with the business of actually DOING it. You kids should NEVER have been privy to their reasons & dragged into things. I am sorry that happened to you. Really.

Understand where they went wrong and don't repeat their mistakes. Learn from them.

[IndiReloaded]

That will come down to agreeing to a shared responsibility, You are not comfortable with that? Shared responsibility involves control in certain areas for both partners (meaning he will have certain control and you will have certain control) that's what being partners (equals) is all about.

Here's an example of a young man who understands the reality of marriage and kids, at least theoretically. Ladies, pay attention: It might sound boring, but in the end, its what will actually matter. This is what you want to look for from a guy if you want kids and a stable marriage that will last.

Beware, tho girls, he's going to be looking very carefully at your attitudes too.

[Only-virgins]

Need we say more? [url]http://www.loveforum.net/ask-male-forum/28340-sex.html[/url]

Don't get married!

[Junket]

Fras, your parents problem isn't marriage. Its that they are lazy, mentally and possibly otherwise.

Um, no.

My mother and stepfather's marriage in fact was a problem. And clearly more for us than it was for them, as it was us who had to live with their immature, f*cked up decisions until we turned 18 and had a place to go.

I don't give a shit about what their problems were because they were the problem.

[IndiReloaded]

Fras, perhaps my post wasn't clear. Sorry. What I am saying is that parents (mom/stepdad) should keep their marriage issues b/t them. Kids shouldn't be privy to the adult reasons behind whatever decisions we make. If your parents chose to stay married for you kids, even if they weren't totally happy doing it, they should have been adult enough to put a happy face on it. Its sounds fake but its not and it really does help the children. Some ppl do manage this, therefore the problem isn't marriage its the way ppl go about it.

Anyway, I'm sorry you went through what you did. It sounds really crappy and I'm sure the reality of it was even worse. Kudos to you for coming out of it on the right side.

[IndiReloaded]

I was in the same shoes always being the one who had to make sane decisions for both mom and stepdad.

This is an appalling thing to do to one's children. I know it happens and I know life isn't all flowers and sunshine, but I still think its horrible.

For the record, I am pro mandatory patch contraceptive for all fertile adults until they have successfully completed an approved parenting & relationship course. I don't care how socialist it sounds, I want kids to be protected from this shit.

[CAM]

In 6,000 years of recorded history, all lasting and relevant civilisations have included a matrimonial ceremony as the basis of a bond between man and woman and the raising of children. All short lived and irrelevant civilisations have relied heavily on casual relationships and illegitimacy. Sorry, but its a fact.

The current "live together" crap is crap. It is PRIMITIVE. It is a relatively recent phenomenon in advanced societies and guess what...those societies are now failing. Wonder why....(its one of many reasons, but the family or lack thereof, is usually the first spot of decay)

What I see here is several people who forget that in order for civilisation to thrive, it is our duty to try to form a matrimonial bond and to have legitimate children. Many wish to be hedonistic and selfish, forgetting the obligation to support the very civilisation which gave you the life you lead (to include the time you have to **** around on the Internet).

Also, I see a few women here who are androgynists, those who fear and/or hate men. And a few men who have forgotten what it means to be a man or are, at least, running from that responsibility. In both cases, anti-social behavior and anti-societal.

I would love to meet the pro-social woman who wishes to share a life with me, share responsibilities, and raise nice children. Unfortunately a hard thing to find, but I do try and I do want these things.

[misombra]

This is an appalling thing to do to one's children. I know it happens and I know life isn't all flowers and sunshine, but I still think its horrible.

For the record, I am pro mandatory patch contraceptive for all fertile adults until they have successfully completed an approved parenting & relationship course. I don't care how socialist it sounds, I want kids to be protected from this shit.

if only things could be so good. unfortunately most people do not grow up with such commited/devoted parents. hate to be a cynical urchin again, but most families suck, like frizbeeeees'.


it would be so nice if everybody could have great lives, but greatness comes out of imperfection. fortunately and unfortunately.

if life hadn't have been so fuked up for us, a lot of us people in this forum wouldn't be so beautiful.

[CAM]

I'm think that you are the victim of your college education. Just because they teach you this stuff in college doesn't mean that you have to drink the Kool-Aid.

[misombra]

would you be directing that post toward me?

[CAM]

BTW the "you" to which I refer above would be Mis

[CAM]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds Mis if you are discussing the Roussean "victim" stuff...right???

[misombra]

i'm actually denying the victim thing. but for some of us that weren't born to such straight lined parents, those of us who are "imperfect," have more of an inherent knowledge and appreciation of what is right and good in the world.