Apologists for Evil

[Gigabitch]

Eco, why this obsession with the media? Do you think it's not possible that I, especially at my age and with the amount of education I've had, can't come to my own conclusions? Do you think I watch Fox News or something?

I think it would be a good idea for you to seek out an authority, someone you respect completely, and get some actual data about life for fundamentalist Muslim women, both in their countries of origin and in the West. Ask specifically about the burqa, not just hijab, which can be interpreted very loosely by progressive Muslims. Remember, it's not progressive Muslims we're talking about here, it's fundamentalists. Old school Muslims. Extremists.

Clearly, you don't believe anyone on Love Forum. You seem to be desperate to believe that these women have the same lifestyle you do, just with a different outfit on. You could not be more wrong, or more culturally insensitive.

[IndiReloaded]

LOL. Mbe we should set up a section of the forum for people like Eco.

[ecojeanne]

Eco, why this obsession with the media? Do you think it's not possible that I, especially at my age and with the amount of education I've had, can't come to my own conclusions? Do you think I watch Fox News or something?

I think it would be a good idea for you to seek out an authority, someone you respect completely, and get some actual data about life for fundamentalist Muslim women, both in their countries of origin and in the West. Ask specifically about the burqa, not just hijab, which can be interpreted very loosely by progressive Muslims. Remember, it's not progressive Muslims we're talking about here, it's fundamentalists. Old school Muslims. Extremists.

Clearly, you don't believe anyone on Love Forum. You seem to be desperate to believe that these women have the same lifestyle you do, just with a different outfit on. You could not be more wrong, or more culturally insensitive.

no that's not what it's about, i dont measure anything on how i live that's what i have been saying all along. it is about people getting together to discuss a culture and interfere with a culture and judge a culture based on how 'they' live and therefore expect the other cultures to live. and you clearly can't see what i'm saying.

[IndiReloaded]

I dont measure anything on how i live that's what i have been saying all along.

Consider that maybe this is your problem, Eco.

If those who came before you *hadn't* made those measurements and stood up for their morals and the rights of others, you wouldn't have the right to be the ignorant cow you are apparently content to remain being.



Sorry, Gig. I call it how it is. This girl doesn't even have a clue how she got to where she is. How could her opinion even make any sense in this context?

[ecojeanne]

we irish were indeed oppressed and the irish people before me stood up to the oppressors, thank goodness otherwise we would still be trying to stand up. we didn't have to put up with the opression forever. you seem to forget indi america and the british interfere with cultures for the benefit of theirs not for any other reason....history speaks for itself

[Gigabitch]

no that's not what it's about, i dont measure anything on how i live that's what i have been saying all along. it is about people getting together to discuss a culture and interfere with a culture and judge a culture based on how 'they' live and therefore expect the other cultures to live. and you clearly can't see what i'm saying.

The whole argument is about whether oppression of women is to be upheld in the UK because liberals, who usually can be counted upon to stand up for human rights, are too confused by their own conflicted feelings about cultural tolerance to properly separate "anti-Muslim" from "anti-woman".

What if people move in next door to you who think cute little dogs are a delicacy? Are you going to let them eat your pets? What if they have 20 Schnauzers and you know they're being eaten, one by one? Would you care? Would you say something? What if they were roasting them in the backyard and you could smell it? Would you just celebrate their right to do so?

Believe me, women in fundamentalist Muslim culture have about as many rights as those dogs, no matter what the government says where they live.

[ecojeanne]

What if people move in next door to you who think cute little dogs are a delicacy? Are you going to let them eat your pets? What if they have 20 Schnauzers and you know they're being eaten, one by one? Would you care? Would you say something? What if they were roasting them in the backyard and you could smell it? Would you just celebrate their right to do so?

Believe me, women in fundamentalist Muslim culture have about as many rights as those dogs, no matter what the government says where they live.

what about all the other animals that are eaten? and why would they be eating my pet? if it's their culture to eat dogs as is the case in some countries, it's not up to me to stop them. it's up to me to vote someone into government who will hopefully make it possible to educate people on what foods can give them the same nutritional benefits. you can;t really compare pets in this scenario, all kinds of animals are consumed on a daily basis, how does society decide which ones deserve to be saved and which ones don't?

it's up to the individuals themselves to switch off their conscience or not. it's not an ideal world.

why should you be making these decisions for muslim women? it's not your culture, is it?

[Gigabitch]

if it's their culture to eat dogs as is the case in some countries, it's not up to me to stop them. it's up to me to vote someone into government who will hopefully make it possible to educate people on what foods can give them the same nutritional benefits.

Why would you do something so obviously intolerant of their right to eat all the dogs they want?

why should you be making these decisions for muslim women? it's not your culture, is it?

I think all people should stand up for basic human rights, even if it (gasp!) crosses cultural boundaries.

Exactly the point. You've got this "tolerance" thing going on because you think it's the groovy thing to do. How far does that go, I wonder? Would you watch a Christian Scientist kid die, slowly, because her parents have some insane belief that disease is caused by sin? What if they lived right next door to you, and you could hear her crying out in pain and her parents praying loudly for the Devil to leave her body, when all she really needs is a trip to the hospital?

That's not your culture, now is it?

[ecojeanne]

c'mon it's not ok to kill. end of. even for whatever self righteous reason. that's not what tolerance is about. you just have to get extreme about this to try to prove your point. this is the sort of tactics used by governments around the world to convince people it's ok to kill to 'save' them when history has proven otherwise. you have become part of the system that promotes the interference based on 'righteous' reasons you are not even part of. how could you possibly understand.

[Gigabitch]

Actually, under sharia, it IS okay for a man to kill his wife or daughter if she has offended the law. Do you know what kinds of things qualify as this caliber of offense?

Do you even know anything about this, or are you just comfortable turning blind eye in the name of liberalism?

[Sonrisa]

i found this pretty interesting:

Women's rights

In terms of women's rights, women generally had more legal rights under Islamic law than they did under Western legal systems until the 19th and 20th centuries. For example, "French married women, unlike their Muslim sisters, suffered from restrictions on their legal capacity which were removed only in 1965."Noah Feldman, a Harvard University law professor, notes:
As for sexism, the common law long denied married women any property rights or indeed legal personality apart from their husbands. When the British applied their law to Muslims in place of Shariah, as they did in some colonies, the result was to strip married women of the property that Islamic law had always granted them — hardly progress toward equality of the sexes.

Women also had the right to challenge or oppose any laws proposed by a Caliph. In the 7th century, when the Caliph Umar proposed a change in Islamic marital jurisprudence at a mosque, he was challenged by an old unknown woman who stated: "You shall not deprive us [women] of what God gave us." The woman cited a passage from the Qur'an as support and thus Umar had no choice but to declare: "The woman is right and the Khalifah is wrong."At the time of the Prophet Muhammad, he often sought advice from women in regards to political matters, and a delegation of Arab women once "extended the bay'ah to him," thus establishing "the right of Muslim women to participate in the political process."

Some argue that the cultural argument within Sharia for the rights of women states that Muslim women by virtue of accepting Islam voluntarily submit themselves to God and the veil. The veil is considered a sign of modesty, so that she may be regarded as an intelligent human and not merely an object of desire. Some also argue that according to Sharia's concept of blood money (Diyya) a woman is worth half that of a man.

[ecojeanne]

i'm not turning a blind eye. at the end of the day they have to stand up for their rights. it's never ok to kill just like the death penalty is not ok. the irish got killed, the iraqies got killed and god knows how many other cultures got butchered. the people always stand up or at least try, how many other countries intervened when the US went into iraq? no-one because the US had the power to pillage due to their brainwashing propoganda thru the media to convince the people that they would be saving them. how many have died for oil? and there are many many examples throughout history.

[IndiReloaded]

Gig, why bother? She's an apologist. Ignorance abounds in most of humanity, she's not unique. YES, she would let a child die. YES, she would let a neighbour be beaten b/c its their cultural right to be so.

Focus your efforts on those who don't need to be convinced these things are wrong. This is just wasted energy.

[ecojeanne]

lol indi ya never change, when you can't actually answer back. classic. how many times have people ignored my comments on US and British interference that has made the world 'such a wonderful place to live' today...i know who the apologists are, only they don't even realise they are apologists.....how sad is that.

[Yggdrasil]

i wanna call the police and complain about all the white people in my neighborhood.

I am white and I approve this message