Discuss amongst yourselves

[IndiReloaded]

yes, Skinner Box. My mistake.

Sorry Cam, I wasn't being a pedant, I just wondered what you were meaning and if it was something new I hadn't heard of (like xmas for me.

[NeoSeminole]

IndiReloaded says:

"Well, unlike God, these things exist and you can go out and experience them for yourself to make an informed decision. You don't have to take my word for it. So, in this particular argument Neo you are the one arguing on faith, not me. I am arguing based on solid experience of *both* (sex & non-sex gratification). You are the one arguing from a lack of experience in at least one."

your argument basically amounts to "take my word for it." All it would take is for someone who has experienced both and disagrees with you to nullify your argument.

"Again, gourmet vs. gruel. But some people are perfectly happy with gruel, they don't aspire to more. I suppose that's you and that's perfectly fine."

<sigh> whatever makes you feel better.

"I think a decade from now, you will think differently. I certainly hope so, for your sake."

I hope that 10 yrs from now, you will expand your thinking. I certainly hope so, for your sake.

"Well, if I'm delusional at least its by choice after having explored the options that are out there. The same cannot be said for you, young Neo."

what makes you think I haven't explored other options?

"Your argument is flagging. You haven't posted any biological support for your claim"

neither have you.

[IndiReloaded]

I don't need to post biological support. I didn't make the assertion there was a biological connection, YOU did. Therefore, the onus of proof is on you.

All it would take is for someone who has experienced both and disagrees with you to nullify your argument.

Agreed. But, noone here has yet to do so, Neo. Cam, Doc, myself--we all agree. We have yet to hear from Ygg, Lite, Carl, Vash, Giga, BlueSum, but I already know they will agree with me.

You have set yourself up to defend a ridiculous position, Neo. You really do have an ego problem, hun. You don't know how to lose gracefully, do you?

I wish you well in your studies, and your quest for growth. Your attitude tells me you have a long way to go, which could be viewed as an opportunity and not a failing. Just keep your mind open to possibilities, Neo. You know far less than you think you do. There will always be people who know more, are more experienced than you. Try not to view that as too big a hit to your ego. Its expected at your age. What will distinguish you from your peers, is that you actually try to learn from those who are willing to share their experience and knowledge with you instead of being resentful of them.

What is the difference Neo, between someone being wrong and not knowing the answer?

Attitude.

*kiss*

[misombra]

i think a lot of girls give it up easily because they were not taught that they deserve better. a lot of girls grow up without fathers or other male figures in their lives or are treated like shit by the males in their lives.

that's why it's important for men to be a good examples to girls/ females. and that's also why i have no love for guys who fuk girls they do not care about. that just reinforces the problem.

[NeoSeminole]

IndiReloaded says:

"I don't need to post biological support. I didn't make the assertion there was a biological connection, YOU did. Therefore, the onus of proof is on you."

my evidence is animal behavior. All animals exhibit a strong desire to mate. This instinct is paramount for the survival of a species. We have also identified the parts of the brain and chemical messengers involved in sexual behavior. These findings suggests that our brains evolved an intricate system of neural circuitry for sex. Now where is your proof besides "take my word for it"?

"Agreed. But, noone here has yet to do so, Neo. Cam, Doc, myself--we all agree. We have yet to hear from Ygg, Lite, Carl, Vash, Giga, BlueSum, but I already know they will agree with me."

see argumentum ad populum.

by the way, I applaud your efforts for engaging me in discussion. That's why I thanked you.

[IndiReloaded]

IndiReloaded says:

"I don't need to post biological support. I didn't make the assertion there was a biological connection, YOU did. Therefore, the onus of proof is on you."

my evidence is animal behavior. All animals exhibit a strong desire to mate. This instinct is paramount for the survival of a species. We have also identified the parts of the brain and chemical messengers involved in sexual behavior. These findings suggests that our brains evolved an intricate system of neural circuitry for sex. Now where is your proof?

That's not proof, Neo. You made a specific claim for which there is no research to back it up.

I could argue likewise that animal behaviour says that we should all just grub in the dirt, not plan for tomorrow (no school, no job, no internet forum, for that matter), and just kill each other when someone has a resource we don't. That is also animal behaviour. But, this is not how civilized humans behave.

Are you simply an uncivilized animal? Is that your point?

"Agreed. But, noone here has yet to do so, Neo. Cam, Doc, myself--we all agree. We have yet to hear from Ygg, Lite, Carl, Vash, Giga, BlueSum, but I already know they will agree with me."

see argumentum ad populum.[/QUOTE]

Again, it was YOUR point (that all it would take is someone *with experience* to disagree). So, if we can get someone here who can credibly say they have both types of experience and that you are correct, I'd concede there are at least some people wired the way you say.

But right now, all your argument is based on incomplete evidence, and only your own. You have drawn conclusions without doing a proper experiment.

There is nothing wrong with having multiple people agree with me on this. We are describing the opinions of a population. How do you think social statistics works?

[IndiReloaded]

by the way, I applaud your efforts for engaging me in discussion. That's why I thanked you.

You are welcome, Neo. I am happy to share my experience and knowledge with you. I enjoy it b/c I can do so more freely here than I am able to do w/young people your age IRL.

I have to admit, I also find your attitude interesting. I would never have dated someone like you (truth), and I'm sure the converse is the case. You would have found me sexually frustrating, for starters.

[NeoSeminole]

IndiReloaded says:

"That's not proof, Neo. You made a specific claim for which there is no research to back it up."

what claim are you referring to then? I thought you wanted evidence that our brains are hard-wired to prioritize sex.

"I could argue likewise that animal behaviour says that we should all just grub in the dirt, not plan for tomorrow (no school, no job, no internet forum, for that matter), and just kill each other when someone has a resource we don't. That is also animal behaviour. But, this is not how civilized humans behave."

actually, those things you mentioned would go against animal behavior. Animals plan for the future all the time (e.g. setting up traps for food, building dwellings for protection against predators, migrating to more hospitable environments, preparing for hibernation, etc) and would rather use intimidation to scare away competitors than risk injury in a fight. Of course, you already knew all that... right Indi? ;-)

"But right now, all your argument is based on incomplete evidence, and only your own. You have drawn conclusions without doing a proper experiment."

since there is no objective way to measure fulfillment, all we can do is extrapolate based on what we know.

[IndiReloaded]

You are trying to confound the point. Which is, simply put, there is no evidence that gratification from sex outweighs the things which I mentioned. Not for humans. You asked for examples of things that give as much pleasure, or more, than sex and you have no way to refute what I have said. Except to experience these things for yourself and THEN make a value judgement. Until you do, you are arguing from a weak position.

since there is no objective way to measure fulfillment, all we can do is extrapolate based on what we know.

Exactly my point^. I am glad you understand finally.

And, what I know is both your experience, as well as my experiences which you have yet to have. See my point above.

Do you really find it so hard to believe that people do things with their lives for reasons that are larger than sex, Neo? Again, I say you aren't challenging yourself enough if this is what you think.

Why are you wanting to become a Physician Assistant (and eventually a doctor, I'd bet)? Is it just so you can collect a pay cheque and hit up chicks for sex in bars/the gym?

Are you saying that, given the choice b/t working late to save a young girls life, or hitting the bar and having an orgasm, that you would really get more satisfaction out of the latter?

No way. I don't believe that of you, not for a second.

[IndiReloaded]

what claim are you referring to then? I thought you wanted evidence that our brains are hard-wired to prioritize sex.

Just to be clear: this was not your initial assertion. It was that there was *nothing* more important. This is the statement I take issue with:

haha, what could possibly be more fulfilling than sex? The desire to copulate is one of our strongest instincts. Our brains are even hardwired to reward us for sex. You can spout your poetic rhetoric about finding more fulfilling levels of happiness but you're only deluding yourself if you actually believe this.

Hence, the list of examples that I gave and other comments of support.

Noone has said sex isn't important. Just that its not even close to the be-all, end-all for civilized humans.

[NeoSeminole]

IndiReloaded says:

"You are trying to confound the point. Which is, simply put, there is no evidence that gratification from sex outweighs the things which I mentioned. Not for humans. You asked for examples of things that give as much pleasure, or more, than sex and you have no way to refute what I have said. Except to experience these things for yourself and THEN make a value judgement. Until you do, you are arguing from a weak position."

I don't buy into the mentality that you need to experience something in order to comment on it. It's possible to extrapolate ideas using what we know.

"Exactly my point^. I am glad you understand finally."

why do you say "finally?" What do you think I've been doing all along?

"Do you really find it so hard to believe that people do things with their lives for reasons that are larger than sex, Neo? Again, I say you aren't challenging yourself enough if this is what you think."

yes and no

"Why are you wanting to become a Physician Assistant (and eventually a doctor, I'd bet)? Is it just so you can collect a pay cheque and hit up chicks for sex in bars/the gym?"

b/c I consider the medical treatment of man to be the most essential and rewarding profession.

"Are you saying that, given the choice b/t working late to save a young girls life, or hitting the bar and having an orgasm, that you would really get more satisfaction out of the latter?"

ahh, now you're starting to get somewhere. I actually thought of something more fulfilling than sex, but I'm waiting to see if one of you will think it up on your own.

[Mish]

Sex is fleeting, these other things are not.

After having had lots of sex with lots of women I can admit that it's just one of the rewards of being in a good relationship. The best reward being finding a rhythm with another person, a type of equilibrium in every experience. Where you give and you are given and momentum continues.

[IndiReloaded]

Neo, you really are a devil. I'm glad you had your epiphany.

[CAM]

Indi says to Neo: "Are you going to actually provide support for this^, or shall we agree this is merely the unsupported opinion of a young 20-something with little education and no experience with long term relationships, children, marriage or a career?"

REPLY: Well, Indi...he does sound like he has just enough experience and education to be come one of those hard-wired men who father unwanted children with their female counterparts...well, because they're just hardwired to be socially irresponsible.

[IndiReloaded]

Indi says to Neo: "Are you going to actually provide support for this^, or shall we agree this is merely the unsupported opinion of a young 20-something with little education and no experience with long term relationships, children, marriage or a career?"

REPLY: Well, Indi...he does sound like he has just enough experience and education to be come one of those hard-wired men who father unwanted children with their female counterparts...well, because they're just hardwired to be socially irresponsible.

What do you think, Neo? Is this^ really you?