Have I Lost Him?

[Burke]

I'm afraid I might have outgrown my husband.

He lost his job in June 2009, which prompted me to "officially" start working as a freelance writer. I've always wanted to write for a living. The long-overdue realization that I can control my own life has led to a strong desire to gain more clarity, control, and happiness.

I feel like my family is getting in the way of these goals, however.

I care about my husband and our kids very much, but I don't feel like any of them care much about me.

Since we were married six years ago, my husband has relied on me to handle every aspect of running a household - everything from general chores such as dishes and laundry to cooking, paying the bills, balancing bank accounts, and taking care of the children. He looks to me to help him remember basic details of his own life, such as our address, phone number, and the names of our utility companies. If you asked him his own Social Security number, he'd look at me to remind him. Now, on top of those "duties", I'm also trying to find the time and energy to spend four to eight hours a day writing.

Needless to say, this is overwhelming. I've spoken to him about taking on some extra duties around the house several times - about once a year, we have a day-long argument about it - but nothing has changed.

I've recently begun trying to switch myself over to a nocturnal schedule, in order to get a good six to eight hour stretch of time during the night in which I can actually work in peace. This means that my husband has to watch the kids while I sleep in the afternoons - generally from noon until six or seven. They're still very young so they're asleep from noon until three or four, meaning he only actually has to watch them for four hours at the most.

He understands that I need to get a decent amount of sleep in order to be productive and alert, yet he continues to interrupt me to announce the baby is crying, or she needs to be changed, or that he can't find something in the house; and, if I manage to get some sleep, when I get up (between five and six thirty), I usually find that the kids haven't been fed, he's done nothing to tidy the house, and as soon as I come out of the bedroom, he goes in to play video games.

This, by the way, is pretty much all he does - from the time he wakes up until he's too exhausted to stare at the computer screen. He might watch the kids for me for an hour, but he'll complain the whole time; and it takes me two days of repeated asking to convince him to go to the grocery store.

Again, I've spoken to him about this. Whenever I try to communicate my needs, he finds a way to turn my words around so that *he* is the victim, and makes me feel terrible for complaining - and, like I said, nothing changes.

I'm not sure if I'm in love with him anymore. I care about him; I like spending time with him - but I really dislike living with him. His utter lack of appreciation, gratitude, or participation makes me feel lonely, resentful, and frustrated. I tell him this at least once a year. He doesn't seem to care.

His interests, tastes, and hobbies are almost completely different from mine. When we first got together, I was happy to indulge in junk food, alcohol, recreational drugs, and endless video games, but now, I want to try to cut those influences out of my life. I know that making those changes while he's around will lead to endless mockery, which will erode my self-discipline and make me feel "stupid" for making these new choices. As it is, my opinions and viewpoints are regularly rejected out of hand, and I've grown accustomed to "keeping my mouth shut" whenever he comes up with an idea because voicing my own thoughts will only lead to derision and argument. This is especially pronounced when it comes to spending - he's a big spender, while I'm more conservative about money.

He is a fantastic lover, but over the years he's become less and less considerate of my satisfaction, while at the same time seeming less and less interested in my involvement. I guess what I mean to say is, I feel like when we have sex, he doesn't really care whether it's me, someone else, or nobody at all; and if I'm not satisfied, he doesn't care. It's getting to the point where I try to resist feeling aroused at all because I'm fairly sure it will end with me being frustrated, embarrassed, and resentful.. again.

He is endlessly charming, sweet, and funny. This makes him a skillful manipulator of my emotions. I'm sick of being sweet-talked into changing my mind, going along with plans I don't agree with (such as borrowing money from his parents, sisters, or friends of ours), and setting my goals aside for his benefit - but whenever I stand up to him, I suffer through weeks of emotional blackmail and guilt trips!

Whenever we argue, his tactic is this:
- angrily defend himself and his actions ("You say I don't clean, but I loaded the dishwasher last week")
- accuse me of being selfish; mock me; sarcastically imitate my complaints
- swear to do something outlandish or extreme to 'fix' the problem, sometimes with an additional insult ("Well fine, I won't go to bed tonight, instead I'll just clean the entire house, since you obviously can't do it")
- repeat Steps 1, 2, and 3 in various orders and volumes
- sulk, pout, and eventually storm off; sometimes he also punches walls, furniture, or throws things across the room - not as an intimidation method, but simply because he can't control his anger.

I just don't know what to do. I care about him, and I don't want to hurt him, but I feel used.

We have three small children. I don't want to put them through the emotional and psychological havoc of a divorce, but I don't think it's likely at all that my husband will change, and I'm absolutely miserable living like this.

I don't HATE him. Like I said, he's sweet; he'll pick up little things for me at the store, or share things he's found online, or sometimes we'll watch TV or a movie together. But we generally talk about the same stupid things over and over (video games, horror movies, Adult Swim). Things that I'd like to discuss with him, such as books I've been reading, or current writing projects, are invariably met with a blank stare and a sudden topic change to something he's interested in. Sometimes he'll just interrupt me in mid-sentence to start talking about something he finds interesting. This drives me insane, and he's been doing it since we got together. I don't know if he can't hear me (I have a tendency to speak very softly), or if he's intentionally trying to shut me up because I'm just so damn boring, or what. ARGH.

I've thought that more time to ourselves might help things, but.. the few "dates" we've been on have been pretty depressing. He's not entertained unless he's spending money, and I get nervous when I know all our bill money is going towards his idea of a "fun night out". If it doesn't cost money, he's not interested. If any hard work at all is involved, he's not interested. This, from the man who told me he would have walked all the way to my apartment in Atlanta to meet me.

Love is a many-splendored thing, indeed, but when it dies, it gets ugly real fast.

What do I do?

Am I being selfish or petty to ask him to help me?

How can I talk to him about this, and actually effect some change? The last time we 'spoke' was in October, around Halloween, and I told him that I couldn't carry the burden of this household by myself anymore. He didn't volunteer to do anything, or apologize. I said, at the very least, it would be nice if he'd cook me dinner once in a while. I asked if it would be okay with him if I set aside certain nights of the week as "Daddy nights", where he would cook dinner for the kids and make us a dinner later on, and he said okay. I put together a schedule.. I tried to get input from him, but he was unresponsive.. and he never cooked a thing. I couldn't bring myself to remind him - the schedule was in an obvious place, he knew where it was, and I'd done everything else up to that point. I suspect if I had reminded him, he would've asked me to cook it for him!

I don't like feeling like I should ask whether or not he loves me. He's not acting like he cares about me anymore, and it hurts. I don't like being angry with him! My love for him is not conditional on his helping me, but it would be a great comfort and relief to know that I have a partner, instead of another person relying on me to take care of them. I am not his mom, and I'm sick of being treated like I am, and I'm saddened that he would treat me this way.

So, again.. what do I do?

[Burke]

I'm not trying to make this ridiculously long (ha! epic fail on my part, right?), but, um, I was just having a look at the stickied "Stages of a Marriage/LTR" post in this forum, and this is where I am: Stage 3.

"Now is the time when many people face a fork in the marital road. They don’t want to go on this way. Three choices become apparent. Convinced they’ve tried everything, some people give up. They tell themselves they’ve fallen out of love or married the wrong person. Divorce seems like the only logical solution. Other people resign themselves to the status quo and decide to lead separate lives. Ultimately, they live unhappily ever after. But there are others who decide that it’s time to end the cold war and begin to investigate healthier and more satisfying ways of interacting. Although the latter option requires a major leap of faith, those who take it are the fortunate ones because the best of marriage is yet to come."

I'm not willing to "lead a separate life" while still being married to him; that sounds incredibly painful. I'd rather leave him altogether. I know that sounds awfully nihilistic, but I don't think it's very likely that he'd choose hard work, learning new skills, and trying to interact over.. well.. continuing to do nothing.

I've been investigating new methods of communication, but I know I'd have a hard time getting him to go along with it. He's leery of anything that even remotely resembles 'therapy' or a 'program', and most of the methods I've found are kind of ritualized that way. And I'm not at all sure that telling him "if you can't learn to do this, then I'm going to leave you" would be any help. And isn't that some kind of emotional blackmail or threatening or otherwise cheap and low-down thing to do?

I have no idea what stage he's at - he doesn't talk to me, and whenever I try to talk to him about relationship stuff, which isn't often, he does this whole heavy-sigh-change-the-topic thing that gives me the sense that he really doesn't want to talk about anything serious.

Lastly, I should admit, if it isn't already obvious, that I'm a big pain in the butt myself. I tend to be overly critical, I'm constantly stressed, and I get annoyed with him for stupid little things. I am not an angel, and I'm not trying to paint a black-and-white picture of our relationship, i.e., he's the bad guy and I'm perfect. Not by a long shot. I'm quite a mess myself and I'm grateful to him for putting up with my random mood swings and bull puckey. However, I think my own state of mind would improve if I felt that he was there to support me, instead of feeling like he's consciously trying to undermine me.

[DarkAzrael]

Well some guys will never do any housework. Most guys however are happy to help when asked the right way. Most of the time they way women ask for help is very nagging and demeaning.

You mention that you told him you can't carry the burden on your own anymore. That in itself implies that he isn't contributing anything and will put him into defensive mode immediately and make him uncooperative.

Men respond well to praise, not being nagged and demeaned.

Try phrasing things differently. Instead of complaining that he doesn't take the trash out ask him for help. Tell him it's too heavy and you need his big muscles. Squeeze his biceps and smile. Use your cute pouty face.

Make him feel appreciated for everything he does. Men general work year after year at thankless jobs dealing with a ton of stress silently and feel completely taken for granted. You mentioning having to help financially now just emasculates him as well as making him feel as if none of his previous effort was appreciated.

Instead of nagging when he doesn't do something with the baby praise him every time he does do something. Make sure it is very clear how happy it makes you and how thankful you are for it.

Usually praising for the positive will cause him to do more of what you want and be happy to do something. The trick is making him feel needed, wanted, and appreciated. Yeah, we have feelings too.

Sex is also a positive motivator. You want him to focus more on your needs and wants and less on video games.... then take his attention from them. You're a woman, can't you figure out SOMETHING he would rather do instead? SOMETHING that would make him feel loved, masculine, appreciated, needed... SOMETHING that might rekindle a bond between you?

Finally figure out how he shows love and how he needs it to be shown. Some guys show love by doing things for you, some by buying presents, some by physical touch, some by praising you, etc. If you know what he needs to feel loved and secure you can give him that and gently guide him to do the same for you....

Oh and excuse any typos, bad grammar, or a little incoherency, it's 7am here in Ohio and I haven't been to bed yet....

[Burke]

Hi Az,

I appreciate your response, but I respectfully disagree with your suggested methods.

Try phrasing things differently. Instead of complaining that he doesn't take the trash out ask him for help. Tell him it's too heavy and you need his big muscles. Squeeze his biceps and smile. Use your cute pouty face.

Try phrasing things differently - okay. I've done that. I did that the first two years we were married. I've progressed from asking nicely, to begging, to pleading, to demanding, and finally just resentfully doing it on my own while he continues to do nothing.

I'm not going to demean myself by using any "cute pouty face" or feigning weakness to manipulate him into helping me. This is his house too. He should be taking care of it. I didn't marry him so I could clean up after him. Besides, he would know I was trying to appeal to his inner Macho Man, and he'd find it just as demeaning as I would.

Men general work year after year at thankless jobs dealing with a ton of stress silently and feel completely taken for granted. You mentioning having to help financially now just emasculates him as well as making him feel as if none of his previous effort was appreciated.

Men generally work year after year, etc. - and women don't? What have I been doing the past six years of my life? Is taking care of him and his household NOT a job? What's the female variant of "emasculating" - "emovulating"?!

I thanked him every single day for working, when he had a job. I made sure to tell him every day how much I appreciated all the hell he put up with just to make sure we had food on our table. Of course, he doesn't remember any of that now, and he hasn't once thanked me for the work I'm doing to take care of our family.

I'm not emasculating him by paying the bills. If anything, he's emasculating himself. He has the capacity to find a job, if he wants one. I don't resent working - in fact, I enjoy it - but having to try to fit a part-time or full-time work schedule in ALONG WITH everything else is simply too much. I wouldn't ask him to do it - so why does he expect me to?

You are right about one thing - he does feel as if none of his previous effort was appreciated. I don't understand how my issues with his current participation around the house has anything to do with his past ability to provide for his family, and I've stressed to him on many occasions that I'm very grateful for the fact that he was working, you're right, at thankless jobs for a generally pitiful wage. I did the same routine myself. I'm doing the same right now.

At least when he was slaving away for ten to fourteen hours a day at a job, he had the luxury of coming home to a hot meal, a clean house, and somebody else tending the children. I'm spending an average of eighteen hours a day "working" - watching kids and writing - while earning less than part-time wages, and cooking, and cleaning. Again, this isn't something I would ask him (or anyone else) to do, yet it's silently expected of me. Does that strike you as the least bit unfair? Do you still think I ought to be massaging his ego and batting my eyelashes?

Instead of nagging when he doesn't do something with the baby praise him every time he does do something. Make sure it is very clear how happy it makes you and how thankful you are for it.

Usually praising for the positive will cause him to do more of what you want and be happy to do something. The trick is making him feel needed, wanted, and appreciated. Yeah, we have feelings too.

I didn't mention this in my original post, but I DO thank him when he helps. He loves his kids and he enjoys playing with them. I make sure to tell him how much that means to me, and how important it is to them, too. The problem is, no matter how much I praise him, most of the time when I say "Honey, would you mind watching the kids for half an hour so I can take a shower?" his response is "Can it wait?" or "Oh man" or "(heavy sigh) Yeah, I guess so.. I wasn't doing anything important" (in a sarcastic tone).

I don't expect him to be perfect. But responding like this makes me feel like I'm asking some huge favor of him. I let him sleep until noon in the hopes that it will make him more disposed towards doing favors for me, but whenever I ask him to give me some time to myself, I'm met with resistance. To me, this says that my desires and needs are not important to him - not even when they're the very basic needs for personal hygiene, food, or sleep.

Sex is also a positive motivator. You want him to focus more on your needs and wants and less on video games.... then take his attention from them. You're a woman, can't you figure out SOMETHING he would rather do instead? SOMETHING that would make him feel loved, masculine, appreciated, needed... SOMETHING that might rekindle a bond between you?

Did you miss the part about that in my original post? I'm pretty sure, when we do have sex, he feels masculine. Good for him. My needs aren't being met, but obviously that's not of much importance, right?

Also, I refuse to manipulate him with sex. Sex isn't a tool. I don't withhold it when I'm angry, and I don't grant it more when I want something. Right now, I'm not terribly interested in it, because it's become unsatisfying.. but I'm not withholding it because I'm mad at him; I'm withholding because I don't think he's attracted enough to me anymore to want to make sure I'm satisfied. The honeymoon is over. I've had three kids, I'm insecure about my body, and he's only making it worse by acting in a selfish manner.

And, just FYI, I've tried this. It didn't work. Humiliating for both of us, as he was more interested in video games, and I wanted to crawl under a rock and hide. Apparently I am less sexy than a ten-man raid on Onyxia. So, not going to try that again.

Finally figure out how he shows love and how he needs it to be shown. Some guys show love by doing things for you, some by buying presents, some by physical touch, some by praising you, etc. If you know what he needs to feel loved and secure you can give him that and gently guide him to do the same for you....

He buys me food. That's it.

I don't have a license, and he resists watching the kids, so I have a very difficult time leaving the house. This, plus the fact that he has a tendency to spend whatever money we have within three days of our receiving it, makes it difficult for me to buy him things.

I'm sorry to be so difficult, and I'm sorry for being argumentative. Your answers might apply to another man, or another woman, but you suggest using typical woman head-games to solve problems.. and manipulation of his desires and ego doesn't work, and I find it demeaning. And so does he.

Is it really so terrible of me to ask him to step up and take some responsibility for this family he helped create?

I've pampered and spoiled him for six years, done everything short of going to work in his place - I really think he needs to recognize that it's high time I earned some down time.

[shheadz]

I feel really bad for you. You sound like a charming, hardworking, intelligent woman, and you've realized too late that you're married to an over grown child. DarkAzrael is right that no man likes a nagging wife/gf, but you shouldn't have to butter him up day after day to get the damn dishes done. That's more work than just doing the chores yourself!

To me he sounds like a big mamma's boy. What's his family like? Do the men sit around watching the game on TV while the women do all the cooking and cleaning? If that's the case he's unlikely to change in a satisfactory manner. His ways are deep seeded in his upbringing, and you're not going to change that with words.

I respect you for sticking it out this long for the sake of your children, and your marriage, and I understand you have a monumental decision to make. To stay or go? If you stay things will undoubtedly get worse, and your kids will be stuck between two parents that don't love each other. If you go you'll be a single mother raising three kids, working a full time job, and trying to manage a household. More over, your chances of finding a "good man" becomes much more difficult. At some point though you're gonna have to throw up your hands and say, "Well, I did my best."

[MonLob]

World of Warcraft is a terrible, terrible game. I got into the game not too long after it came out, and I played it for a number of years. I never got into the 'raids' but still spent more time playing it than anyone ever should. It is very addictive and part of the appeal is the FALSE sense of satisfaction and accomplishment. There is even an "Achievements" window where you can keep track of everything cool you've done. It's a fun game, but very hard to moderate.

The video games seems to have a big part in this, are you aware of the 'parental controls', where limits can be set on playtime? I understand you are not his mother, and shouldn't have to do this, but he seems to have forgotten that he has other obligations.

He has a wife and kids to love and support, you know if/when/how much he is contributing and if it is enough.

Tell him what you see happening, how it makes you feel, and your solution(s). You can see how much he really cares once hes appraised of the situation. You are supposed to be a team working towards goals (sex=satisfaction, work=money, kids=happy kids), and sounds like he is not contributing, unless grudgingly. As shheadz says, he is acting like an overgrown child. You have every right to be mad about the situation he is keeping you in.

[Gigabitch]

Six months ago your marriage changed completely. He's not used to this yet.

Men get depressed when they aren't "making" something. No, taking care of a home and family does not constitute making something. They need to see something concrete in their monkey hands- even if it's just a paycheck. Yes, I understand the precious value of raising children, but it might be unreasonable for you to expect him to, especially because this is monster YOU created by spoiling and pampering him.

This is the guy you said "I do" to and proceeded to have three kids with. You're now expecting him to evolve into someone else in a few months. This is NOT going to go well and it isn't all because of WoW (not that I'm a fan- I'm an ex- Everquest widow, myself).

Why did you marry such a big baby and what makes you think you can make a good housewife out of him?

Understand that you CAN'T control your own life. Nobody with three little kids can.

[Spency]

Well, having read through your post, I think it shows how desperate you are to try and save what you have, which has to be a positive thing. You wouldnt be asking for advice if you were not wanting to save this.

But, generally, in my opinion, people taht dont want to change, wont or dont, so in terms of housework, etc etc I doubt this will change.

In terms of sex, you can work harder. If he is guessing your not enjoying it or it leaves you feeling un satisfied, then that will hurt him and he will also lose interest.

I was with a girl for three years, 2 years of which she lived with me. She could get a job, she was intelligent etc but she preferred to lay around the house, watch tv, play on Fav
cebook and do nothing. Whilst I was running a business, travelling hundreds of miles a day etc and she couldnt even clean a plate.

I used to come home and started resenting it.

Is this a mjor part of why I ended it, yes, not something I am happy to admit, but I cant be with someone who doesnt help. If you live with someone it should be equal, rarely is, but it should be.

None of us, on here or in the "real" world can tell you what to do, but I think you need to do what is right for you.