Genuinely lost "nice guy" could really use your helpful advice

[freshstart]

Hello all! This is my first post here and I am grateful for the forum.

A bit of background:
I am 25 years old and I am getting ready to graduate from a university that will remain nameless. I've spent the last 5 years out of the dating scene. I've battled obesity, two bouts of clinical depression and a hell of a lot of self-doubt and crises of confidence. Even prior to the weight gain and the struggles with self-identity formation and depression, I developed a bit of a rep as a "nice guy." I had some successes in my earlier years but I haven't been physically intimate with a girl (no sex, no kissing, no hand-holding, nada) in 5 years. In spite of this glaring hole during what is often the most active and available pool of potentials any of us will run into, I have built myself into a self-confident, fairly charismatic, and interesting man. I'm secure with who I am and how I view the world. I've formed lasting, important friendships with people that enrich my life and I've taken up hobbies and activities that enhance my life. What lags so far behind is a semblance of sexual identity.

When I gained weight, I no longer felt attractive or desirable to women. Inside and outside, I felt lost. One of my closest male friends remarked that it's seemed like I am not interested in sex or being physically intimate with a woman in any way. It's true. If I couldn't find myself desirable, why would women find me desirable and why would they want me to engage them physically? I became the male friend that befriended women, some that I would date and others that I would not, and became the male friend giving the advice for how they should interact with males they were interested in, listening to their dating problems, and wondering what I was doing the entire time. I figuratively neutered myself and became the "nice guy" that always watches the girl he's interested in walk away with some other guy.

Needless to say, I'm over that. The problem is that some of the behavioral tendencies still remain. While I've hit the gym to work on my weight (I am still overweight by about 30 pounds), developed good and usable social skills, and realized that I have the ability to make people laugh genuinely hard, I still struggle very much with translating my interest into action.

Four or five months ago, I revealed to a girl that has been one of my best friends for almost a decade that I had feelings for her. After hearing about how nice of a guy I was and how the friendship was too important to risk, we agreed that we were best as friends. Nothing has changed, we are as close as we were before and I am grateful for this and other friendships. But I vowed that I would never let this sort of thing happen again.

Present day:
I have been spending some time with a girl as friends over the last few months. She's someone that I enjoy spending time with - the conversations flow easily, there are shared interests, she's intelligent...you get the drift. She's good people. I'm interested in seeing if there is potentially something more there but I feel like I lack the know-how in how to approach the situation. I've become quite adept at reading a room and reading the body language cues between other people but I can't seem to trust my instincts when these cues affect me. Because of my educational background and interest in human behavior, I've become an excellent source of advice, especially for my female friends seeking a male perspective. I'm credited with advice leading to 3 current serious relationships at the moment. All of this adds to my frustration because I struggle to inform myself in these situations.

My pace with this girl in question has been admittedly deliberate. I met her through a male friend of mine and we hit it off pretty well. In an effort to gauge her reaction, I forced myself to feel comfortable touching her when I am talking to her. I make it a point to casually touch her arm or her thigh lightly when I am emphasizing a point in conversation or trying to get her attention. She doesn't shy away but I don't really notice any "positive" reaction.

I guess I am to a point where I am uncertain of the direction I should go with this girl or any other girls that I am interested in in the future. My gut instinct tells me to be direct but I am concerned that perhaps I am not sufficiently building enough of a foundation and that I could be jumping the gun.

This weekend, I went out for dinner and a night of drinking with the girl I am interested in and three of her close female friends (at her invitation). Today, I was informed that the friends thought I was a good dinner and drinking companion and that they were "very glad" that I was there. I spent most of the evening in very good, fun conversation with all four. My thought is that if my friend isn't interested, there is a real possibility with at least one of her friends with whom I hit it off.

This has been a meandering post but what I am asking is this: How can I leave behind what remains of the "nice guy" tendencies that seem hard to leave behind sometimes? I am in a place where I am done with the bullsh*t games that "nice guys" engage in, the bending over backwards to be liked at all costs, the complete lack of self-respect, and the complete absence of physical intimacy. I am a confident, yet personally inexperienced, man. The inexperience is causing a small loss of confidence within my current situation and I don't want to the advice of these douchey PUAs that litter the web.

What are the major pitfalls I should be aware of in order to avoid being the infamous "close male friend"? With regards to my current situation, I've introduced some small changes in physical contact (it doesn't sound like much but it is a HUGE step for me) and I am uncertain as to how to proceed. Can you offer any insight for this? Finally, if this is a situation where this friend is simply just a friend, how should I approach the possibility of getting to know/date one of her friends from last night? My current interest is someone that I would remain friends with if there was nothing further in the cards for now.

Any and all insights are appreciated. I look forward to being able to reach out and help other members of this forum. If there are any points of clarification needed, please let me know.

[IndiReloaded]

Hi. There used to be several really good threads about avoiding the 'friend zone' on here. Did you try a search of the forum archives?

But basically, you need to avoid letting a girl use you as her emotional tampon without getting anything in return I.e. romantic affection leading to sex. As she becomes more comfortable, you have to up the physical ante. If you get rejected, then she loses your emotional support. That's really how it works, in summary.

[dewilliams2]

^^^thats basically it but at the same time...don't stop being a nice guy. Women like nice guys...just be a nice guy and get in her pants...thats all your really missing out on....your doin everything else just fine...the simple part is the one your stumbling on...don't overthink...and you are overthinking....just go with whatever feels right.

Worst you will hear is no and thats okay cause I guarantee you that there are plenty of women to chose from and your bound to find one your attracted to to who is also attracted to you.

Relax and just go with the flow.

[MVPlaya]

I make it a point to casually touch her arm or her thigh lightly when I am emphasizing a point in conversation or trying to get her attention. She doesn't shy away but I don't really notice any "positive" reaction.

First off, good job on the physical contact. Its unnatural to some, you have to learn it, its very important.

Secondly, you have your answer right there: "I don't really notice any "positive" reaction." When a girl does that, it usually means she is comfortable with you, but not attracted to you. So she doesn't want to offend you by pulling away her hand, but she's not attracted enough to want to escalate it either. Basically, she's being a nice girl.

The situation could, of course, be more complex and there could be things I"m not seeing, but my gut tells me that most likely, this girl is not interested in you romantically.

This has been a meandering post but what I am asking is this: How can I leave behind what remains of the "nice guy" tendencies that seem hard to leave behind sometimes? I am in a place where I am done with the bullsh*t games that "nice guys" engage in, the bending over backwards to be liked at all costs, the complete lack of self-respect, and the complete absence of physical intimacy. I am a confident, yet personally inexperienced, man. The inexperience is causing a small loss of confidence within my current situation and I don't want to the advice of these douchey PUAs that litter the web.

Usually "inexperienced" and "nice guy" go hand in hand. Its because nice guys are too afraid to step on others toes, too concerned with not offending others, and consistently avoid conflicts that they duck all the experiences in life that "bad boys" had. Its not so much that a nice guy is necessarily unattractive to women, its just that nice guys are quite frequently inexperienced and there is no strong 'core' to these people, so to speak. Their behaviors are not expressions of who they are or want, they are expressions of what they are afraid to do: admit they like someone, show interest, be rejected, be vulnerable. In this way, women are not attracted to nice guys - and nice guys think its some cruel irony that the universe prefers 'bad boys' - when the fact of the matter is that their behavior has some fundamental problems that they aren't seeing.

The solution is simple, however, you need to build experiences. You need to go out and and be vulnerable, hit on women, and experience conflicts without trying to duck away from them. You need to understand what are and aren't your limits, rather than never test the bounds and limit yourself by what you think is the best behavior. You are avoiding the largest pitfalls of being a nice guy, the bending over backwards - etc., but the problem with nice guys isn't that they have traits that women dislike, its that they lack traits that women like. You need to build new traits that are attractive to women. You are already doing that by working out, and thats great (by the way, losing 30 pounds makes a huge difference in how women respond to you, even if you are doing a lot of things right, its much harder being overweight - not impossible, but harder - so losing that weight will assist you in your goals, stay with it).

The fact of the matter is that people are attracted to people in the states that they want to be in. A girl wants to be happy, she is attracted to joyful guys. A girl wants excitement, she is attracted to exciting guys. There is something each of these men has to offer, emotionally, for the woman. Whether they end up delivering on that or not is another story, but there is something they are selling. What are you selling? Making people laugh is a great thing and it will help you, but are you sharing a moment that is funny between you and the girl, or are you merely entertaining her? If its the latter, you are actually hurting your chances as a romantic interest - you'll be great at making friends, but you won't build attraction.

I would strongly recommend you read some PUA material. I agree that PUA's are generally douchy guys who seem to have learned to socialize by reading a marketing textbook, but there are some very correct observations they make about how you should interact with women. They recognize the common errors that get you disqualified, and they recognize the common methods that get you noticed and get you attraction. Do not mimick the PUAs or try to become a clone of some sort, but learn from them, they do have something valuable to add, especially if you lack experience.

Now, some points of advice:

1) Always go on the assumption that women are attracted to you. You should assume that your advances are / will be welcome, you should assume that they enjoy your company, and you should assume that they want you - now whether or not they actually do, confidence is attractive to women and a girl who might not be that attracted to you will take note of your energy, and that will attract her. So exude these 'positive vibes.' This does not mean you should be arrogant - just that you are flirty and desirable.

2) Be bold. Boldness is not necessarily the best course of action, but you need to practice being bold so that you can be bold when the situation calls for it. Despite no longer making the big mistakes nice guys have, you are now making the small mistakes. You say you know a girl that you have gone out with for a long time and you are still unsure of your status with her. You are pussyfooting. Women aren't attracted to that. Its not a case of 'does this girl like me / doesn't she like me, oh she does? I should make a move then.' You move slowly, then whether or not she liked you, you will lose her. Make the move before you're sure, don't come on too strong, but make your interests clear - after you've gotten to know her, it should be obvious you're not gunning for friendship - if you leave it ambiguous, she won't make the move (usually, at least - there are 'rare' exceptions) and take the safe route: act like you are her friend, and in the process, it becomes self fulfilling. You were too scared to make a move, so you acted like a friend, she wasn't willing to risk her status, so she responded as a friend, and in the process, you became friends.

Don't do that.