Girlfriend no longer interested in sex. At my wit's end.

[Incognito]

She spent most of the conversation very upset, but in a sad sort of way. (Later, she would tell me I need to find somewhere else to sleep tonight, but that comes later.) She told me that despite how much she has had on her plate over the months, she has always given me whatever "she has left" at the expense of what she "needs to do for herself." The message being that between me and the rest of her life there's nothing left for her in terms of personal space. I cannot even render into words the cosmic pain I felt over hearing that she gives me "what's left." WHAT THE HELL IS THAT!?!? I am not sure if she meant it the way that it sounded, but to ME it sounded like I was not a big priority in her life, or at least not as big as she is in mine. She's always said that if things were to not work out with us she would "regret it for the rest of her life." Yet I would never, EVER consider giving her what's "left." She gets the best of me, often at the expense of other things in my life, because I have made this relationship my #1 priority.

At a certain point, she changed from sad and angry.

But I'm happy we talked about it.

Alright ftm. This quote is obviously from your post right after the "discussion". Anyway, the "what's left" statement is exactly what she meant, although she probably didn't want to actually tell you. I believe its called a Fueudian slip. I'm glad you picked up on that. As far as the mood change goes, people often change their "position" in an argument if their original one isn't working. She was trying to garner sympathy by looking dejected at first, but because aggressive when that didn't work. I am glad that you actually talked about it. I'm even more glad that you are happy about it. I know what its like to finally say something KNOWING that it was going to rock the boat and that it needed to be said. Its like a weight being lifted off your psyche.

[vashti]

She sounds exhausted. What's she doing with herself that takes up so much of her energy?

[Incognito]

1.May is a really long time. I am going to have to wait. A long long time ago we made a promise to each other that if we came up against really serious problems we would go to counseling before considering ending the relationship. I am going to keep this promise.

2.She's really mad at me...... She says she doesn't feel "safe" around me anymore. Not in a physical sense, but an emotional one. She says she feels attacked and accused (and in a sense she is a little right there............and that she no longer gets the sense from me that she can just be herself and not have to worry about anything. She says that our relationship without the sex is more than enough for her, and that the fact that it's not for me means I must not care about the relationship as much as I've always said that I do. She says it seems like sex is all I care about, and that "there's more to a relationship than sex," as if I am some kind of child.

3.It was a cold, cold night in my house. She barely looked at me. We've agreed to share the bed, but there;'s to be no touching. She's suggested we "put things on hold" until May, since she's not capable of giving me what I want and I'm not capable of shutting up and putting up with how things are. I have a feeling we'll probably end up reaching some kind of reconciliation over the next week or two, but we'll see. I feel awful about how things are between us right now.

4.She told me tonight that she will no longer "allow or expect" me reading to her at night, or helping her with homework, or really doing anything for her. She says it's not fair since she won't be doing for me the things that I want. She also spoke disparagingly about me equating my need for sexual contact with her needs, as though my needs are crude and barbaric. ("I do so much for you and none of it is enough.")

5.She says she "can't" have sex with me. (Unless she has booze. Although now that I've called her out on the booze thing she says I have made it "very uncomfortable" for her to have alcohol around me or away from me.) That she has NO sex drive at all and thus can't even contemplate sex, think of sex, or do anything sexual. When in this state, she says, she cannot tolerate me touching her, or her touching me or giving me any pleasure whatsoever, since doing so would make her "highly uncomfortable." Although she did say she'd be willing to do it if it would "shut me up."


6.She says that me complaining about the lack of sex is unfair. "It's like if you were bald and I tormented you over not being able to grow hair." This is what she said. Maybe she has a point

7. I have waited for over a year for this to resolve. She says it's not long enough, but believe me, it's plenty long. I am frustrated at her not because of the sex drive, but because she hasn't OWNED IT.

Sorry for reposting that much text, but I felt a need to address many of those points specifically. And here we go...

1.Its good that you'll wait that long, but more than likely she will use that time to figure out a way to get out of going. I applaud you effort to stick to the promise you made, but there again it looks one sided because she only agreed to going after MUCH discussion and pressure. Not to mention that she disregarded the promise that you two made rather quickly.

2.She's mad? She doesn't feel safe? Boo hoo. She's just trying to spout out anything she can to get you to drop this and go back to the status quo. Just like I said earlier she's going for different "positions" to get her way. By being mad, but playing the "hurt" role at the same time she is simply trying to use multiple strategies to get what she wants. Its like an emotional chess game. I found the red highlighted portion especially disgusting, but revealing. Obviously a relationship lacking sex is what she wants because she gets everything else she wants anyway. When she tries to question your committment to the relationship because you want sex my blood pressure went up. I hope you're not buying any of that. She then went on to say that "sex is all you care about" and "there is more to a relationship than sex". Well she FAILS to acknoweledge that sometimes things are defined by what they lack, especially when something important is lacking/missing. A man without hair is bald. His LACK of hair defines HIM, regardless of what the rest of him is like. If a car has a flat tire it is often defined by that ONE characteristic, because the tires are one of the most vital parts. Therefore a relationship without sex can be and often is defined by that one lacking characteristic. I know mine is. Also so far she's played another "position". That makes three so far. First it was angry, and hurt. Now she's trying to make you look like the selfish one, so I'll call that a reversal. Also her saying that she feels that she cannot be herself and not have to worry about anything is the same as her saying that she feels like she can't enjoy everything she likes about the relationship while ignoring your needs anymore. Thats a good thing in my book.

3.Wow. Putting thigs on "hold"? You're already not having sex, is she moving out? You shouldn't feel awful, because that is what she wants. If you feel awful you eventually will cave because feeling awful means that you somehow feel guilty, which you shouldn't.

4.Fourth position played, guilt. Now she's outright trying to make you feel guilty by not wanting you to do anything nice for her. She knows that you are a nice guy and enjoy doing some things for her, so saying that she doesn't want any of the nice things done that you noramlly do is just an attempt to hurt you further. I am beginning to think that she is a sociopath, although I won't jump right out and accuse her of that.

5.Wow again. Another reversal by her. She's trying to make it seem that you take advantage of her when she is drunk, and therefore needs to "be careful" when she's drinking around you. She also covered all her bases in the blue highlighted portion. No sex, no contemplation of sex, no touching, and no pleasuring you in any way. All because it would make her highly uncomfortable (this statement is an attempt to state that there will be no sex, but to try to make you sympathetic by saying that it will make her highly uncomfortable).

6.There is a very plain, and sort of funny way to respond to that analogy. Bald men wear toupees, get hair folicle relocation surgery, and use a host of other products to remedy that problem. The ones who ACTUALLY WANT TO FIX IT anyway. That is the key here. She doesn't want to fix this problem, and would be just as happy if your cock fell off.

7. She says its not long enough? Chances are that seven years from now still wouldn't be long enough. Even if she does "own it", she may never try to fix it. Some people think that problems fix themselves after they've been swept under the carpet for a while. Others don't see problems as problems because they themselves aren't negatively affected. Somehow she has managed to have both viewpoints.

Wait until May if you wish, but I doubt it will change anything. Stick to your guns about this, although doing so will make that wait (until May) seem hellishly long. Also make sure that you BOTH agree on the counselor that you go to. Some counselors are bias, and she may be using her time to find one who will take her side when you get in there. If you find out that she did do that I'd brand her a sociopath and leave her immediately.

[Incognito]

In my opinion you sound like a complete, pathetic suck-up. The way you try to justify yourself and whine about the situation.... you treat her like a queen, but she is only your girlfriend. She's not even your wife. This is something you need to realize. You're not her indentured servant or her foot massaging peasant, god damnit. Furthermore, you're a man; an independent, 27 year old man. Where's your dignity? Do you have any at all?

Locate your foot. Hold it up. This is the tool you need to learn how to use. You need to stamp it down firmly and stand your ground. You want sex, and you'll get sex, other wise she's not getting a god damn thing from you, and you'll be kicking her ass to the curb with all her belongings, while you invite someone over who *will* sit on your dick and enjoy it.
Now it doesn't have to be quite like that, but you need to grow and show a pair. Start doing things your way. Stop making her life so easy. You're practically wiping her ass for her. If I were you, I'd start walking around the house naked, and leaving messes here and there. I'd stop giving her massages, and I'd read to myself at night. If she keeps you up, go to sleep on the couch, or shit, make her go sleep on the couch! Start ignoring her. Play video games, watch TV. Hell, watch porn. Jack off to it and leave an obvious stain somewhere... like her pillow. Leave porn sites up on the computer for her to find. Start talking about how hot people are on TV. Masturbate at night while she's trying to sleep. Make sure you moan extra loud and ruffle the sheets while you choke your chicken.

Wow! I laughed my ass off when I read this. I wasn't laughing out of some sort of disrespect for doppelgaenger, but because I genuinely thought it was funny. Unfortunately I totally disagree with the second paragraph, although I thought it was absolutely hilarious. Those are all things an immature male would do. They DO prove the same point, but in a far less dignified and mature way. I'll also add that the "complete pathetic suck up" comment is also indicative of an immature person who insults someone because he doesn't understand their viewpoint.

[ftm]

Wow guys. There have been a lot of quality responses here and I am going to try to get to all of them. It may require two posts. Here we go:

You've endured little sex in the last year or so, May isn't too far off if you care about this girl.

Find something to do in order to take out your frustration. Go to the gym, take up a sport, and more importantly... spend time with each other.

Take her out for dates, dinners, outings, with no talk nor expectation of sex. Put it out of your mind and cherish each others company... or you won't make May.

Been there, done that. I have tried that stuff and all it's done is kept us from fighting about it. But it hasn't changed matters. It just reduces the pressure. I am through with those tactics

I never wanted to cheat on my ex girlfriend and she knew that. However, if it continued going the way it had, I probably would have. It sounds like your girlfriend does have some issues on her end (as noted by years of therapy) but if she doesn't want to do anything about it, what can you do? You are her crutch. You will always be there to keep her propped up when she falls. I think what you provide, any girl would want in a marriage. Constant continual devotion. You are a great guy and I commend you for fighting for everything you believe in.

Thanks man. I loved your response and valued your story of your own failed relationship. Sometimes I wonder what would happen in the long run if things didn't work out and I left. Would she come to regret how things had gone down and come back to me a changed person? Or, would she simply color the past with what she wants to see and paint me an asshole?

I am a devoted guy. Loyal as a dog. Sometimes I wonder if one can be too devoted, too loyal.

You are recommending solutions for the problems in your relationship and she is rolling her eyes and getting defensive. Sad turns to angry. It sounds like me to a tee. You are in something that isn't going right, but you don't want to take responsibility for it. It's the sign of a child. She needs to be educated on it if she ever hopes to be happy in life. I'm sure she loves you and I'm sure she is attracted to you, she just doesn't know what is going on or what she is doing. She lacks total self awareness.

I also just read the part where she says she has no control over it. It's a cop out and it's trying to absolve herself of her responsibility in this. You can't make her do something she doesn't want to do but she isn't even keeping her mind open. It's a defeatist attitude because while you may not have control over how you feel, you do have control over what you do and what you can do. It's stubborn, immature, and scary in my opinion.

Yes. She has given herself up to the mysterious whims of her body and has chosen not to fight it. I don't know what she is afraid of. I have suggested literally dozens of different things for us to try to fix this and she hasn't gone for a single one of them because they have all made her "uncomfortable." Just even thinking about us going to therapy together makes me want to do a little dance or something, because it'll be the first thing she's done towards fixing this that I CAN ACTUALLY SEE. Actually, there was one other thing. Maybe 8 months ago or so we bought some books on the topic and read them. One of them had a whole chapter about the male viewpoint and how they view sex. I read it before hand, and was sure that once she read it she'd finally understand why I was in so much pain. She read through it and never whispered a word to me about it. I think she was hoping the books would reinforce her "wait and see" attitude, and when neither of them did, she just disregarded them.

Also the fact that she is being dishonest about how she feels because she is afraid of losing you and what you provide is probably is what is keeping this going the way it is.

What exactly do you mean about being "dishonest"?

I can't believe she has you thinking you're a selfish bastard.

I'd love to hear what her therapist would have to say about this.

It's not that I think I am a selfish bastard. I think I am perfectly in the right over how I am feeling and what I have done thus far (though I admit that I have not always handled the issue in the optimal way). What I was saying was that if this makes me a selfish bastard in the eyes of some, I don't care to change myself, and am willing to wear the title of "selfish bastard" in the name of having things the way I want to have them.

Her therapist has only heard her side of things, so I'm not sure how much his opinion matters on this issue in the long run.

Wellbutrin was associated with 22% of SD but is now down to 7% after recent findings, it sounds like she may be suffering from a chemical sex drive problem, cant for the life of me remember the name of it but bassicly judgeing on what you said about past sex amounts, it is a possiblity, you said at the start she had a high sex drive this can sometimes be due to a chemical imbalance which normally results after a while with the opposite, a dead sex drive and in mosts cases increased stress and anger which dosnt usally help the problem. That being said I could be completely wrong but in quite a few cases really "horny" females do tend to have this imbalance and then completely lose all there "horny".
Also is she eating healthy and what is her exercise like? Also is she taking any anti-sickness pills at all? like procleperazine ect

She takes Nexium every day. Has for years, over nearly the entire course of the sexually active period of her life.

She doesn't have the most healthy diet in the world, but she eats a hell of a lot better than the majority of Americans. As for exercise, she doesn't get much outside of what one gets from living in a city without a car. At the end of the day there's plenty of walking done, but she doesn't "work out." She was working out regularly for some weeks a while back but fell out of the habit when school kicked into high gear. She was going out running with me for a while, but she lost enthusiasm for it. She's planning on starting to met with a personal trainer, but I'm going to only believe that when I see it.

She has hypothesized that when she gets her weight back down her sex drive will kick back in. (She's was a little slimmer when we first met, and has some pretty significant issues with her body in general. But what woman in today's society doesn't?)

In my opinion you sound like a complete, pathetic suck-up. The way you try to justify yourself and whine about the situation.... you treat her like a queen, but she is only your girlfriend. She's not even your wife. This is something you need to realize. You're not her indentured servant or her foot massaging peasant, god damnit. Furthermore, you're a man; an independent, 27 year old man. Where's your dignity? Do you have any at all?

I have plenty of dignity. I am not one to withhold affection or displays of my devotion to someone simply in the name of getting the behavior that I want. It's the exact kind of passive aggressive crap that people have tried on me in the past. i didn't enjoy it, and it didn't work for them. I'm not going to stoop to their level.

Locate your foot. Hold it up. This is the tool you need to learn how to use. You need to stamp it down firmly and stand your ground. You want sex, and you'll get sex, other wise she's not getting a god damn thing from you, and you'll be kicking her ass to the curb with all her belongings, while you invite someone over who *will* sit on your dick and enjoy it.

Well, actually I'm the one who would have to move out with MY belongings. It's her apartment.

That being said, I am taking a stand. This is me taking a stand. She knows the score, and she probably knows at this point that if the aforementioned counseling doesn't happen in the summer there are going to be serious consequences to our relationship.

Now it doesn't have to be quite like that, but you need to grow and show a pair. Start doing things your way. Stop making her life so easy. You're practically wiping her ass for her. If I were you, I'd start walking around the house naked, and leaving messes here and there. I'd stop giving her massages, and I'd read to myself at night. If she keeps you up, go to sleep on the couch, or shit, make her go sleep on the couch! Start ignoring her. Play video games, watch TV. Hell, watch porn. Jack off to it and leave an obvious stain somewhere... like her pillow. Leave porn sites up on the computer for her to find. Start talking about how hot people are on TV. Masturbate at night while she's trying to sleep. Make sure you moan extra loud and ruffle the sheets while you choke your chicken.

I can assure you, this sort of conduct will not improve our relationship at all!

It's more than fine to treat your woman like a queen, but only if she deserves it. Your girlfriend doesn't deserve it. Reading your posts made me mad at her, and I don't even know who she is.

She deserves it. She's wonderful outside of this issue. She's a great woman, which is why I am with her and why I love her madly, and it's why I treat her like a queen. but, that being said, I need to be treated like a king. She used to do so, and somewhere along the line a lot of it went out the window.

It's only fine to treat your woman like a queen if she treats you like a king. Relationships are meant to be mutual.

See above.

Sorry, but she doesn't know what she is talking about. Sexual dysfunction includes lack of interest (in addition to inability to impotence).

I'll leave this one be for the time being. I don't want to bring up the meds again, but I will over the summer. I've asked her about them enough times that I know once more isn't going to make the difference

I generally agree with everyone else's posts here, so not much to add except this:

The 2-year mark is generally the 'make/break' time for a relationship. Sexual incompatability is a very good reason to move on.

IndiReloaded, thank you for your post. It looks like the 2-year mark is definitely shaping up to be that way for us.

Yes, it sounds like you are good friends, but that doesn't make you good lovers and longterm partners. Did you read the other thread on here about the guy whose wife has told him to 'go find a slut' to have sex with b/c she's just not into him anymore? They have kids and she has refused a clean divorce. He's screwed, in every way but the simple one he wants and deserves.

Welcome to your future^ if you carry on down this path. Try to image how you would counsel a friend going through the same thing as you. Simply put, you should not have to beg/cajole/convince your GF to want sex with you. Its not normal. Time to move on.

Yes, I did read that thread. it was depressive, sobering, scary. I don't want to find myself in that position, which I why I am trying to deal with this now. I agree, it's totally not normal. I realize there are probably some men out there who are okay being in a loving relationship that is not satisfying sexually. It's hard for me to admit that at this time in my life I *need* sex. A lot of it. I'm a physical dude when it comes to affection. I've always been. I realize that when I'm an old geezer my libido will probably give way and I'll be more than content to sit with my partner every night and watch TV until we fall asleep, but I am not that man right now. I can't be. I don't know how to do it. And I don't see any reason to stop being who I am just because my girlfriend can't roll with it

BTW, I dunno what is happening to this generation, but I would find any GF who needs to take antidepressants as a huge Red Flag. I don't care why. If its b/c she has too much on her plate with a BF, grad school, whatever else then maybe she isn't cut out for some of the above?

There are plenty of smart, beautiful successful women who like sex, like men, AND are successful in careers (if that is what you want) without needing drugs to cope. I would encourage you to go find one, asap.

I don't think she *needs* to take antidepressants, but that's another thread altogether.

Right now I can't contemplate being in a relationship with anyone else. I admit that I am guilty, at this point, of having a very active fantasy life involving a variety of other woman in my circle. And frankly it's easy to imagine going to bed with one of them (namely because it would be easier to make that happen than going to bed with my own girlfriend), but I can't fathom being in a relationship with anyone other than who I'm with. This is the one I want to be with. We are compatible on more levels than anyone else I've ever found, and I desperately don't want to lose that.

[IndiReloaded]

Well, you've read your future and frankly, without your GF having some kind of epiphany I don't see how you can avoid either 1. breaking up, or 2. giving up chance of a reasonably satisfying sex life.

I question your compatibility comment, btw. I think you are sorely missing an important part of your relationship and are desperately trying to convince yourself that somehow the rest will make up for it. Perfectly natural, if misguided attitude, btw. You want things to work out, of course. But you need to be realistic and see what IS, not how you'd like things to be.

When I said your GF 'needs' the antidepressants, I was also skeptical she needs them. Few do and this is why its a red flag. There's a strength of character that is missing for those who think they need these kinds of things longterm and don't work towards addressing the issues that make them dependent on them. This will affect other areas of your relationship, in particular things like *solving problems* such as what you are currently experiencing.

I hope this helps. I'm not trying to disrespect your GF, but I think you might be avoiding seeing things for what they really are. At this point, you are not married, you do not owe anything to each other except an honest discussion and decision about what each of you hope to get out of life. The best relationships stem from people who are able to honestly ask for what they need and have a reasonable expectation their partner will support them in this journey.

Good luck.

[Incognito]

Well, you've read your future and frankly, without your GF having some kind of epiphany I don't see how you can avoid either 1. breaking up, or 2. giving up chance of a reasonably satisfying sex life.

I question your compatibility comment, btw. I think you are sorely missing an important part of your relationship and are desperately trying to convince yourself that somehow the rest will make up for it. Perfectly natural, if misguided attitude, btw. You want things to work out, of course. But you need to be realistic and see what IS, not how you'd like things to be.

At this point, you are not married, you do not owe anything to each other except an honest discussion and decision about what each of you hope to get out of life. The best relationships stem from people who are able to honestly ask for what they need and have a reasonable expectation their partner will support them in this journey.

I totally agree. Therapy is a little ways off in the future, but even then I don't think that it will make much difference. No matter how much you two connect on other levels, or how great of a woman she is on other levels, this is a big part of a relationship that can not be made up for in other areas. What if she was all of the great things that you mentioned, but wanted too much sex? Too much to the point that she had sex with other guys to fill her need? She'd still be great in all those other areas that you mentioned, but somehow I don't think that you'd be willing to gloss over that. The same should be true here.

I think the most important thing that indireloaded said is in the final two sentences. You two AREN'T married, so you can leave if you want to. Honestly, as indireloaded said, she doesn't own you much either. If she chooses to change then great, but I don't see that happening based on what you have written. All you can do is verify that she won't change and then leave. Greener pastures are in your future my friend.

[ftm]

Sorry for reposting that much text, but I felt a need to address many of those points specifically. And here we go...

Incognito, thanks. You have been contributing a lot of thoughtful responses to the thread and have helped out a great deal. I appreciate your detailed responses below and will answer in kind.

1.Its good that you'll wait that long, but more than likely she will use that time to figure out a way to get out of going. I applaud you effort to stick to the promise you made, but there again it looks one sided because she only agreed to going after MUCH discussion and pressure. Not to mention that she disregarded the promise that you two made rather quickly.

Well, I am not sure she disregarded it. We haven't ever really talked "break up" so there hasn't been an opportunity for the promise to go into effect. When she mentioned "putting things on hold" it was the first time in our entire time together than either of us ever mentioned anything close to a breakup. Now she seems convinced that if things don't go my way over the summer then I'm going to leave her. She tried to play angry about it, and I basically refused to address her questions and told her that I am not going to address what I'll do if therapy doesn't work since we haven't even done it yet. It would be condemning it in advance. If we are going to do that, what's the point in trying? I am not willing to discuss "afterwards" with her because I am right now unwilling to consider anything less than what I want to see happen. (Which is not a lot. I am not asking for much.)

2.She's mad? She doesn't feel safe? Boo hoo. She's just trying to spout out anything she can to get you to drop this and go back to the status quo. Just like I said earlier she's going for different "positions" to get her way. By being mad, but playing the "hurt" role at the same time she is simply trying to use multiple strategies to get what she wants. Its like an emotional chess game. I found the red highlighted portion especially disgusting, but revealing. Obviously a relationship lacking sex is what she wants because she gets everything else she wants anyway. When she tries to question your committment to the relationship because you want sex my blood pressure went up. I hope you're not buying any of that.

HA! No, I am not buying. I know exactly how much I care about this relationship, and it's more than I could ever put into words for her to understand. I don't think it's a relationship lacking sex that she wants -- It's one lacking expectations on her. She doesn't want to be in the position to fail or let anybody down. She doesn't want me to initiate sex because she feels "uncomfortable," which I think means "guilty." Same for why she doesn't want to try any of the things I have proposed to her. (Among them watching pornography (which almost always works for her), talking about our fantasies (almost always works), or, my favorite, just STARTING to get amorous even if she isn't quite in the mood, and then seeing where it leads, which she catagorically refuses to even consider.)

She then went on to say that "sex is all you care about" and "there is more to a relationship than sex". Well she FAILS to acknoweledge that sometimes things are defined by what they lack, especially when something important is lacking/missing. A man without hair is bald. His LACK of hair defines HIM, regardless of what the rest of him is like. If a car has a flat tire it is often defined by that ONE characteristic, because the tires are one of the most vital parts. Therefore a relationship without sex can be and often is defined by that one lacking characteristic. I know mine is. Also so far she's played another "position". That makes three so far. First it was angry, and hurt. Now she's trying to make you look like the selfish one, so I'll call that a reversal. Also her saying that she feels that she cannot be herself and not have to worry about anything is the same as her saying that she feels like she can't enjoy everything she likes about the relationship while ignoring your needs anymore. Thats a good thing in my book.

Let's hope so.

I define our relationship as one lacking sex. She does not. I think that right now sex is just not important to her. (She has repeatedly told me that she just doesn't think about it and that it's the farthest thing from her mind.) She can't come around to the fact that it's important to *me* and therefore, because of this, should also be important to HER, since be are in a relationship and are, I thought, committed to one another.

Until she sees our relationship as "one lacking sex" then I think we aren't going to get very far. That's the thing. She just can't see it.

There's a theme that keeps prevailing over our discussions of late. It stems from something I said early in our relationship that I really never should have said. One night, she wasn't in the mood to have sex (an unusual thing at that time). I was in the mood. Very much so. She may have "helped me out" a bit so that I'd feel good. I don't remember exactly. Anyway, she asked me if I was mad at her for not wanting sex that night, and I said "no." She told me that she worries sometimes that I might feel differently about her if I don't get sex as often. (For the record, I don't get sex often NOW and I still feel the same.) I told her then that we could never have sex again and I would still be able to love her all the same, that the rest of the relationship would be "enough to go on."

It was a stupid thing to say. She never forgot it and brings it up constantly. She says that the fact that I am so adamant about sex now means that I was being dishonest when I said this thing to her. That I was saying things I didn't mean. I've tried to explain to her that I absolutely meant what I said, but that I never imagined that our relationship would actually come to this, and that I had no prior experience of a sexless relationship to draw from. Furthermore, when I said this thing to her, I was thinking in terms of something drastic, like her vagina getting horribly scarred and deformed in a fire or something. Not simply her no longer wanting to make love to me.

I know this is going to come back up in therapy. It's her trump card. Her "get out of jail free."

Funny, when *I* bring up things she said in the past and try to use them against her, she just says she never said them, or that I am misremembering. I don't have the chutzpah to use that one on her, though

3.Wow. Putting thigs on "hold"? You're already not having sex, is she moving out? You shouldn't feel awful, because that is what she wants. If you feel awful you eventually will cave because feeling awful means that you somehow feel guilty, which you shouldn't.

She isn't moving out. If it came to that, *I* would be the one to move out. It's her apartment, not mine. I left my apartment and moved in with her.

As for putting things on hold, that seems to have just been rhetoric on her part. We are back to the way we were before I confronted her. We are sleeping in the same bed, cuddling, the whole nine yards. But none of it is sexual -- That hasn't changed.

I don't think she want me to feel awful specifically. She's just willing to try any tactic that makes me take the pressure off of her and she doesn't care what it takes.

I do feel guilty sometimes. Not today. When I do feel guilty, it's not over feeling sexual. There were times in the past when I wished there was something I could do to just shut off my sex drive completely so it wouldn't be an issue anymore, but that time has passed. Nowadays when I feel awful or guilty, it's only over the prospect of "failing" to fix my relationship. Maybe there's something I should be doing that I haven't done?

4.Fourth position played, guilt. Now she's outright trying to make you feel guilty by not wanting you to do anything nice for her. She knows that you are a nice guy and enjoy doing some things for her, so saying that she doesn't want any of the nice things done that you noramlly do is just an attempt to hurt you further. I am beginning to think that she is a sociopath, although I won't jump right out and accuse her of that.

She's not a sociopath. She's generally a sensitive, loving, caring person. In light of that, it truly boggles my mind that things have come to be like this between us. It doesn't make any sense. In the beginning we would have done practically anything for eachother. We responded to one-another's EVERY need. I remember one night we woke up in the middle of the night at the same time. One of us had had a nightmare and the other just happened to wake up at the same time. We talked about it, and then had mind-blowing sex, and then before going back to sleep she said we should make a promise then and there that if one of us wakes up in the middle of the night and is feeling horny they should wake the other up. This was her idea. We promised, and we continued like that for some time. I promise you that if I were to wake her up NOW for any reason at all other than a fire or a zombie holocaust she would be furious with me. And the thing that really bugs me is that I would still hold true to that promise. Actually, she could wake me for ANY reason, with ANY need and I'd want to be there for her because a freakin' adore her.

5.Wow again. Another reversal by her. She's trying to make it seem that you take advantage of her when she is drunk, and therefore needs to "be careful" when she's drinking around you. She also covered all her bases in the blue highlighted portion. No sex, no contemplation of sex, no touching, and no pleasuring you in any way. All because it would make her highly uncomfortable (this statement is an attempt to state that there will be no sex, but to try to make you sympathetic by saying that it will make her highly uncomfortable).

I don't know if it's that she thought I would try to take advantage of her when she's drunk. Her mother is an alcoholic, so she's very sensitive to the way she uses alcohol because she doesn't want to go down the same road. I think that what I said made her feel like I was saying she was abusing alcohol. (Which I certainly think she was. If you have to drink to get horny, that's a problem.)

I agree about the highly uncomfortable part. It protects her, because now there's no way I can try to initiate or even ask her to please ME because I would be ignoring the fact that she's "uncomfortable," thus painting me an asshole. Then she can say, "But you KNOW I'm not comfortable with it, how could you say that?" etc etc etc.

6.There is a very plain, and sort of funny way to respond to that analogy. Bald men wear toupees, get hair folicle relocation surgery, and use a host of other products to remedy that problem. The ones who ACTUALLY WANT TO FIX IT anyway. That is the key here. She doesn't want to fix this problem, and would be just as happy if your cock fell off.

HAHAHA! Well, I don't think she wants me to be disfigured in any way, although I do think that if I suddenly had no sex drive at all she'd be really relieved, although she hasn't quite put it to me in those terms yet.

If she tries the "bald" approach again, I'll whip out your response. It's a good one. Frankly, I'm pissed I didn't think of that at the time. not that it would have made any significant difference in the discussion.

7. She says its not long enough? Chances are that seven years from now still wouldn't be long enough. Even if she does "own it", she may never try to fix it. Some people think that problems fix themselves after they've been swept under the carpet for a while. Others don't see problems as problems because they themselves aren't negatively affected. Somehow she has managed to have both viewpoints.

Agreed. Look, the way I see it is this. For the past 14 months or more, every time I have brought up the diminished sexual activity she has said, "But I've been [fill in here]." It's always some outside influence she names that's making her tired, keeping her distracted, or otherwise preventing her mood from turning to sex. I feel that even if we were to wait until after grad school, there will ALWAYS be an excuse to put into that blank space. "But I'm working. But I'm sick. But I'm upset about something in my life. But I'm worried about money," and so on and so on. Hell, we've been on vacation before and I've heard, "But I'm just trying to take a break from everything right now." She needs to start making it a priority. I do. And I'd do it for her.

Wait until May if you wish, but I doubt it will change anything. Stick to your guns about this, although doing so will make that wait (until May) seem hellishly long. Also make sure that you BOTH agree on the counselor that you go to. Some counselors are bias, and she may be using her time to find one who will take her side when you get in there. If you find out that she did do that I'd brand her a sociopath and leave her immediately.

I am sticking to my guns. I will not settle for an unhappy life. I actually was going to move back to my home state before I met her. I changed my plans when I fell in love because I thought I would have a happier life with her here. If it gets to the point where I know it's just not going to happen, then my decision to stay should no longer abide.

[ftm]

Alright ftm. This quote is obviously from your post right after the "discussion". Anyway, the "what's left" statement is exactly what she meant, although she probably didn't want to actually tell you. I believe its called a Fueudian slip. I'm glad you picked up on that. As far as the mood change goes, people often change their "position" in an argument if their original one isn't working. She was trying to garner sympathy by looking dejected at first, but because aggressive when that didn't work. I am glad that you actually talked about it. I'm even more glad that you are happy about it. I know what its like to finally say something KNOWING that it was going to rock the boat and that it needed to be said. Its like a weight being lifted off your psyche.

To be fair to her, she said she gives me "what's left" before she gives to "herself." So, if her reckoning of it is to be believed, she gives to everyone else first, me second, and herself last. Although if she's giving me "whatever's left" then that loves zero for her. And what exactly it is that she needs for "herself" has always been rather nebulous and ill-defined. I am not sure she knows, either. Perhaps this feeling of her is a reaction to being unfulfilled herself. Perhaps she's missing something in this relationship and doesn't even realize it. I don't know. Needless to say, if she's not getting personal fulfillment from the things she spends the vast majority of her energies doing then she's got a serious problem with her priorities. Moreover, although she says she gives me "what she has left," those energies reserved for me are used on what she "feels comfortable with," and not on what I have informeed her I need. So, any way you slice it, I don't seem to be a big priority. or maybe not the right kind of priority.

I have talked about it with heer before many many timees, but this last time was more cathartic. I laid things out in a reasoned, unemotional matter, and gave what was essentially an ultimatum. It felt amazing.

She sounds exhausted. What's she doing with herself that takes up so much of her energy?

An internship and graduate school. Right now she doesn't work. School is a pretty heavy workload. I don't care. If she has time to watch sometimes several hours of TV a day, she has time to make love to me. If she has time to go to the movies with me, she has time to make love to me. If she has time, actually, to do ANYTHING AT ALL with me, then she at least has some time and **energy** to make love to me.

Well, you've read your future and frankly, without your GF having some kind of epiphany I don't see how you can avoid either 1. breaking up, or 2. giving up chance of a reasonably satisfying sex life.

Agreed. And, as I mentioned above, I am not going to give up on having a happy life. Happy on all fronts. At this time in my life, expressing myself sexually is a vital component of my happiness.

I question your compatibility comment, btw. I think you are sorely missing an important part of your relationship and are desperately trying to convince yourself that somehow the rest will make up for it. Perfectly natural, if misguided attitude, btw. You want things to work out, of course. But you need to be realistic and see what IS, not how you'd like things to be.

I am trying to be as realistic when as I can. At the same time, not matter what happens, I need to be able to look back and say that I did all I could.

I have been in a position in the past where I thought "the rest would make up for it," and that's not where it is with us. Honestly, I'vve just been waiting for her to come around, and it hasn't been working. I keep thinking that if I just say things a certain way then she'll understand what is really happening and change her ways. But it can never happen that way as long as she believes she *CAN'T* change. I need her to learn that she can.

When I said your GF 'needs' the antidepressants, I was also skeptical she needs them. Few do and this is why its a red flag. There's a strength of character that is missing for those who think they need these kinds of things longterm and don't work towards addressing the issues that make them dependent on them. This will affect other areas of your relationship, in particular things like *solving problems* such as what you are currently experiencing.

She want to get off the meds eventually. Her doctor has made it clear to her that it shouldn't be indefinite. She doesn't want to go off the meds while she's still in graduate school.

I have known MANY people who were on meds for their moods, etc. There were very few who I was convinced really needed it.

I totally agree. Therapy is a little ways off in the future, but even then I don't think that it will make much difference. No matter how much you two connect on other levels, or how great of a woman she is on other levels, this is a big part of a relationship that can not be made up for in other areas. What if she was all of the great things that you mentioned, but wanted too much sex? Too much to the point that she had sex with other guys to fill her need? She'd still be great in all those other areas that you mentioned, but somehow I don't think that you'd be willing to gloss over that. The same should be true here.

Ha! If she were what you describe I would have left a long time ago. But you are right, and no, I'm not willing to gloss over this.

I think the most important thing that indireloaded said is in the final two sentences. You two AREN'T married, so you can leave if you want to. Honestly, as indireloaded said, she doesn't own you much either. If she chooses to change then great, but I don't see that happening based on what you have written. All you can do is verify that she won't change and then leave. Greener pastures are in your future my friend.

I can see how what I have written has made the situation look hopeless. My attitude is if things were great before they can be great again. If she's not willing to change, I'll have to take measures I don't want to take. But, until then, I am going to choose to believe in her, even if she doesn't believe in herself.

[IndiReloaded]

Just remember she has to want to change for HER reasons. Not to make you happy. That will never work, longterm.

Good luck helping her on her path to growth. I hope you get something out of it in exchange, as should happen. At some point in your investment, do not be afraid to ask yourself "hey, what am *I* getting out of all this, again?".

Best,
Indigo

[Incognito]

There's a theme that keeps prevailing over our discussions of late. It stems from something I said early in our relationship that I really never should have said. One night, she wasn't in the mood to have sex (an unusual thing at that time). I was in the mood. Very much so. She may have "helped me out" a bit so that I'd feel good. I don't remember exactly. Anyway, she asked me if I was mad at her for not wanting sex that night, and I said "no." She told me that she worries sometimes that I might feel differently about her if I don't get sex as often. (For the record, I don't get sex often NOW and I still feel the same.) I told her then that we could never have sex again and I would still be able to love her all the same, that the rest of the relationship would be "enough to go on."

It was a stupid thing to say. She never forgot it and brings it up constantly. She says that the fact that I am so adamant about sex now means that I was being dishonest when I said this thing to her. That I was saying things I didn't mean. I've tried to explain to her that I absolutely meant what I said, but that I never imagined that our relationship would actually come to this, and that I had no prior experience of a sexless relationship to draw from. Furthermore, when I said this thing to her, I was thinking in terms of something drastic, like her vagina getting horribly scarred and deformed in a fire or something. Not simply her no longer wanting to make love to me.

I know this is going to come back up in therapy. It's her trump card. Her "get out of jail free."

Yes I'm sure that will be brought up in therapy, but it won't bite you in the ass as much as you think. I say this because regardless of what you said then, now the lack of sex is real and it is hurting you. I'm quite sure a therapist wouldn't condone her withholding sex based solely on something you said one time when the lack of sex for over a year is threatening your relationship. Let her think that she has a trump card and get shot down by the golden bullet of reason when you sit down with a therapist.

I am sorry, but I had to laugh at the highlighted portion. Who's vagina gets scarred during a fire? LOL I understand the point you were trying to make, but it was funny that you said it in such a way. Oh, and the last quote in your post is from me, not indireloaded (although I was agreeing with her).

[SirWagginston]

She deserves it. She's wonderful outside of this issue. She's a great woman, which is why I am with her and why I love her madly, and it's why I treat her like a queen. but, that being said, I need to be treated like a king. She used to do so, and somewhere along the line a lot of it went out the window.

Right, she used to treat you like a king. And she probably used to deserve to be treated like a queen. Things change. Queens don't invalidate the feelings and emotions of their partners.

[ftm]

Yes I'm sure that will be brought up in therapy, but it won't bite you in the ass as much as you think. I say this because regardless of what you said then, now the lack of sex is real and it is hurting you. I'm quite sure a therapist wouldn't condone her withholding sex based solely on something you said one time when the lack of sex for over a year is threatening your relationship. Let her think that she has a trump card and get shot down by the golden bullet of reason when you sit down with a therapist.

Yeah, and I could certainly cherry-pick some things that she has said in the past and hold them up as my own trump cards. But the thing is that this isn't wabout what was said in the past. it's about what is happening now.

I have actually started to feel a little anxious about therapy. I was thinking about it today and about what you said earlier, about making sure *I* pick the therapist because some may have bias. Well, first of all, I wouldn't know how to screen someone for bias. But secondly, I was just imagining us getting stuck with someone who perhaps doesn't fully understand the problem. There are a million ways it could go wrong. I know I shouldn't worry about it at this juncture, but it's hard not to.

I am sorry, but I had to laugh at the highlighted portion. Who's vagina gets scarred during a fire? LOL I understand the point you were trying to make, but it was funny that you said it in such a way. Oh, and the last quote in your post is from me, not indireloaded (although I was agreeing with her).

No worries. I knew it was funny when I wrote it. And it is certainly possible to have one's vagina scarred in a fire. If not that, think of something similarly drastic. The point is that I never dreamed that she'd just stop wanting it. It didn't even cross my mind for one moment.

Oh, and I fixed the quote attribution. Sorry 'bout that.

Just remember she has to want to change for HER reasons. Not to make you happy. That will never work, longterm.

Of course. Naturally. I don't think she has managed to come up with compelling reasons to change. Maybe she needs some.

Good luck helping her on her path to growth. I hope you get something out of it in exchange, as should happen. At some point in your investment, do not be afraid to ask yourself "hey, what am *I* getting out of all this, again?".

Thanks. I'll be sure to ask myself that regularly, particularly over the summer when we are dealing with this in full force.

--

Everyone, I'll be away from this thread for the next week, as the girlfriend and I are going out of town. Hopefully I won't have anything too dramatic to report when I get back. I'll catch up on any thread activity when I return.

Thanks again to all for your sensitivity, blunt honesty and surprising long-windedness.

[doppelgaenger]

Oh Jesus Christ.

You've only been together for two years and you're putting up with a big fat pile of bullshit. You're really rolling in it, son. This is an issue that doesn't need three pages of Bible-length posts.

You don't know how to stand your ground. I'll tell you what, if you did, this would have never been an issue, or you'd have just left her. Really, because you can't seem to stand your ground, you should break up with her and find someone who won't take advantage of your genie-like mentality. Get a fleshlight or something if it would help.

[celebritydiscod]

This is an enormous subject quite obviously, but this is one theory worth putting to the test. Simply put, you are apparently already satisfying the requisits of your genuinely loving affection, so making sex, which is anyway concerned equally with "self" and with gratification, obsolete, for it may be that what perhaps was being experienced as an act of love making is now experienced as merely sex making, and just may be she is this sensitive.
To indicate even that you expect sex is to reduce it to very considerably less than a love act - Sex may have had more of a role in your relationship when it was one of being in emotion only - not yet in actual love(?)
This is only ment as one possibility, but it figures with all that you`ve detailed.
Because ones genuine love is purely a measure of ones selfless affection, it could be that sex is getting unwarranted attention? Added to which, it is quite natural, and normal, that the desire for it should fade as the relationship moves-on.