[News] Obama signs historic healthcare reform into law

[Doc Durian]

Buggering goats and small boys?

[LailaK]

MY truth DOESN'T AGGRESS against my fellow man. Yours... rapes anything and anyone to meet its end.

You might as well go Postal... the same thing, really.

Eh... whatevs. I can't scrounge up as much passion about this as you. I really can't fathom why you're so upset that you'd dub me a rapist. To me you sound like the crazy dude with the beard outside of the courtroom screaming that the world is going to end. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. We pay our taxes. We vote into office those who will push our own personal agendas. That's the way this Democracy thing works. If your agenda is in line with what most Americans believe at the time, you win! If not... boohoo. It happens.

If the president and representatives I voted for help pass a healthcare bill, then it's been a damn good week because politically I've been boohooing for a while. I say tax those rich f**kers. Tax the hell out of them. I really don't think the majority of them have been doing their part to help out society anyway. If that the equivalent of going postal, I happily have that opinion.

I'll never understand the American proclivity to drink our mochachinos and watch the boob tube and ignore that good hard working people in this country can't even afford basic things like GOING TO THE DOCTOR. You wanna be mad about it? Fine. Why don't you tell me what you're doing to fix the system. That's not a smart alecy comment, I'm really curious, Doc, because I think you might come back with a decent answer.

[IndiReloaded]

All votes without activism are wasted votes, particularly in the modern electoral process.

In fact, activism and education are far more important than the vote itself.

I had the opportunity to vote, with numerous legal hurdles, and instead chose to donate in a manner which might educate 3 or more of me to the concepts of true liberty.

In the context of rigged voting machines, brother Governors, multi Zsar-Israeli dual nationality incidents plus the questions of Obama's validity... cold hard cash parted is the strongest and purest action one can take.

We ultimately have to live with our consciences.

I sleep well.

I gave a young Conservative sycophant a chewing out the other night regarding spending on education. I think I embarrassed him a little when I pointed out he had no experience outside of Canada to compare our system to. One thing about being 'inside' the system for long enough is that, if you can keep your integrity, eventually you reach a point where you get to speak your mind and they have to tolerate it. You hope that some of it sticks.

[IndiReloaded]

I say tax those rich f**kers. Tax the hell out of them. I really don't think the majority of them have been doing their part to help out society anyway. If that the equivalent of going postal, I happily have that opinion.

I'll never understand the American proclivity to drink our mochachinos and watch the boob tube and ignore that good hard working people in this country can't even afford basic things like GOING TO THE DOCTOR.

We had this argument already in another thread. But I don't have a problem with paying for socialized healthcare. So long as the dollars are being spent *responsibly*. One problem is that taxes are not directly linked to services. They go into a big pot that is allocated by the party agenda. I would like to see more accountability for where tax dollars go. If my taxes are being raised to pay for healthcare, fine (not really b/c I think there should be another model, but I won't post here). Its not okay if I'm expecting them to pay for healthcare and some fraction is going into homeland security dubious programs, increasing the size of the gov't and other things I didn't ask for.

[MVPlaya]

Ralph Nader helped elect George Bush. i'm still pissed off.

Nader has done some good things in his career but I don't believe I can ever forgive him for that.

You people are both out of your minds. This is the exact damn problem with Democrats, they think they own the votes of liberals. Its as if Democrats have to fight to win over moderates to vote for them instead of Republicans, but Democrats have no obligation whatsoever to reach out to liberals who get turned off from the party.

Even if you want to ignore the fraud of the 2000 election, the only man to blame for Gore's turn out is Gore himself. People have the right to vote for whoever the hell they want. There is not a single Green Party member or voter in the United States who wasn't perfectly aware that by voting for Nader, they were not voting for Gore. They heard all the stupid slogans "A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush," dealt with all the idiotic bullying that Greens are required to vote for Democrats because the DNC somehow owns the voting rights of all people who are left of center, and were fully aware of all consequences.

They made a decision that they had every damn right to. Ralph Nader had every damn right to run for President, and his voters had every damn right to vote for him. If there is someone at fault for not getting those votes from the Greens its the Democratic Party for failing to reach out to them.

I voted for Nader, and I voted Obama in this last election. Obama actually made a real push for reform, like Health Care, which we discuss in this thread, that got me interested in the DNC again. Gore ran a shitty campaign with few promises of reform and was VP under one of the Democratic presidents most hated by Green Party members, etc. If Gore didn't get my vote, its because he didn't earn it. Not because he owned my vote but I failed to give it to him.


You have to fight for your votes. You cannot expect people to give them to you or get mad at others for making their own decisions. Just like Democrats fight for moderates in elections, they need to fight for their own base as well. If they neglect their base, its their fault, and not the base's.

[Doc Durian]

Eh... whatevs. I can't scrounge up as much passion about this as you. I really can't fathom why you're so upset that you'd dub me a rapist. To me you sound like the crazy dude with the beard outside of the courtroom screaming that the world is going to end.

I didn't dub you a rapist, but the policy of raping one's right to self determination which you support. The rest of your comment about insane men with beards also has no merit.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. We pay our taxes. We vote into office those who will push our own personal agendas. That's the way this Democracy thing works. If your agenda is in line with what most Americans believe at the time, you win! If not... boohoo. It happens.

America is no longer a constitutional republic?

Oh shit, there's goes the neighbourhood.

If the president and representatives I voted for help pass a healthcare bill, then it's been a damn good week because politically I've been boohooing for a while. I say tax those rich f**kers. Tax the hell out of them. I really don't think the majority of them have been doing their part to help out society anyway. If that the equivalent of going postal, I happily have that opinion.

The US Government, Federal nor State was ever intended to "help out society". Nor was it intended as a springboard for Majoritarianism or raving mad packs of jealous socialists eying off someone else s life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

I'll never understand the American proclivity to drink our mochachinos and watch the boob tube and ignore that good hard working people in this country can't even afford basic things like GOING TO THE DOCTOR.

It's because misguided advocates like yourself who let the government get its fingers into the health care pie many decades ago.

You wanna be mad about it? Fine. Why don't you tell me what you're doing to fix the system. That's not a smart alecy comment, I'm really curious, Doc, because I think you might come back with a decent answer.

I'm neither mad nor in need of your consent to prospectively become mad as I live my life and you live yours. It is in effect, our lives, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. We have the right to self determination.

Similarly, I have a moral obligation to let the system fix itself through the open and free market. The solution/s can only arise from a market free of government intrusions, taxations, and regulations.

So in order to allow this to happen efficiently and effectively, the solution would be to place the US Federal Government back into its cage and to educate the populace about the nature of the Constitutional Republic they're a part of.

The "end justifies the means" type malarkey has no place in the solution.

[IndiReloaded]

Unless you truly believe that Bush was a better choice than Gore (blah), IMO, you made a bad decision MVP.

I've been around politics much longer than you so I know what I'm about. Unless you can tell me what you achieved with your futile vote, I see your decision as fairly mindless. Principled, yes. Do I agree with your principles? Yes. But you chose to be principled without purpose. You might as well have stood on the top of a building shouting "Bush and Gore BOTH suck", to the same end.

I expected something more intelligent from you.

[Doc Durian]

But you chose to be principled without purpose. You might as well have stood on the top of a building shouting "Bush and Gore BOTH suck", to the same end.

I expected something more intelligent from you.

^^^ and that's what is wrong with modern America.

Principles have degrees of legitimacy dependent on whatever outcome they may or may not induce.

Thanks for reinforcing my point, Indi.

The end never justifies the means.

[Junket]

Similarly, I have a moral obligation to let the system fix itself through the open and free market. The solution/s can only arise from a market free of government intrusions, taxations, and regulations.

Come on now, a free market isn't everything people make it out to be.

We'd all be slaves in no time.

[MVPlaya]

Unless you truly believe that Bush was a better choice than Gore (blah), IMO, you made a bad decision MVP.

I've been around politics much longer than you so I know what I'm about. Unless you can tell me what you achieved with your futile vote, I see your decision as fairly mindless. Principled, yes. Do I agree with your principles? Yes. But you chose to be principled without purpose. You might as well have stood on the top of a building shouting "Bush and Gore BOTH suck", to the same end.

I expected something more intelligent from you.

Yeah first of all, last I checked Gore won California.

Second of all, losing the left has forced the Democratic party to move back to its more liberal roots to win elections, see Health Care reform today.


Rather than giving the DNC this idiotic feeling that they can take the liberal votes for granted and short us on every policy decision as they keep sliding to the center (like under Clinton), they've realized that they need to cater to the base as well, and for that we're getting actual policies we want. like health care reform. So I sleep very easy at night.


If a politican knows he has to do nothing for your vote, he will do nothing for your vote. Make them work for it, and you get something out of it.

[Doc Durian]

Come on now, a free market isn't everything people make it out to be.

We'd all be slaves in no time.

That's just simply not true and earlier American history shows it (aside from the actual slavery trade) People had more freedom, not less.

[MVPlaya]

That's just simply not true and earlier American history shows it (aside from the actual slavery trade).

Hahahahhahahaa. Oh god I can't stop laughing.


You should pick better examples for your arguments.

[Doc Durian]

Yeah first of all, last I checked Gore won California.

Second of all, losing the left has forced the Democratic party to move back to its more liberal roots to win elections, see Health Care reform today.


Rather than giving the DNC this idiotic feeling that they can take the liberal votes for granted and short us on every policy decision, they've realized they need to cater to the base as well instead of their endless slide to center, and for that, we are all getting health care. So I sleep very easy at night.

I'll never pay a red cent to any of it and I'll never pay the fines, either. So I'll sleep even better at night.

[Doc Durian]

Hahahahhahahaa. Oh god I can't stop laughing.


You should pick better examples for your arguments.

Shush, Sparky. Overall freedom was greater despite the horror of slavery which also existed and shouldn't have.

[MVPlaya]

Okay so just checking, overall freedom was greater despite:

Native-Americans forced on death marches
African-Americans forced into slavery
Poor Americans forced into indentured servitude
Women denied the right to vote
Non-whites denied the right to vote
People without property denied the right to vote

Exactly how was freedom greater?