Do nice guys/girls really finish last?

[LailaK]

Since some people are so sensitive about their posts being hijacked I decided to make a post of my own. Yaaaaaaaay! This way I can finish my thoughts without boys calling me names.

Sometimes I like to pretend that I'm an alien from outer space and I think about men and women and how we relate to each other. On the whole, we do a pretty lousy ass job.

At our core, I think everyone just wants to meet that person who will respect them, be kind and understanding toward them, love them, and have sex with them all the time. We all just want to meet someone who is nice and who we are attracted to. So how come neither men, nor women are attracted to "niceness". I've heard men say "Women don't want the nice guy, they want an Alpha." and I've heard/experienced for myself that men don't necessarily like/want/respect a woman who is nice to them and eager to be with them. This is crazy to me but I've seen and lived the evidence that both sides are somewhat correct and yet still very wrong.

Out of frustration women and men have put together all of these silly rules for dating that help you appear more confident and also appear as if you don't care about the person you're trying to pursue. And guess what. They work! I have my own list of rules (that are absolutely ridiculous) but when I use them the guy is more interested in me. I pretend to be aloof, don't give out too much info about myself and they come running back for more. When I abandon my rules the men almost always goes ghost. I've also had guys use PUA rules on me and they used to work until I ended up reading a PUA book myself. Now when a guy hands me a slightly veiled insult in the hopes of making me insecure enough to throw myself at him I know exactly what he's doing and get highly annoyed. I don't think it's as simple as men and women rejecting nice people, but the trend has to come from somewhere, right?

Women don't like "nice" guys
I can only speak from a woman's point of view on this which will eventually lead to a lot of males disregarding everything I have to say. All I can tell you is that from my POV this is true, but it also isn't. Women like a confident guy. Confidence is hot and attractive but for some reason a lot of women mistake douchebaggery as confidence. I have been a culprit of this as well. Eventually, if the woman grows wiser as she grows older she learns the difference and can make better choices. I really hope that I will evolve into one of these women. As for dissing nice guys, I think there is a notion that a nice guy is meek and will do whatever a girl tells him too. I don't think these guys should classify as the nice type. They are pushovers and most women don't find that attractive. Why can't a nice guy be a guy who is a gentleman but knows how to stick up for himself and protect me? That's the guy I want to date!

It's worth mentioning that my current crush is a nice guy. He's big, brawny, hot, confident, smart and NICE. He's like a unicorn. He's so confident and successful that when we first met I wrote him off as "My Type" which in my experience translates into "Total As*hole". I was determined not to like him but as I got to know him I discovered how NICE he was and it made me like him even more than before. He holds doors for me, he walks me to my car at night, and he even told me I was beautiful. He scares the sh*t out of me.

So. All that gobbledy gook to say I don't think it's about niceness being unattractive to women. I think it's more about confidence being the most attractive thing about a man. When confidence is paired with a genuinely nice guy, it can be a killer combination.

Men don't like "nice" women
I don't know what to say. My personal experiences say that this is true, but when I try to think about it logically it can't be. It doesn't make sense. My guy friends are great, but most of them are dating very demanding women. Their girlfriends yell at them and treat them badly in public and they stay FOR YEARS. I have a guy friend who's girlfriend cheated on him repeatedly. One time she slept with his good friend. When she finally dumped him for someone else he told her he loved her and begged for her back. I have another guy friend who's girlfriend has not only cheated in the past, she can't hold her liquor and EVERY time we go out to bars she gets drunk and embarrasses him in public by crying and fighting with him. He's just proposed to her. I have ANOTHER guy friend who's girlfriend is actually pretty nice if you ignore the fact that she threatens to break up with him every couple of months over little, stupid things. He just recently confessed to me that he can see himself marrying her sometime in the future. Am I missing something here?

I'm a non-confrontational person. My dad is a shrink and I was raised to control my emotions. I've always tried my best not to fight with my boyfriends. Every problem can be solved with communication and understanding. At least that's what I used to think. Every last one of my relationships has ended horribly and it's all due to a similar problem. When I don't like something, I talk about it. I'm usually calm and because of this I think that men don't take me seriously. Eventually I get so fed up with not being heard and not feeling respected and I end the relationship. The guys are usually surprised and angry and feel that I haven't given them a chance to fix the problem. I'm usually tired because I feel like I've been trying to work with them to fix the problem for months. Do men only understand that there is a problem when some woman is yelling at them and acting out?

When you put all of this together, it's clear to me that I'm too passive and submissive in my relationships. That in order to make it work for the long run I need to be a raving, screaming, cheating mess. But that doesn't make any sense!

There is something I'm missing. I'm sure that men really do appreciate nice girls over the dramatic ones. It's just not something I see in my day to day life.

Anyway. Those are all of my thoughts on the matter. I'm curious to hear the thoughts of others.

[Applesauce]

LailaK says:

"I can only speak from a woman's point of view on this which will eventually lead to a lot of males disregarding everything I have to say. All I can tell you is that from my POV this is true, but it also isn't. Women like a confident guy. Confidence is hot and attractive but for some reason a lot of women mistake douchebaggery as confidence. I have been a culprit of this as well. Eventually, if the woman grows wiser as she grows older she learns the difference and can make better choices. I really hope that I will evolve into one of these women. As for dissing nice guys, I think there is a notion that a nice guy is meek and will do whatever a girl tells him too. I don't think these guys should classify as the nice type. They are pushovers and most women don't find that attractive. Why can't a nice guy be a guy who is a gentleman but knows how to stick up for himself and protect me? That's the guy I want to date!

It's worth mentioning that my current crush is a nice guy. He's big, brawny, hot, confident, smart and NICE. He's like a unicorn. He's so confident and successful that when we first met I wrote him off as "My Type" which in my experience translates into "Total As*hole". I was determined not to like him but as I got to know him I discovered how NICE he was and it made me like him even more than before. He holds doors for me, he walks me to my car at night, and he even told me I was beautiful. He scares the sh*t out of me."

you spent all that time describing your ideal man and then when you finally meet one, he scares you? lol. Girls.. girls.. girls..

"I don't know what to say. My personal experiences say that this is true, but when I try to think about it logically it can't be. It doesn't make sense. My guy friends are great, but most of them are dating very demanding women. Their girlfriends yell at them and treat them badly in public and they stay FOR YEARS. I have a guy friend who's girlfriend cheated on him repeatedly. One time she slept with his good friend. When she finally dumped him for someone else he told her he loved her and begged for her back. I have another guy friend who's girlfriend has not only cheated in the past, she can't hold her liquor and EVERY time we go out to bars she gets drunk and embarrasses him in public by crying and fighting with him. He's just proposed to her. I have ANOTHER guy friend who's girlfriend is actually pretty nice if you ignore the fact that she threatens to break up with him every couple of months over little, stupid things. He just recently confessed to me that he can see himself marrying her sometime in the future. Am I missing something here?"

those guys just sound desperate. They are willing to tolerate abuse b/c they feel they won't be able to find someone better. I wouldn't use them as examples of guys who don't like nice women.

"I'm a non-confrontational person. My dad is a shrink and I was raised to control my emotions. I've always tried my best not to fight with my boyfriends. Every problem can be solved with communication and understanding. At least that's what I used to think. Every last one of my relationships has ended horribly and it's all due to a similar problem. When I don't like something, I talk about it. I'm usually calm and because of this I think that men don't take me seriously. Eventually I get so fed up with not being heard and not feeling respected and I end the relationship. The guys are usually surprised and angry and feel that I haven't given them a chance to fix the problem. I'm usually tired because I feel like I've been trying to work with them to fix the problem for months. Do men only understand that there is a problem when some woman is yelling at them and acting out?

When you put all of this together, it's clear to me that I'm too passive and submissive in my relationships. That in order to make it work for the long run I need to be a raving, screaming, cheating mess. But that doesn't make any sense!"

no, you have it all wrong. The problem isn't a lack of yelling or screaming for men to take you seriously. The problem is your poor choice in men. Normally there is a period of dating before a couple enter a relationship. If it's taking you until the relationship stage to realize your boyfriend doesn't respect you, then maybe you need to become more observant

[LailaK]

These are not bad points. I know I have bad taste in guys. That is why my current crush scares the crap out of me.

[Mish]

I think the word "nice" gets thrown around a lot, but unfortunately "nice" can mean absolutely anything and is a bad classfier. When people complain or praise those who are "nice" they can be talking about completely different personality types which have very little relevance to one another.

[RockNRoll]

Why can't a nice guy be a guy who is a gentleman but knows how to stick up for himself and protect me? That's the guy I want to date!

Absolutely There are a lot of them, really. Good luck with your current crush.

Here is my POV as a girl. I do like "nice" guys, I dated only good guys in fact, because I am turned off by bad behaviour and all the nice, sincere, decent qualities and actions work like magic. There is also some thought, that is almost sub-conscious. Don't get me wrong, I am not planing to marry a guy once we started dating, I am not in a hurry about it in general. But at a very early stage, when you get to know person, I have some sort of "test" in my head: if everything works out and we do have a long relationship, whether I can see him as a husband and father to my child. I don't expect or plan it to happen at all, just check if (based on a small info I have at that time) I find him good enough. That's why I keep telling on this forum that I like gentlemen
As for guys, I am interested to hear their opinions. My POV: guys like "nice" girls, who seem nice people in general. They also like to be appreciated and respected. Now here is a fine line: guy wants to know that a girl likes him and what he does for her, but he probably doesn't want her to like him too much, that it will bother him. That doesn't leave him space to win her over, too boring. There are many women who do absolutely anything for a guy, but he cares for someone else. I guess guys want to be treated in a decent way as well and to be with a good persona overall, but they need some sort of challenge, game (in a good way), spice, spark, chance to proof himself as a best one,...
Sometimes people consider their date/partner put up with any behaviour, or deny bad behaviour, when they are too much into someone.
It seems there are some things falsely associated with "nice", which we don't like: insecurities, being too calm and boring, not confident, too shy, without any spice, just not interesting. There are other reasons for those qualities.

[RockNRoll]

I think the word "nice" gets thrown around a lot, but unfortunately "nice" can mean absolutely anything and is a bad classfier. When people complain or praise those who are "nice" they can be talking about completely different personality types which have very little relevance to one another.

Exactly