He's got me so confused

[IncognitoSir]

Actually, Astrology is the first religion and is also the basis of all ancient faiths. Please do not criticise something you do not understand.

Astrology, like alchemy, was a superstition that was worthless for its intended purpose but ended up being useful scientifically because its obsessive adherents would gather a lot of valuable astronomical data in order to perform their fortune-telling rituals.
As for the occasional nutjob that takes it seriously modernly, they should perhaps be reminded that astrology is based on a geocentric idea of the universe, so to take astrology seriously, one has to renounce one's belief that the earth revolves around the sun.
Eh, I understand it, I understand it enough to realize it's worthless.

[MaidenMinx]

Astrology, like alchemy, was a superstition that was worthless for its intended purpose but ended up being useful scientifically because its obsessive adherents would gather a lot of valuable astronomical data in order to perform their fortune-telling rituals.
As for the occasional nutjob that takes it seriously modernly, they should perhaps be reminded that astrology is based on a geocentric idea of the universe, so to take astrology seriously, one has to renounce one's belief that the earth revolves around the sun.
Eh, I understand it, I understand it enough to realize it's worthless.

Worthless to you. Astrology has proven it's worth to me.

Obviously in this forum it's too much to ask that differing opinions be respected without being dumped on. Cool. Another thing I have learnt about here.

[IndiReloaded]

No, you believe in its worth. It hasn't proven anything to you. That is the difference between faith and fact. If you want to believe in smurfs, hey, no problem. But as soon as you start telling other people about the awesomeness of smurfs and how believing in smurfs can change their life too... that's when I start to ask for cold, hard data.

If you can explain to me the physical principles of how astrology works, I'd be thrilled. But, since I know you can't (b/c there hasn't been an explanation that has been upheld by scientific principles), I have no problem saying its nothing more than entertainment. I've also come to view religion as a form of entertainment. It keeps people happy and pacified... shrug. But don't call it science and say its proven anything. "Proof" is a very specific term.

BTW, I do think that things are are belief-based can have worth--ref my comment on entertainment. There's a definite worth for that kind of thing in society.

[IndiReloaded]

I am torn between applauding you and lecturing you about how you are being just as narrow minded and judgemental as the people you are 'educating'

What? These people are coming to MY door to proselytize. You're damned right I'm going to do my best to 'educate' them. Its not like I showed up at their church with a box of pamphlets. Tho maybe I should, its only fair. They showed up, uninvited, at my home. Its not my problem they chose the home of a couple of scientists. Too bad for them. Maybe next time I'll just sick my neighbours dog on them?

[MaidenMinx]

No, you believe in its worth. It hasn't proven anything to you. That is the difference between faith and fact. If you want to believe in smurfs, hey, no problem. But as soon as you start telling other people about the awesomeness of smurfs and how believing in smurfs can change their life too... that's when I start to ask for cold, hard data.

If you can explain to me the physical principles of how astrology works, I'd be thrilled. But, since I know you can't (b/c there hasn't been an explanation that has been upheld by scientific principles), I have no problem saying its nothing more than entertainment. I've also come to view religion as a form of entertainment. It keeps people happy and pacified... shrug. But don't call it science and say its proven anything. "Proof" is a very specific term.

BTW, I do think that things are are belief-based can have worth--ref my comment on entertainment. There's a definite worth for that kind of thing in society.

lol! I thoroughly enjoy the fact that you can make me *sigh* with exasperation and then giggle with understanding. You are a very intriguing person Indi, and as much as I frequently disagree with you, I do enjoy the conversations we have.

Now back to sighing.

I am going to choose at this point to not make myself look any more insane than I already do. All I want to say that when it comes to anything 'other worldly', proof is a personal thing. For me, my spirituality is intertwined with my understanding of astrology and much much more.

BUT, I really didn't want to do this all again. I can explain my view point over and over and I know I won't change any ones mind. All I wanted to suggest in this thread that people be a little less judgemental. Yes I did it defensively and that wasn't the greatest way to approach things. I just find out remarkable how many people (Americans) jumped on 2 words out of a whole post. It's not like she mentioned his star sign again, nor did she mention her own (which is a startling omission to anyone that does have an interest in astrology)

One thing I will agree with, astrology is entertaining. I would also like to ask, what is your opinion on things like the Briggs Myer typology and other forms of personality profiling? I find these thoroughly entertaining too.

[MaidenMinx]

What? These people are coming to MY door to proselytize. You're damned right I'm going to do my best to 'educate' them. Its not like I showed up at their church with a box of pamphlets. Tho maybe I should, its only fair. They showed up, uninvited, at my home. Its not my problem they chose the home of a couple of scientists. Too bad for them. Maybe next time I'll just sick my neighbours dog on them?

I will admit I do find the door to door approach rude and horrid. I could never be rude to our local Watch Tower deliverers because so far they have been lovely little old ladies. We usually have a quick discussion about the decay of society.

Ahhhh science. I understand your POV so much more now.

[Wakeup]

Astrology is good, if it's something I want to hear. If it's predicted something I don't want to hear, then i'ts a bunch of bull.

[MaidenMinx]

Astrology is good, if it's something I want to hear. If it's predicted something I don't want to hear, then i'ts a bunch of bull.

LMAO!!! This honestly seems to be the general consensus here in Aus. Also here in Aus people are less inclined to suggest that ones ability to think logically is completely impaired by a belief. From what I can gather, a lot of Americans will not only suggest that but they'll continue to insult you if you disagree. Seems Canada has a better level of tolerance and open mindedness.

[Wakeup]

Probably more about the individual's beliefs and not so much to do with the country itself

[MaidenMinx]

Probably more about the individual's beliefs and not so much to do with the country itself

In most cases I would be inclined to agree as I do try to avoid making gross generalisations. In this case though... well I'll admit I am coming down with a head cold and feeling a little bitchy... yet, I do find that when I make an astrologically based comment anywhere that is frequented by peoples from everywhere, the first negative comment is always from an American and atleast 50% of the rest of the negative comments are American. Having said all that I will never assume that just because someone is American they will not accept astrology.... so I guess I do agree with you after all that. I need more sleep.

[IncognitoSir]

In most cases I would be inclined to agree as I do try to avoid making gross generalisations. In this case though... well I'll admit I am coming down with a head cold and feeling a little bitchy... yet, I do find that when I make an astrologically based comment anywhere that is frequented by peoples from everywhere, the first negative comment is always from an American and atleast 50% of the rest of the negative comments are American. Having said all that I will never assume that just because someone is American they will not accept astrology.... so I guess I do agree with you after all that. I need more sleep.

Have a great night's rest!

[IndiReloaded]

what is your opinion on things like the Briggs Myer typology and other forms of personality profiling? I find these thoroughly entertaining too.

Its a framework for trying to understand personality that is only slightly more complicated than deciding whether someone is boring or not by what flavour ice cream they like. Perhaps somewhat useful for binning populations (and maybe understanding crowd dynamics).

Anyway, I'm sure that some psychology doctoral student someplace has justified their degree by making it even more complex (and meaningless). Eventually, with enough complexity one ends up examining the individual and the whole exercise will have gone full circle and moot, if it hasn't already. Similar to the DSM-V arguments the psych medicos are having... no way that mental disorders have increased >200% since the first version released in the 50s. Few scientists take the field seriously and its their own fault for a lack of standards.

[MaidenMinx]

Its a framework for trying to understand personality that is only slightly more complicated than deciding whether someone is boring or not by what flavour ice cream they like. Perhaps somewhat useful for binning populations (and maybe understanding crowd dynamics).

Anyway, I'm sure that some psychology doctoral student someplace has justified their degree by making it even more complex (and meaningless). Eventually, with enough complexity one ends up examining the individual and the whole exercise will have gone full circle and moot, if it hasn't already. Similar to the DSM-V arguments the psych medicos are having... no way that mental disorders have increased >200% since the first version released in the 50s. Few scientists take the field seriously and its their own fault for a lack of standards.

Interesting. I must admit my tired brain cannot come up with a better response than that right now (I hate waking up tired and brain muddled) but once again I am grateful for being shown another perspective. I really wasn't aware that science and psychology were at odds. Something to take into consideration in the future when expressing opinions.

[IndiReloaded]

Depends on the scientist and type of psychology. Some of it is fine, particularly the neuroscience-based research. A lot of it is... entertainment. Of course, that makes for fun arguments, so its all good.

[jb1111983]

Now I'm confused. What's this thread about again? Astrology vs religion? Lol
Sorry OP. You're way better off without that guy.
Hope you find true love. Good luck!