Losing your loved one to death vs. being dumped...

[Kyeema]

Hey to all of you!

I appreciate it very much that you all care enough for me to want me to get better... each of you has their own opinions on how I should do that... and I respect that... and I am grateful for any new strategy I learn...

Hurtsoul, thanks so much for looking out for me here...

She doesn't know whats best for her or she would stop doing what she's doing because it's not helping her to overcome.

Wakeup, you're trying to help, thank you, but the thing is you only know what I do post here and not what I do when I do not post here. I post here in my weakest hours and when I feel worst. When I feel I can't bear the pain any more. Of course I know what's best for me and I am not an emotional cripple... I am recovering from some big losses in my life, that's all. And I know exactly what I have to do to get better, but sometimes things get rough and too much, I feel overwhelmed and I come and post here to find some comfort in my darkest hours. I find your opinion interesting, you have some good ideas, but please respect that there are boundaries no one should cross. One of this boundaries is telling someone that he doesn't know what it's best for themselves especially when you know so little of this person and only the weakest parts. Please accept that.

I can as easily choose to be affected by others thoughts and opinions.

It's harder the other way round. I mean it's not hard to choose not to be affected by others thoughts and opinions, but it's hard to really be not affected by them. Still working at that. But getting better.

Awesome. Then she'll continue to bitch and moan about how it's not getting better, and you'll enable her to do that.

At some point, she's going to have to decide to actually get over this. We'd rather her do that sooner rather than later. Apparently, you want her to mope.

Mathias, have you even read my thread?

Yes, I know better than someone who's thinking 100% on emotion after going through a terrible experience. She's not thinking logically, and neither are you.

You're right when I come here to post about how I feel I am usually 100% emotional and in bad condition. As I said before I come here in my darkest hours to find some comfort. But I am not 100% emotion all the time. I don't come here when I know exactly what I have to do and manage to do it. I only come here and write about myself when I don't manage to do what is best for me, when something bad happens and I lose all hope. And then I come here to write it off my chest and I do not expect anybody to save me... a nice word and a hug are enough, to be heard and not to feel alone in my pain, these are the things that help in moments like this.

I will come here again to moan about how it's not getting better when I feel like it. I believe that's one of the things this forum is for. Some may come here to only find advice like some of you like to give it, but I also and mainly come here to "write off" my feelings when I am really down and feel hopeless. I appreciate any new strategy I find here that I haven't known before. But I don't like being patronized because of that small window through which you see me.

I am more than just pain and despair and anger and hopelessness. I am a whole person who made some bad life and love choices and now has to get over the consequences. I have a lot of life experience and I know exactly what to do. As most of us do. But I am human and sometimes I slip, my emotions "override" me and I come here to share my pain, cry out my feelings. I do not force anybody to read my posts. You can stay way from my threads if you don't like the way I cope with my situation and the way I heal. It's not the linear way you Wakeup would love anybody to have. It's ups and downs. I come here to share my downs because this is a broken hearts forum.

I'll start out by saying I respect your final comment, but to be honest all I see here is pure emotion. You seem to be coming only from a broken heart. Don't you want to feel better? Do you realise that only you can pick yourself up, brush the dirt from your knees and get on with your life?

Yes, usually when I post about my stuff it is about pure emotion. Emotions I need to let out and get over with. And yes I am coming from a broken heart. The love of my life left me which was something I would never even have thought of. Yes, I do want to feel better. One of the actions I set is to come here and write when I feel lowest or have no hope any more. Of course I am the only one who can pick myself up. And that's what I am doing at the moment. In my way.

If it's not okay to come here to post when you feel worst then please tell me and I will find somewhere else to go.

Thank you all again,
Kyeema

PS. It's half past midnight here in Austria and I have to attend a funeral later - so good night to all of you!

[Wakeup]

No Wakeup. Words hurt. More than blows.

No, HURTSOUL words do not hurt more than blows. You choose to let them hurt. Hurt from Blows you have no control over

but I also and mainly come here to "write off" my feelings when I am really down and feel hopeless. I appreciate any new strategy I find here that I haven't known before. But I don't like being patronized because of that small window through which you see me.

The problem with doing that is that this is a venue to discuss and share ideas and opinions and get advice. Its' not a live journal and you can't explect people to not comment when you ask "what do you think." If you just want to vent your pain than I'm not telling you what to do but perhaps the Blog portion of the site would be better suited to you in that manner?

If it's not okay to come here to post when you feel worst then please tell me and I will find somewhere else to go.

Was that another cry for sympathy? Of course you know it is okay for you to post what you want. You just won't always get the sympathing and enabling behaviour that you wish to receive when you pour your soul out the way you have been. Disagreeing with what you're doing does not mean you are disliked or being bullied. Know that and you will react less emotionally to things that are not what you expect to receive.

I accept that you want to wallow in your misery for as long as you feel the pain is your ally, however if you post then you will get opinions that you may no want to hear, that you feel are harsh, that are not the same as yours.

Peace to you soon.

[Vanessa]

It's just a discussion on a forum. Why let it get to you and take it as seriously as to feel hurt?

[hurtsoul80]

No, HURTSOUL words do not hurt more than blows. You choose to let them hurt. Hurt from Blows you have no control over

Let my correct that. Words *can* hurt more than blows.

Codependance no more is just another self help book. Maybe more successful but just another self help book. I cannot accept as axioms everything written in there.

In the rest of the world it is taken as granted that words can hurt and that's why we talk about verbal abuse.

[Wakeup]

In the rest of the world it is taken as granted that words can hurt and that's why we talk about verbal abuse.

You see, if a person has a good sense of self worth, they would never accept being verbally abused, they would immediately distance themselves from someone who purposely hurt them. Besides, no one has been verbally abused in this thread or any other that comes to mind. Verbal abuse would be me (or anyone else) calling her a loser, a cow that no one could ever love, that she was stupid etc. Surely you can see the difference.

As for your comments on Codependent No More. If you've never read it then you cannot judge it accurately. Come back when/if you ever read it and we can discuss your thoughts on it. Until then, you make little sense on the topic.

[hurtsoul80]

Sorry but it's another self-help book. You see its the orher way around, if you want to prove me wrong just show me where it has been referenced in valid scientific journals. But even then I cannot take everything written in there as axioms.

I didn't make any comment about it. Unless you regard that I called it a self help book a comment, it's not. Its a fact. I just said *I* will not take as axioms anything written in a self help book. Didn't criticized the book.

So are you suggesting that if I get hurt by you I should distance myself from you? (Even though you don't hurt me purposefully). And ignore any more posts by you? Is that what you are trying to achieve? Maybe I will take up on that :-P.

Don't change my words. I said that words hurt and that's why we talk about verbal abuse. I didn't say you, or anybody else, verbally abused anyone.

PS: Excuse me for the syntactical and grammatical mistakes but a) English is not my native language, b) I am writing on an iPhone which is a challenge by itself.

[Wakeup]

Sorry but it's another self-help book. You see its the orher way around, if you want to prove me wrong just show me where it has been referenced in valid scientific journals. But even then I cannot take everything written in there as axioms.

How do you know what it is if you haven't read it?

I just said *I* will not take as axioms anything written in a self help book. Didn't criticized the book.

I didn't say that you criticized the book, I said you can't judge it for what it is unless you've read it.

So are suggesting that if I get hurt by you I should distance myself from you? (Even though you don't hurt me purposefully). And ignore any more posts by you? Is that what you are trying to achieve? Maybe I will take up on that :-P.

That's not what I'm trying to achieve, but if that's what you need to do to feel safe here then by all means ignore me.

Don't change my words. I said that words hurt and that's why we talk about verbal abuse. I didn't say you verbally abused anybody.

Please, you're implyed that I hurt the op... it was you, not I that brought up verbal abuse. Verbal abuse hurts, disagreeing with her in a straight forward manner is not verbal abuse and if it hurt her then it was her choice to be hurt when she could have just as easily dismissed what I (and others) had to say and agreed to disagree.

It's easy to see that you're not leaving this forum anytime soon, so I have to wonder why you started that other thread on how to delete your profile.

[hurtsoul80]

How do you know what it is if you haven't read it?

I'll let you tell me what it is. A textbook? Is it teached in psychology classes? A scientific journal? What?

All I can see is that it is listed under self-help book category and that's what I said.

I didn't say that you criticized the book, I said you can't judge it for what it is unless you've read it.

Again I didn't judge it. All I said was (a) Its a self-help book. (b) Can't take things written in self-help book as axioms.

Please, you're implyed that I hurt the op...

I am pretty sure you hurt her feelings with your harsh reply but I agree I shouldn't imply that. And its not really respectful for her either. So I recall.

it was you, not I that brought up verbal abuse. Verbal abuse hurts, disagreeing with her in a straight forward manner is not verbal abuse and if it hurt her then it was her choice to be hurt when she could have just as easily dismissed what I (and others) had to say and agreed to disagree.

Please read the argument in its whole and follow the logic. I say words hurt. You say words don't hurt. And I tell you that they do and give as an example verbal abuse. Simple logic.

Verbal abuse is a subset of words. If verbal abuse can hurt, as I understood you agree that it can hurt, then it logically follows that words can hurt as verbal abuse is a subset of words.

It's easy to see that you're not leaving this forum anytime soon, so I have to wonder why you started that other thread on how to delete your profile.

I am entertaining myself at the moment. Are you in a hurry to get rid of me?

[Wakeup]

I am entertaining myself at the moment. Are you in a hurry to get rid of me?

Not in a hurry at all, I'm indifferent one way or the other as to what you do. I will say that I think you're far more interesting when you're not whining though. *I'll change that to read, Not whining on behalf of someone.

As for the rest. I find circular agruments tedious however; I have time to "entertain" you further. Verbal abuse is harmful and we both agree to that. Differing opinions are not verbal abuse and therefore one should not allow themselves to be hurt by them. if you do get hurt by, if you allow yourself to be hurt by a differing opinion, then it is your choice to entertain that reaction or dismiss it as quickly as it passed over you.

[hurtsoul80]

As for the rest. I find circular agruments tedious however; I have time to "entertain" you further. Verbal abuse is harmful and we both agree to that. Differing opinions are not verbal abuse and therefore one should not allow themselves to be hurt by them. if you do get hurt by, if you allow yourself to be hurt by a differing opinion, then it is your choice to entertain that reaction or dismiss it as quickly as it passed over you.

Not really circular. We were arguing as to if words can hurt or not. Now that we established that words can hurt, the question we have in hand is if the words you said are included in the subset of the words that can hurt or not. Or are they in another subset that can hurt only under certain circumstances...

But I think we will have to discuss this some other time. No matter how much I entertained myself, I did spend too much time and effort on something I shouldn't...

Have a good afternoon/evening.

[Wakeup]

Not really circular. We were arguing as to if words can hurt or not. Now that we established that words can hurt, the question we have in hand is if the words you said are included in the subset of the words that can hurt or not. Or are they in another subset that can hurt only under certain circumstances...

But I think we will have to discuss this some other time. No matter how much I entertained myself, I did spend too much time and effort on something I shouldn't...

Have a good afternoon/evening.

The key word here is 'abuse.' Abuse of anything is detrimental to all of us. No abuse was inflicted in this thread. If in fact Op was hurt here, then it was a choice she decided to run with.

I wish you a good evening as well.

[IndiReloaded]

Well, FWIW, some do make a distinction b/t verbal abuse (which this thread certainly isn't) and hostile language... which this thread and some posters might be responsible for.

Since WU enjoys books, here's a title I read years ago on this subject. Its pretty good I remember, tho I do think its important to recognize yet another difference: hostile vs. assertive. We as a society have lost the ability for civil, assertive discourse. People are now hypersensitive and PC, which keeps them from addressing their issues, IMO.

[url=http://www.amazon.com/How-Disagree-Without-Being-Disagreeable/dp/0471157058/ref=pd_sim_b_2]Amazon.com: How to Disagree Without Being Disagreeable: Getting Your Point Across with the Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense (9780471157052): Suzette Haden Elgin: Books[/url]

@ Kyeema-- You mentioned the funeral today I think. Condolences, sweet Hope you are doing ok.

@ Hurtsoul, your posting style reminds me of a young man called Neo. He was one of my favourite posters until he went nuts and started spamming the board.

[Kyeema]

Hey guys!

If in fact Op was hurt here, then it was a choice she decided to run with.

No, I was not really hurt here because I don't take anything here personally. You all try your best to help and it's up to me to take the things that actually help me and leave the things that don't. But I do believe that words can hurt and I don't think you always have the chance to make a choice to whether words hurt you or not. Especially if these words come from a person close to me. I, however, also think it's something I'd like to achieve in the future: having the choice over whether words hurt me or not. Wakeup can you honestly say that you have never been hurt by words?

Was that another cry for sympathy? Of course you know it is okay for you to post what you want. You just won't always get the sympathing and enabling behaviour that you wish to receive when you pour your soul out the way you have been. Disagreeing with what you're doing does not mean you are disliked or being bullied. Know that and you will react less emotionally to things that are not what you expect to receive.

No, I meant this seriously. Perhaps it's just meant to be a forum where you go for for advice but not for pouring your soul out as you put it. That would have been fine with me, you know. I just needed to know. But I wonder what it is with you and sympathy, you see it everywhere, Wakeup, even if it's not even there, you are so stuck in this sympathy construct, so what's up with that?

I also wonder about the way you use the word "enabling"... for me it always meant that with it you enable people to become their best, to grow to their fullest, to live their inner potential... am I misusing the word here? (I am not a native speaker)

I accept that you want to wallow in your misery for as long as you feel the pain is your ally, however if you post then you will get opinions that you may no want to hear, that you feel are harsh, that are not the same as yours.

That's okay. What I don't like however is the narrow-minded way you see things and that you don't listen to what people say here. For you there is only one solution and that's it. I can say as often as I want that I want to get better, that I am on my way to get better, that I have bad times where my world just crumbles, but that I am on my way out of all this pain. In my limited way with the preconditions given, some of which make it harder but which I just can't change, I am on my way. Still you insist that I am not and go on lamenting about I should do it and what would be best for me. But you never answered the questions on how to do it really. E.g. when I asked how to best cope with the fact that everything in this house reminds me of him, but I can't afford to move. Or how to go best about the fact that I have to have contact with him because of the money he owes me. You just insist on your NC-policy, but have nothing to say when it comes to different cirdumstances where NC (which I really preferred) isn't possible. You just keep repeating yourself over and over again.

You see, if a person has a good sense of self worth, they would never accept being verbally abused, they would immediately distance themselves from someone who purposely hurt them.

Of course they would, but how many people are lucky enough to have that kind of self-worth? It's a long way to get there unless you were lucky enough to grow up in a loving environment which allowed you to develop this kind of self-worth - I wasn't. And I find find this the hardest thing to achieve: develop self-worth. Mostly in an oral discussion or emotional situation I even have troubles feeling my own feelings and realizing what I want beacuse I was drilled to read others people's minds and emotions in my childhood, it was my survival strategy: always know what the other person feels, thinks and expects and then act accordingly. So often I do realize only afterwards that somebody was just treating me badly and that I was hurt.

Someone here, I think it was Jenswaiting, but I can't find the post any more, said that there are professionals in this forum but won't show themselves openly. But there are things that help you see who could be one and who couldn't. Here are just 3 of them:
* Therapists don't tell you what to do or what is best/right for you, they assist you in finding this out for yourself.
* Therapists don't use words that could hurt you or make you feel even worse, they know how to say things that you maybe don't want to hear in words which you can accept, reflect on and then change upon
* Therapists don't judge or criticize, they stay neutral and help you find your own opinion and way with things

You mentioned the funeral today I think. Condolences, sweet Hope you are doing ok.

Thanks, I am okay. I came back home very late from this funeral yesterday night. It was a very nice service, only the closest relatives and friends were invited and we all looked out for my Aunt and helped making the farewell as beautiful and loving as possible. For the first time in weeks the sun was shining again and I think you can say it was a "beautiful day" if you can say something like that about a funeral. I don't know how to express it but we were family and there was besides sadness, tears and grief, so much love among all of us so it was something special. Most of us then also had a Wiener Schnitzel for dinner at the restaurant we gathered after the service as a tribute to my uncle who at restaurants was always studying the menu for ages and then in the end would order his beloved Wiener Schnitzel every single time. I think he would have liked that. And he would have also liked the way we all said good-bye. Now the real griefing part starts for my aunt, till yesterday she was so busy organizing things she had hardly time to think, but now it's final. I felt her pain very well yesterday and I know it will be incredibly hard for her to ever get over this loss, but inside she is strong and with the help of family and friends she will manage.

Here a question for you Wakeup: when my Aunt in a few weeks of time will still wallow and cry about her loss and how she can't live without him, would you tell her the same things you are telling people here all over the forum? Would you tell her to stop lamenting and moaning and wallowing and finally get over it? Or would you rather be understanding and loving and giving her all the time she needs for recovering from her loss?

[Wakeup]

Hey guys!


No, I was not really hurt here because I don't take anything here personally. You all try your best to help and it's up to me to take the things that actually help me and leave the things that don't.

Well done!

But I do believe that words can hurt and I don't think you always have the chance to make a choice to whether words hurt you or not. Especially if these words come from a person close to me. I, however, also think it's something I'd like to achieve in the future: having the choice over whether words hurt me or not. Wakeup can you honestly say that you have never been hurt by words?

No of course I can't say I've never been hurt by words... As I said, you can dismiss the hurt as quickly as it passed over you. That is what you can control.

No, I meant this seriously. Perhaps it's just meant to be a forum where you go for for advice but not for pouring your soul out as you put it. That would have been fine with me, you know. I just needed to know. But I wonder what it is with you and sympathy, you see it everywhere, Wakeup, even if it's not even there, you are so stuck in this sympathy construct, so what's up with that?

I'm not understanding what you're asking of me?

I also wonder about the way you use the word "enabling"... for me it always meant that with it you enable people to become their best, to grow to their fullest, to live their inner potential... am I misusing the word here? (I am not a native speaker)

You're certainly not helping someone to grow to their fullest, to live their inner potential if you just let them wallow in thier pain and just go there, there. As I said it's fine in the beginning but when you see that someone is becoming addicted to something that is not in their best interestes but you keep allowing them to think in the same destructive manner then you are enabling them and you are doing the exact opposit of allowing them to meet their utmost potential.

That's okay. What I don't like however is the narrow-minded way you see things

That's your perogative to not like my opinions

and that you don't listen to what people say here.

I listen, I just don't agree with you or what you're doing. Theres the difference.

I can say as often as I want that I want to get better, that I am on my way to get better, that I have bad times where my world just crumbles, but that I am on my way out of all this pain. In my limited way with the preconditions given, some of which make it harder but which I just can't change, I am on my way. Still you insist that I am not and go on lamenting about I should do it and what would be best for me. But you never answered the questions on how to do it really. E.g. when I asked how to best cope with the fact that everything in this house reminds me of him, but I can't afford to move. Or how to go best about the fact that I have to have contact with him because of the money he owes me. You just insist on your NC-policy, but have nothing to say when it comes to different cirdumstances where NC (which I really preferred) isn't possible. You just keep repeating yourself over and over again.

Well I'll apologize for not giving my advice on those things but with the other poster answering for you I guess I got embroiled with that.

If everything in the house reminds you of him, and you can't afford to move then how about doing some redecorating which shouldn't cost you a whole lot of money but will keep your mind busy and will make you feel like you've accomplished something for you. You need to concentrate on yourself and take your mind off of him. Paint, new throw rugs, fresh drapery that sort of thing. You can also start to make new memories there with friends and family.

As for the money he owes you. I know you're not strong enough to do this but have you thought of taking him to small claims court or contacting a lawyer for advice on how to get it back? Do you have anything in writing that he owes it to you? You need to get stronger with him and set a payment schedule at least and if he doesn't adhere to it then get some advice from a lawyer.

Of course they would, but how many people are lucky enough to have that kind of self-worth? It's a long way to get there unless you were lucky enough to grow up in a loving environment which allowed you to develop this kind of self-worth - I wasn't. And I find find this the hardest thing to achieve: develop self-worth. Mostly in an oral discussion or emotional situation I even have troubles feeling my own feelings and realizing what I want beacuse I was drilled to read others people's minds and emotions in my childhood, it was my survival strategy: always know what the other person feels, thinks and expects and then act accordingly. So often I do realize only afterwards that somebody was just treating me badly and that I was hurt.

You can overcome your childhood. This is where therapy and self improvment books come into play. They teach ways to overcome and allow you to love yourself. You know, when you love yourself you are hurt when you lose someone but you overcome quicker because you've worked to be the best you that you can be and you know that when you're ready, you will find someone else who will want to partner up with you again. When you are not codependent, you are capable of maintaining a life alone. I've been with the same man for over 30 years and I would be grief stricken if he should die and leave me behind, however I will not stop living and I'll not need to write my bad day(s) on a public board so that strangers comment and enable me to remain in grief. I will have the tools to overcome and live the rest of my life in relative happiness.

Someone here, I think it was Jenswaiting, but I can't find the post any more, said that there are professionals in this forum but won't show themselves openly. But there are things that help you see who could be one and who couldn't. Here are just 3 of them:
* Therapists don't tell you what to do or what is best/right for you, they assist you in finding this out for yourself.
* Therapists don't use words that could hurt you or make you feel even worse, they know how to say things that you maybe don't want to hear in words which you can accept, reflect on and then change upon
* Therapists don't judge or criticize, they stay neutral and help you find your own opinion and way with things

You have experience with therapy then? Have you considered going to one again? It may help you with your less than wonderful childhood. This is a forum board it's not therapy.

Here a question for you Wakeup: when my Aunt in a few weeks of time will still wallow and cry about her loss and how she can't live without him, would you tell her the same things you are telling people here all over the forum? Would you tell her to stop lamenting and moaning and wallowing and finally get over it? Or would you rather be understanding and loving and giving her all the time she needs for recovering from her loss?

No, after a few weeks, I would not. However; If, like you she showed no progress in recovering and it looked (like you) that she was becoming addicted to her sorrow then I'd tell her: Look, you need to start doing things and being proactive in overcoming or this will become your lifestyle... joyless and unmotivated.

Be well, Kyeema.

[hurtsoul80]

The key word here is 'abuse.' Abuse of anything is detrimental to all of us. No abuse was inflicted in this thread. If in fact Op was hurt here, then it was a choice she decided to run with.

I wish you a good evening as well.

Well its obvious that you cannot or don't want to continue this conversation based on logical arguments. So I will stop discussing with you here.