understanding the mind of someone who isn't there to ask

[jillianwetzel]

This is a hard situation to explain. I'm discovering more in hindsight than while I was living it, but my main goal is to understand the behavior of someone who is no longer in my life to ask.

An ex and I have been in and out of contact for 13 years. We dated briefly, and before I was smart enough to know better, I became his "go-to" girl when he was feeling lonely. He began dating someone seriously and our contact was very infrequent until a few years ago. I was going through a rough patch - missing a guy friend at work that had moved out of the area. I began writing my ex to vent my frustrations or to tell someone about my successes for the day. He was okay with this although I didn't hear a lot back from him until one day he asked to have dinner with me. I had moved this guy to a place in my mind where he was "unattainable" to me - it helped me to understand why he chose to date another girl and remain out of contact with me, and it helped me keep my lingering feelings for him in check. Needless to say, our dinner date did not go well (in my eyes). I was pretty awkward and uncomfortable but he invited me to his condo anyway. He made a comment about a back rub and I high-tailed it out of there - I was into that kind of relationship anymore. I didn't hear from him for awhile until I sent him a gift for helping me through my rough patch and he asked me out to dinner again. This was a date - he turned on the charm, took me out to meet his friends, and I was overwhelmed. I was confused because he was taking me out to dinner to "pay me back" for my gift, he was telling me about his life in a way I had missed for a long time, and then took me out to meet his friends - before I had even had a chance to reacquaint myself with him. I was very uncomfortable and neither he nor his friends helped me get out of my shell. I left that night, and I think that was the end of our "chance" for dating.

I continued to stay in contact with him like before. Did I want a chance to date him again? Yes. But I also wanted to get to know him, and I was my own worst enemy in that area. He finally got irritated with me for my behavior (especially my indecision when we made plans because I was always afraid he didn't want to go) that he blew up at me. He rarely gets angry, so I knew he was pretty upset with me. He was not giving me what I wanted, which was the time and the assurance that I needed to see he was interested in me beyond the old pattern. He would probably say my standards for him were too high, I would say I was protecting myself. This is where I start to have trouble understanding, and need some perspective on his mindset.

At this point, I think he was done with pursuing any type of relationship with me. His behavior towards me became more irritable. I had never heard from him frequently, but heard from him less frequently than before. I assumed that was because of our fight and since my goal was to be in this guy's life (friend or otherwise) I kept trying. I don't know what his intention was towards me. I hadn't heard from him for awhile and was so irritated with him that I made a smart-aleck comment about him dating someone and hoping she was worth it. Did this guy have a history of disappearing when he dated someone? Yes. Did I think that being older he would be more of an adult about it and try to be friends with a girl in spite of his dating life? Yes. He told me it was none of my business and that he didn't have time to date. The first, absolutely true. The second, I didn't really believe. I knew he dated. Maybe it was his subtle hint to me but I took it at face value - he was too busy. At this point, or somewhere in the next year or so, I think he did begin to date someone else. We didn't see each other for almost a year. I tried to make plans with him to smooth things over but we had trouble with e-mail at work and it got lost. We ended up seeing each other that summer and had a decent time - at least I thought. He mentioned something about having drinks afterward but that it was getting late. Maybe that was kindness and not the truth, but he never followed up so I continued to think he wasn't dating and that I still had more to do in repairing our friendship. I asked him to do something with me a few weeks later and he agreed with the caveat that he was really "busy" and knowing that I was asking him to do something that fell around a holiday and not wanting to be disappointed if he couldn't follow through, I said it wasn't a big deal and let it go at that. I want to clarify that although I hoped we might date someday, my first priority was to be friends with him. My concern in his "dating" life was primarily that I did not want to remain in contact with him if for some reason that made him or his girlfriend uncomfortable in anyway. It was a past pattern, so one I was conscious enough of that I was waiting for the time when I wasn't able to continue the friendship anymore.

The last time I saw him was a few months ago. We had dinner where I found out he was selling his place. I asked why and I don't remember getting an answer, nor did I get an answer when I asked where he thought he was moving to. A fleeting thought was that he was probably moving in with a girl, but I figured he would tell me if that were the case. Things were okay but it felt awkward for some reason and he didn't seem like he really wanted to be there, especially at the end of the night. I tried to shrug it off like he was tired, but it concerned me. I knew he had a lot going on in his life at the time and was concerned about him in general - he always said things were stressful and busy. Trying to be a friend, I would contact him every once in awhile and ask how things were and would continue to get the same response if I heard anything at all from him. Knowing his stress, I asked to take him out to dinner for his birthday. I figured it was easier than a gift, and I could check on him and see if things were okay. He blew up at me and told me he was too busy to find time to celebrate his birthday. I knew that wasn't true, because I couldn't believe his family and close friends weren't planning on doing something for his birthday. Between not hearing from him and getting the brunt of his anger, I told him it was okay to tell me that it wasn't that he didn't have time to celebrate his birthday but that he didn't have time to celebrate it with me. That prompted more anger, and I didn't hear from him (although I tried to shrug it off) for a couple months. I finally said I knew he was mad and that I was sorry and for the first time in months he told me he wasn't angry. Things were fine with us. I asked him if he would have dinner with me for my birthday (selfish, I know) and he said yes. I asked him pretty far ahead of time and I kept sending reminders about it for the next few weeks and then sent the dates. He never responded...he never gave an excuse. At first I was disappointed, and asked what happened. No response...and continued no response until I finally blasted him and said some things I regret in anger. I was frustrated that he wasn't telling me what was going on, and that I was losing a friend and not quite sure when that had happened. He asked for some space and I was floored, then angry, and then sad. I had lost someone in my life I genuinely wanted there. Then, I found out he had a girlfriend. A serious one. Then things began to make sense. Why he was irritated with me, why I didn't hear from him sometimes, why things felt different.

The more I think back, the more I realize that this had been a long time coming and I stupidly took his excuses at face value. When he said he was busy with work I believed it, when he said nothing was wrong I believed it, when he didn't respond I figured he was busy, when I asked him to do things and he said yes I believed he actually wanted to go, and when I got yelled at and told I was "overreacting" because he didn't have time to have dinner with me for his birthday it was because he didn't have time to see me. To make the situation worse, this has been going on for about two years. Two years this guy tried avoidance, starting arguments, responding that things were fine, having dinner with someone he didn't want in his life anymore ... all because he never had the courage to tell a girl who was interested in him (and I believe he knew that deep down) and that was trying to be a part of his life that he didn't feel the same way about her. Two years that he must have been terrified the girl he was dating was going to find out about a girl who kept "hanging around" even though he did nothing to make me believe we were friends or more than that.

Why would he have done that? Are guys really that afraid of conflict? And what conflict would I have caused? A casual mention of a girlfriend, in any conversation, would have at least given the hint any intentions of dating (or making it more than it was) were out the window. I would have understood I needed to contact him less because I knew he was busy and that he had time commitments that maybe didn't include a "girl" friend anymore. I would even have liked to know that he didn't want my friendship anymore, that he didn't enjoy my company because I figure - if he didn't want me around anymore, why would it matter if he was a jerk or not? I'm so confused, and as this person is no longer a part of my life, I am completely clueless as to understand why he let all of this go on for so long without speaking up?

[misombra]

Im sorry that was very long and i did not finish it but it sounds like you are not going to get a great relationship out of this. You're trying is in vain. If you want to try for something more, i think you should tell him to call you when he's willing to put in the work and not before then. In the meantime put your own work in with somebody who is more suited to you.

[smackie9]

You are not getting it....he just was never that into you. Your awkwardness is because your gut is telling you something is wrong.....Like I always say, if it doesn't feel right, it's not.

[jillianwetzel]

Actually, I'm not interested in having a relationship with this guy ... my long-winded description is trying to understand why it happened at all. When this guy lost interest, why didn't he put a stop to it? Why didn't he say flat-out he didn't want my attentions anymore? I am not saying I am blameless because I obviously tried to hard to fix things when the started to go downhill, but what I never once heard him admit (although I brought up the subject a few times) was that he wasn't interested in having me in his life anymore? All I remember are mixed messages ... one time a get-together ignored, the next accepted, then a nice e-mail response about how his life was going, then nothing for a few months ... I can only imagine his frustration with the situation but don't understand why he didn't man up and say something? Obviously there was no friendship to preserve, so being a jerk wouldn't have really mattered would it? We don't run in the same circles, had he been blunt he would have never had to see me again.

[smackie9]

Why worry about it then? If there was nothing in it for you....who frickin cares? Put it all on "ignore".

[alwaystryin]

Unfortunately there is no answer that will satisfy you. I'm sure you want to think there was a good reason, such as he wasn't quite sure that he didn't love you anymore. So maybe thinking that gave you a false sense of hope that all your efforts weren't in vain. My first instinct was that he met someone else. Unfortunately, that is the reality and that is your answer. Why didn't he say anything? Because he has no balls. Lying, manipulation and endless vagueness are not the traits of a stand up guy. The best thing you can do is learn from this experience and LISTEN TO YOUR GUT NEXT TIME. I know it sucks and you've been through a lot in the past two years, but if you really think about it, you did it to yourself. You pursued him despite knowing deep down that it was over anyway. It sucks to look back and realize you've been the sucker. Learn from it.

[jillianwetzel]

alwaystryin,

In a way I'm sure you are right - no answer would satisfy me. And I do see the situation from a variety of perspectives - obviously, it bothers me because it hurts to know I invested time and energy and cared about someone who would ultimately treat me in the way he did. I do see my own part in creating the scenario - hanging on to something and putting more effort and energy into it and coming off as needy and annoying instead of independent and self-respecting. But I also think I do have a right to be angry or question what he did - one of the things I valued about him, and why I wanted him in my life, is that he is so very different from me. His perspective on life, the way he lives it, etc. So I know it is hypocritical to be judgmental about how he handled the situation (because it is the opposite of how I would have handled it), because he is the opposite of me. He would handle it differently, in the way he felt best.

The one thing you did say that made me feel better was that he wasn't a stand-up guy. I don't blame him entirely for what happened, I know I am equally to blame. And when all of his anger with me over the situation boiled over at the end when I dared to be angry with him for breaking plans with me, and made a stab in the dark as to why he was avoiding me (which could still be true or false, although it had nothing to do with his girlfriend) I did look inward to see if what he said to me was true. I've never had a problem owning up to my mistakes or looking at my behavior and saying I was wrong. Thinking over this situation proves it, although it has taken me a long time to see the situation objectively and without emotion or blame because I was so blind to what was going on. But sometimes, at my weakest, I still believe him to be a good guy. The guy I would like to remember him to be. And then I think, I wish we had another chance to get it right, because this girl he met is so lucky. And although it is awful to think, it's nice to know that maybe she isn't so lucky, and that I actually am better off in the long run without him.

[alwaystryin]

I know it's difficult. I still struggle with similar feelings as I unfortunately have to deal with my ex being the father of my son. He did way worse to me but it was all along the same lines as what you've gone through. It's probably why you related to my post, I've BEEN THERE. There is no 'good' answer.. welcome to heartbreak. It sucks. But as you've already spent more than enough time torturing yourself the best thing you can do is move on. I say he's probably not a stand up guy because he isn't. I did learn an extremely important lesson from my similar experience. PEOPLE WILL TREAT YOU THE WAY YOU ALLOW THEM TO. Especially men like these. They are cowardly in the first place. That combined with having a woman pine over them gives them very little reason to do anything but continue to play you. If they couldn't be upfront in the beginning they sure as hell won't in the end. I had to put a lot of focus on myself and found that I was very used to hurtful relationships in my life, especially by those that are supposed to love me. I was used to being treated like crap. I'm the only one that can decide I deserve better and I'm the only one that decides what I will and will not settle for or accept in my relationships. Do not contact this man ever again. It will take you time, but do whatever you can to stay away and figure out a way to convince yourself of what you already know deep down. You deserve better. Stay strong and I wish you the best.

[IndiReloaded]

Why are you making it his responsibility to be clear about things? Why didn't you simply ask him? Actually, I see you as having some serious assertiveness problems. In fact, I'd say it was your indecisiveness that turned him off in your early dating.

You sound like you wanted him to sweep you off your feet or take charge or something. He sounds like he wants more of an equal partner. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you, BTW. Only that the two of you are clearly not compatible. You'll have to find a way to move on. Sorry, sometimes life is like that.

[IndiReloaded]

hanging on to something and putting more effort and energy into it and coming off as needy and annoying instead of independent and self-respecting.

Yes, exactly.

But I also think I do have a right to be angry or question what he did - one of the things I valued about him, and why I wanted him in my life, is that he is so very different from me. His perspective on life, the way he lives it, etc. So I know it is hypocritical to be judgmental about how he handled the situation (because it is the opposite of how I would have handled it), because he is the opposite of me. He would handle it differently, in the way he felt best.

Wow, those expectations are... a bit creepy, actually.

And when all of his anger with me over the situation boiled over at the end when I dared to be angry with him for breaking plans with me, and made a stab in the dark as to why he was avoiding me (which could still be true or false, although it had nothing to do with his girlfriend) I did look inward to see if what he said to me was true. I've never had a problem owning up to my mistakes or looking at my behavior and saying I was wrong. Thinking over this situation proves it, although it has taken me a long time to see the situation objectively and without emotion or blame because I was so blind to what was going on. But sometimes, at my weakest, I still believe him to be a good guy. The guy I would like to remember him to be. And then I think, I wish we had another chance to get it right, because this girl he met is so lucky. And although it is awful to think, it's nice to know that maybe she isn't so lucky, and that I actually am better off in the long run without him.

You sound like you were sticking your nose into business that was, frankly, not yours. I'd say he was being exceptionally polite under the circumstances. Your behaviour actually sounds stalkerish, or at least obsessive FYI. Neither is good. You need to stay away from this guy, you sound kind of nuts about it.

[alwaystryin]

Codependent.

[jillianwetzel]

IndiReloaded,

Thank you for classifying me as "stalkerish" and "creepy" based on a short snapshot of my life and of my relationship with this person that I known for over 10 years.

Did I want to be swept off my feet by him? Yes. I've known him a long time, and have often been the person HE called on for things but have often found that when he was put in the same position to do something for me, he didn't. Obviously this time he was there for me, but I had been burned in the past by him. So yes, I needed more this time in order to trust him.

As for this statement, I mistyped. What I meant to write was: But I also think I DO NOT have a right to be angry or question what he did - one of the things I valued about him, and why I wanted him in my life, is that he is so very different from me. His perspective on life, the way he lives it, etc. So I know it is hypocritical to be judgmental about how he handled the situation (because it is the opposite of how I would have handled it), because he is the opposite of me. He would handle it differently, in the way he felt best. However, I didn't realize it was wrong for me to value having people in my life that thought differently than me. Would I have handled the situation differently - yes. I would have confronted the issue along time ago if I were on his side of things. Did I have suspicions of what he was thinking - yes. But when I asked, he said that wasn't what he thought. I chose to believe him, because in the past when I questioned him, he told me that I needed to stop questioning everything he did and said. So how was it "creepy" to do what he asked?

As for stalkerish, did I drive by his house 20 times a day? Did I call him incessantly? No. I tried to maintain a friendship (mainly one-sided) with someone who was admittedly busy with life (and a valid reason for being so). I never questioned that, because I believed it to be the truth. Was he more irritable with me? Yes, primarily when I addressed the issue with him that I didn't see or hear from him much anymore and wondered if things were still okay with us. I knew our relationship would change when he began dating someone and although the signs were pointing in that direction, when I asked he got irritable with me. Otherwise, when I heard from him, our conversations were "catching up" and nothing to be concerned about, beyond that fact that I wasn't hearing about all the great things going on in his life. That could easily have been because he was busy with life and that was a stress and burden on him he didn't want to talk about. I tried to support him (as he had supported me) even though he didn't ask for it. I didn't realize that offering support to someone that didn't ask for it was a crime, or made me a stalker. It meant that I cared about this person and their well-being (beyond the fact that I was interested in dating them if the opportunity arose) and let them know I was concerned and around if they needed something.

If you read the title of the post, it's asking about "his" behavior, not "mine". I never said I was blameless, and I am more than capable of analyzing my own behavior in the situation and learning from it. My question is about his...why HE chose not to clue me in on the changes in his life that affected our relationship, why HE chose not to address my behavior initially instead of letting it build to the point it did, why HE remained somewhat in contact with me when he no longer seemed to have any interest in doing so.

It's fine if you think I'm a stalker - it's your opinion. Do I think that I began to realize our friendship was over? Yes. Do I think that I tried like mad to stop that from happening? Yes. If that makes me obsessive, than so be it. In a way I probably was. Sometimes we get fixated on things and we don't even realize it. Like a needle skipping on a record. But like a needle on a record, all it takes is a bump to get it moving forward again. I'm trying to understand why he chose to let me keep skipping instead of bumping me along so that both of us were in a better place...instead of letting the situation escalate the way he did.

Like everyone said, and I know myself, I'm never going to know how this got where it did because I'm basing a lot off of memory and the facts are fuzzy. But I love how people are more than happy to throw negative labels at someone who tries to succinctly describe a situation based on their own perspective and get trashed for it. Maybe I am stalkerish, crazy, obsessive, whatever. But also, maybe this guy isn't a stand-up guy. Maybe he has some fault in the situation too, instead of being given a pass for being "nice".

[bcgirl]

wow, you've really got stringed around for a LONG time. I just didn't understand why you have put up with that sort of behaviour for SO LONG. and you couldn't have moved on and started dating yourself. Some people get a satisfaction of knowing that there are other people that have crushes on them, it boosts their egos....even when they want nothing to do with them in a romantic way. Whenever he was upset (maybe with his relationship), or lonely....he knew he can always rely on you to "be there" until he is happy again or his relationship is back on track. I don't think he was ever that into you as wanting a romantic relationship with you. If he wanted that, he would have made it happen. But instead he made it happen with other girls. The times when you thought you stood a chance were the times when he was lonely and desperate to get his ego stroked. Friends don't use friends for their selfish satisfactions.

[IndiReloaded]

IndiReloaded,

Thank you for classifying me as "stalkerish" and "creepy" based on a short snapshot of my life and of my relationship with this person that I known for over 10 years.

Did I want to be swept off my feet by him? Yes. I've known him a long time, and have often been the person HE called on for things but have often found that when he was put in the same position to do something for me, he didn't.

You are welcome. Its an honest assessment of your behaviour from where I sit. Did you post here looking for an objective opinion on your situation? Or do you only want reinforcement of your pre-determined views?

I dont know you or your friend. I have no vested interest in your situation. I simply gave what I think is an accurate assessment based, yes, on your post. What else could I possibly base it on?

Its seems I called the 'wanting him to sweep you off your feet' part right. But not the rest? Perhaps. Or perhaps your overly defensive response to an internet forum poster (that YOU requested advice from) has posted somethings about your behaviour that has struck a bit too close to home.

Its your navel, babe. I suggest you take a hard look at that dark space, but its no matter to me or anyone else here whether you actually do. Good luck.

[IndiReloaded]

I don't think he was ever that into you as wanting a romantic relationship with you. If he wanted that, he would have made it happen. But instead he made it happen with other girls. The times when you thought you stood a chance were the times when he was lonely and desperate to get his ego stroked. Friends don't use friends for their selfish satisfactions.

This^. Its sucks, but it sure sounds like the truth, doesn't it? And yes, it makes him a jerk, but so what? That's his problem to deal with. Time to get off the needle, Jillian.

(I'd thx your post, Bcgirl, but can't. I owe you.)