Why "we" instead of "you"?

[Wakeup]

"There there... you treated all of us like sh*t because you wanted to go to the store, but weren't able to? Aw, I understand. It will be alright."? What universe does that make the slightest bit of sense? How can you [not] look at someone who would say those words as a weak, loser with no self respect?

I wouldn't expect you to say those words to her. As far as I'm concerned those are words that enable her to be who she is (raving, hormonal beotch?) and who she is right now isn't who we want to give her sympathy to. We do want to let her know that being frustrated for not doing things in the order she wanted to do them is understanable however; her projecting her anger/disappointment/frustration onto others is not acceptable. Hopefully your therapist will help you to have the strength to be apathetic while you say what needs to be said so that she doesn't become defensive and lashes back again. Do you see?

[Incognito]

You finally understand what I meant. You too deserve oral pleasure! Lol. You see that is why I come off as stubborn sometimes. If I know I'm right and my reasoning isn't solely based on opinion I won't accept any other point of view unless it is backed up by fact or convincing supporting evidence (not opinion). Also, to answer your question, yes I see. I also hope that the counselor does indeed help me to find a way to tell my wife what I need to without sparking another controversy. Currently I suck at that part.

Oh yeah, where is Vashti since I'm passing out oral pleasure for good advice? Lol!

[IndiReloaded]

There is a way to say it w/o bending over, Cog. Assertive vs. aggressive, as mentioned before.

"I know I not the greatest at [insert working flaw here], and I'm really trying to improve, but when you [insert her working flaw here] it really make me feel... and makes it difficult for me to focus on solving the problem we are having. It gets my back up, frankly. Why don't we try [insert new, non-escalating behaviour here]." Remember to smile and use open non-aggressive body language when you say this. If you think this is bending to her will (its not), then *you* have a serious issue to discuss with the counsellor. It takes work to be diplomatic tho, no question. Expediency is not going to work for you in this.

Someone has to provide a positive model for good behaviour. Your past behaviour is not what I would call positive, it is coping (or status quo). It will be good for your kids to see this new strategy for dealing with conflict as well. Ask your counsellor for suggestions.

Also, I wonder if your wife has problems *recognizing* her anger when its approaching. That's one of the main issues for people who fly off the handle, I believe.

@ HIA - am I right about this? You are our local LF expert on this.

[VincenzoG91]

Also, I wonder if your wife has problems *recognizing* her anger when its approaching. That's one of the main issues for people who fly off the handle, I believe.

Yep. In anger management, there was a heavy emphasis on identifying our triggers for anger, then developing strategies for avoiding those triggers or coping when they are unavoidable. For example, if road rage is a problem, try leaving early for work and/or heading home later, just to miss out on the worst part of rush hour. That could also pay off by making you look like a really dedicated employee if you are on a salary. And if you end up in a potential road rage situation anyway, one possible way to de-escalate the situation would be to slow down and pull over somewhere for a short break from traffic. My dad hated waiting in lines, so when we went on our annual trip to the amusement park, he would skip the rides and just walk around enjoying the sights.

[IndiReloaded]

Right, but I wonder about recognizing actual physical symptoms. I got really angry once and remember a 'rush' feeling (adrenaline?) that was actually quite unnerving.

[Incognito]

There is a way to say it w/o bending over, Cog. Assertive vs. aggressive, as mentioned before.

"I know I not the greatest at [insert working flaw here], and I'm really trying to improve, but when you [insert her working flaw here] it really make me feel... and makes it difficult for me to focus on solving the problem we are having. It gets my back up, frankly. Why don't we try [insert new, non-escalating behaviour here]." Remember to smile and use open non-aggressive body language when you say this. If you think this is bending to her will (its not), then *you* have a serious issue to discuss with the counsellor. It takes work to be diplomatic tho, no question. Expediency is not going to work for you in this.

No, that isn't unreasonable. If fact I tried a similar choice of wording many times when we first got married. One of her tired issues is, and I quote, "that you always bring up [my] flaws like you're perfect or something". I believe we here at LF already covered that, but it is something that she cannot seem to get over. I'm not going to randomly discuss something I need to work on if I'm confronting you about your destructive/unhealthy behavior. Anyway, we already talked about that. She may or may not recognize the signs of her getting angry. I personally doubt that she does, mainly because the things she gets angry about are many and varied.

I analyze a lot of things, so I know that when I get really angry I actually get calmer, take a deep breath, and the back of my head gets a tingling sensation that starts at the base of my neck and goes all the way up the back of my head. Then I identify the problem and attack it accordingly.

[IndiReloaded]

No, that isn't unreasonable. If fact I tried a similar choice of wording many times when we first got married. One of her tired issues is, and I quote, "that you always bring up [my] flaws like you're perfect or something". I believe we here at LF already covered that, but it is something that she cannot seem to get over.

I suspect there is a disconnect in what you think you say and the words you actually use. Reread my statement. I suggest you use that exact format until you are confident enough to not elicit the type of response from her you describe above.

If she is saying "that you always bring up [my] flaws like you're perfect or something", then you *aren't* using the form I suggest, which explicitly states an awareness of your own flaws as a preface to the issue. It sets up a friendly dialogue, something you don't seem good at.

You can argue this with me if you want, but the proof is in the results. At the moment, your language isn't getting you the results you want.

[VincenzoG91]

Right, but I wonder about recognizing actual physical symptoms. I got really angry once and remember a 'rush' feeling (adrenaline?) that was actually quite unnerving.

I see what you're getting at. Yeah, I always get that rush when I'm really angry. In the past, I actually considered that a benefit of getting angry. I became more likely to lose my temper, because I felt more powerful and energetic while angry. It took the anger management before I could acknowledge the full price that I was eventually paying for that energy boost: the apologies, the damaged relationships, the write-ups in my HR file.

[MaidenMinx]

Right, but I wonder about recognizing actual physical symptoms. I got really angry once and remember a 'rush' feeling (adrenaline?) that was actually quite unnerving.

Wow, just once? Is that the normal level of getting that angry?

I ask because I am similar to incognitos wife, except I recognise my anger issue and have been working on it for years. I'll always be working on it because it is such an insidious problem.

First thing about anger that was eye opening for me is that anger is always a secondary emotion, there is always something before it. Annoyance, irritation, sadness, it doesn't matter what the primary emotion is, recognising it is the key. Once it is recognised it can be dealt with before anger kicks in.

Once anger kicks in and the rush begins, there is nothing that can be done, except ride the storm. The angry party must want to be calm before calmness will find them. Personally, I can be shaky and edgy for hours after a rage session. They don't happen very often anymore. I used to feel like I had a ball of rage in my stomach just waiting to be released, I felt like my anger was a part of me. It took quite a lot of councelling to overcome it and I was aware of it and wanted to change.

Incognito, I wish you luck with marriage counselling.

[HeartIsAching]

There is a way to say it w/o bending over, Cog. Assertive vs. aggressive, as mentioned before.

"I know I not the greatest at [insert working flaw here], and I'm really trying to improve, but when you [insert her working flaw here] it really make me feel... and makes it difficult for me to focus on solving the problem we are having. It gets my back up, frankly. Why don't we try [insert new, non-escalating behaviour here]." Remember to smile and use open non-aggressive body language when you say this. If you think this is bending to her will (its not), then *you* have a serious issue to discuss with the counsellor. It takes work to be diplomatic tho, no question. Expediency is not going to work for you in this.

Someone has to provide a positive model for good behaviour. Your past behaviour is not what I would call positive, it is coping (or status quo). It will be good for your kids to see this new strategy for dealing with conflict as well. Ask your counsellor for suggestions.

Also, I wonder if your wife has problems *recognizing* her anger when its approaching. That's one of the main issues for people who fly off the handle, I believe.

@ HIA - am I right about this? You are our local LF expert on this.

Yes, absolutely. Lemme try to remember what they said about it in my classes.

Basically:

Anger is a secondary emotion. Regardless of what you think you feel first, you feel another negative emotion first, and we're socialized to display anger instead. Anger is nearly always fear in some form or other masquerading as something else... so instead of feeling embarrassed, unappreciated,hurt, sad, confused, hopeless, misunderstood or just plain afraid, we display (and feel!) angry instead. It's true of men or women, but men especially are trained (socialized) since birth to not display those emotions. Hell, I considered myself pretty liberated and was guilty of it myself with my son - saying things like "shake it off, you're ok." and not telling him that it was ok for him to be hurt. For men especially, we're trained to display basically two emotional modes - happy or angry.

A huge part of this is expectations, and poor communications. If you have expectations, and fail to communicate them clearly, you feel sad, unappreciated and hopeless when your expectations are not met, which is felt and expressed as anger. I'll give a really exaggerated example:

Your wife goes into the bathroom in the middle of the night. She goes to sit on the toilet without looking as women are wont to do (this is basically because they don't lift the seat to pee, it's not in their routine to check up or down, it's just the way it is) and you've left the seat up. She's never said to you that she wants you to put the seat down, for months she's been pointedly banging the seat down when she finds it up. In her mind her passive-aggressive behavior has made the point to you that she wants the seat down. To you, you may have simply noticed that she's being loud lately with the toilet seat and wondered why... so in the middle of the night she goes to sit and winds up with a wet ass. Now she's feeling embarrassed, voiceless and unappreciated, and she comes in and erupts vitriol all over you. You sit there stunned going "WTF?! You never SAID to me that you wanted me to put the seat down" and in her mind she's said it to you a thousand times. That's an unreasonable expectation fueled by poor communications and passive-aggressive behavior.

This is entirely common. I used to do this, and my ex is the Cruiserweight World Champion at it.

Another thing is the habit of taking things personally. Say you're at a restaurant and the wait-person is taking a long time to get to your table. You may not know that the dishwasher has just broken a glass and has cut himself badly... so you (or your wife) takes it personally, getting angry at the server for not taking care of your needs immediately. This is actually (primary emotion) feeling unappreciated and unimportant which is expressed (secondary emotion) as anger.

I had one the other day I had to really work at with my wife. She told me that her last class was over at 12:15, and she'd meet me at Harbor Freight at 12:30 or so... being the very beginning of her semester, I didn't know her schedule yet so it didn't ring any alarm bells. I bicycled over to Harbor Freight, arriving there at about 12:30 and started shopping for the stuff we wanted. She runs late all the time so I wasn't really worried when she wasn't there right away, but by 1:00 I was getting a bit worried. By 1:30 I was really worried... she's also a bit accident prone in the car (not her fault, people seem to run into her), so I got back on my bike and rode to the University. I got there and our car was still in the lot. I had to really force myself not to get angry and take it personally. I wanted to, I really did, but I consciously decided that there was no way in hell she'd be that inconsiderate without reason, so I just sat down in the car and started doing crosswords until she showed. At 2:15, my phone rang and the first thing out of her mouth was "What time did I tell you my last class ended?" I said "12:15" She said "Oh my god, I'm SO SORRY. Where are you?!" I said "In the car". She came right out all was good... but a couple of years ago I would've been totally bent out of shape because I wouldn't have stopped to think about it, would simply have believed that it was personal and that my wife was really capable of doing that sort of thing.

One thing for both of you to work on is recognizing your anger cues - physical, emotional and mental cues. When you start to get angry (or your wife does), what are you feeling physically? Do you maybe feel your ears get hot? Your face get red? Your breathing quicken, you ball up your hands into fists, whatever it might be. The same thing goes for emotional and mental anger cues - what are you thinking and feeling?

Once you have those nailed down, when you start feeling or thinking those things, you can stop and consider - why am I getting angry? What's really at the bottom of this?

Hope I haven't gotten too in-depth.

[Incognito]

Nope, not too in depth. I'm not sure what my emotional cues are but I know that mentally I try to assess what the person actually means and their intent. I have had white guys have conversations about "niggers" and black guys go on and on about how white people hold them back (I'm both black and white and pass for both). I don't get angry if the intent to hurt me isn't there. With my wife though, she knows that she is being hurtful and thinks that everyone needs to simply accept it. I don't simply accept it, which is why there is trouble.

@ Indi: I did use a wording very close to that a long time ago, but it didn't matter to her back then. Perhaps it would work nowadays, but I haven't cared much to bring myself up when addressing her anger just to placate her. Maybe the counselor will suggest something else.

[IndiReloaded]

Wow, just once? Is that the normal level of getting that angry?

I ask because I am similar to incognitos wife, except I recognise my anger issue and have been working on it for years. I'll always be working on it because it is such an insidious problem.

LOL, who knows what 'normal' is? I get cheesed off, sure but that rush thing was unusual and frightening to me, as I said. Everyone has their concerns, Minx. Mine is probably to repress too much which is expressed as snippy, overly analytic sarcasm. ;-)

[Incognito]

Ok LF people. This is hot off the press. My daughter just went to my mom's house, apparently without saying bye to the wife (I was outside talking to.my mom, not inside). Anyway, the wife asks where she is (which is probably the second or third sentence we've spoken to each other since Saturday). I tell her that she left already and surprisedly ask "Why she didn't say bye?". All I get is an eye roll, a quick "no", some mumbling under her breath and the door slamming as she goes into the bedroom. I don't flinch and add some wood to the fireplace.

She returns about a minute later and blurts "So are we going to talk or are you just going to not say anything?". I say "Yeah we can talk. Exactly what do you want to talk about?". She looks at me, says "oh I guess there isn't anything to talk about" and marches downstairs. This is what I have to deal with....

[IndiReloaded]

Ok LF people. This is hot off the press. My daughter just went to my mom's house, apparently without saying bye to the wife (I was outside talking to.my mom, not inside). Anyway, the wife asks where she is (which is probably the second or third sentence we've spoken to each other since Saturday). I tell her that she left already and surprisedly ask "Why she didn't say bye?". All I get is an eye roll, a quick "no", some mumbling under her breath and the door slamming as she goes into the bedroom. I don't flinch and add some wood to the fireplace.

She returns about a minute later and blurts "So are we going to talk or are you just going to not say anything?". I say "Yeah we can talk. Exactly what do you want to talk about?". She looks at me, says "oh I guess there isn't anything to talk about" and marches downstairs. This is what I have to deal with....

Your mistake in the interaction--that is my advice not 'right or wrong' to be clear--is that you didn't immediately respond with

"I would love to speak with you. Can we discuss what just happened with our daughter?" Unless she is insane, it would have preempted her stalking off. Your choice of words like "exactly" and responding to her request with an open-end question are dialog blockers, fyi.

[Incognito]

Point noted, but I feel the "I'd love to.." part is a bit over the top. There is no way in hell I'd prostrate myself verbally like that given the situation.