Do we think this is a cause for concern, or maybe a good thing?

[Tonia2]

Oh yeah, a few small indications of a shift in power. He kept commenting on how feisty I am and how I have changed. I said that I was definitely tougher since he left. I also said that I wasn't really sure what I want anymore, and he said rather plaintively 'you want me...' (in a jokey but definitely quite needy way)...

[Tonia2]

Its getting better... he has invited me for dinner tomorrow night before our 'date' to the director's Q & A on Sunday. He also offered for me to borrow his flat to watch DVD's during the day while he is away (which I declined - I have my own perfectly good flat, but nice to be asked!)

Not going to push things now, just trying to enjoy this stage...

[C1d6OC]

What an interesting turn of events here. I must say, reading these last 3 posts, you haven't really made much effort into initiating the contact, where i could be wrong, but that is great. You have gained this so called 'power' from what I can see. Your first post clearly showed that you weren't really pleased with what he had to say and you definitely made him realize it. He even messaged you to appologize. The next few posts, he again made a generous offer to stay at his place and you showed no mercy and declined.

I think one thing that you have realized is that you said you aren't sure what you want anymore. I'm under the assumption that if you said this to him, it must be true. I'm pointing this out, because this is where I felt as though you are going to explode one day. When I said that, I didn't mean you would necessarily tear the house down, but internally you are also starting to wonder where this is going.

I have a question of curiousity through all of this. You have obviously shown great strength through this which is especially hard, because it is hard to maintain that contact with someone without completely falling apart and you have done what most wouldn't even consider (myself being one of them) only because most would have been too hurt to do so. My question is this. You seem to enjoying this stage and show great patience, but how much more will you be able to take? He has shown plenty of indications that he isn't going anywhere too soon. I just don't seem to grasp why he can't just flat out say you guys are an item again. Is he afraid of something?

Now I may have completely bypassed somethig in previous posts from a while ago, but this guy is starting to get on my nerves...lol. Understand Tonia, that I'm not out to throw him down and stomp on him, but I'm a little concerned for your sake. I appologize in advance, because I know this guy hasn't done anything wrong, but I just don't understand why he keeps fiddling with your head. However, despite all this, you are handling it well and I hope *crossing fingers* that this will eventually have a good ending. You are still an admiration. Keep it up!

Cdoc

[Tonia2]

Thanks Cdoc - it is nice that you are supportive enough to have an opinion about him! I really appreciate you looking out for me. I think really it is safe to say that we are tentatively a couple again... that is to say that nothing can be taken for granted on either side. There is also the issue of my brother, who must not find out about this in the short term, and I also stand by the fact that he needs some counselling. I will bring this up again at the appropriate time, and am prepared to withdraw from him if he does not seek it.

I am pretty sure that he loves me, enjoys my company, feels great tenderness towards me, but he is battling his desire to stay with me with his knowledge that a real commitment has to be made at some stage. It is this that he is not ready for (and neither am I) but he seems to be obsessed with the perfect nuclear family (kids etc) and this is what he is seeking, but misguidedly I think. THis is another issue that I think he needs professional help with. I think he is so obsessed with this ideal image of settling down and what the person that he settles down with will be like, that he is losing sight of the reality of a relationship.

In the meantime, he complimented me for my new boundaries, and he said he sensed a real change in me - that I am much tougher. This has to be a good thing, and I am very glad that he is developing a healthier respect for me. I hope that this helps with some of your questions. I don't think I am strong at all. The strong thing would have been to have left and to force his hand, whereas I have stuck around for the ride - weak rather than strong if you ask me. You have been the strong one, sticking to your guns and getting on with your life in a really positive way. I am NOT a subscriber to the belief that love conquers all and you should fight for it. I do not see myself as a tragic heroine who has stuck by her man through thick and thin. I see myself as a bit pathetic sometimes for not kicking him to the curb, but hey, I'm not going to beat myself up about it - and it might end up with a positive outcome.

Asking for help by being on this forum and going to counselling and 12 - step meetings is all really new behaviour for me though - so one step at a time, eh? THanks again.

[cycletease]

how much more will you be able to take? He has shown plenty of indications that he isn't going anywhere too soon. I just don't seem to grasp why he can't just flat out say you guys are an item again. Is he afraid of something?

I appologize in advance, because I know this guy hasn't done anything wrong, but I just don't understand why he keeps fiddling with your head. However, despite all this, you are handling it well and I hope *crossing fingers* that this will eventually have a good ending. You are still an admiration. Keep it up!

Cdoc

This is a great post.

[C1d6OC]

Maybe I have been strong, but in my own ways. You have shown great strength through this and you do appear tougher. You have definitely grown and it is not only showing with what you post, but with also what he says. I could go back to old threads that you had and quote things that you have said and you'll see how much stronger you have grown. If you were weak (in my opinion), then you would be begging to make sure you have his attention always and run a typical dumpee type of move. But you're not and that's why I see you being strong.

Apart from that, I thank you for seeing me as appearing strong. Words though are hardly enough from where my heart is at. At least I have accepted my closure, because my ex has not contacted me since the letter I wrote, which allows me to move on much better.

I also just want to apologize for having an opinion on your guy. But you're absolutely right, I'm just looking out for you, because I have read in detail each post you have made and I really do feel for you. I would have stopped posting ages ago if I wasn't interested. Anyway, enough with the rambling. As you say, one step at a time.

Cdoc

[Tonia2]

You are really strong, and you have such a positive attitude that to me shows that you have quite high self-esteem - it is enviable, trust me...

He just called again to ask why I didn't reply to an email.

[cycletease]

1)I think really it is safe to say that we are tentatively a couple again... that is to say that nothing can be taken for granted on either side.

2)I also stand by the fact that he needs some counselling. I will bring this up again at the appropriate time, and am prepared to withdraw from him if he does not seek it.

3) I am pretty sure that he loves me, enjoys my company, feels great tenderness towards me, but he is battling his desire to stay with me with his knowledge that a real commitment has to be made at some stage.

4) It is this that he is not ready for (and neither am I) but he seems to be obsessed with the perfect nuclear family (kids etc) and this is what he is seeking, but misguidedly I think. THis is another issue that I think he needs professional help with. I think he is so obsessed with this ideal image of settling down and what the person that he settles down with will be like, that he is losing sight of the reality of a relationship.

5) In the meantime, he complimented me for my new boundaries, and he said he sensed a real change in me - that I am much tougher. This has to be a good thing, and I am very glad that he is developing a healthier respect for me.

6) I don't think I am strong at all. The strong thing would have been to have left and to force his hand, whereas I have stuck around for the ride - weak rather than strong if you ask me. You have been the strong one, sticking to your guns and getting on with your life in a really positive way.

Hi Tonia,
It is really good to hear from you and I am feeling encouraged by your post.

1) If you guys are, in fact, a couple again it is time for you to start considering some things about making this relationship sustainable. Although he may be being a complete jerk, the guy does need a break sometimes. Of course I am only hearing about the relationship points in your posts, but I am concerned that a large part of your relationship now is laboriously hashing out the relationship. If everytime you guys see each other you get into some weighty discussion where you are dissatisfied with him, things really will get boring. I think that you telling him you didn't want the big talk this weekend was a very needed and good thing to do. props to you.

2) Agreed in this area. You cannot force the issue but if things don't move in the direction you want you can always leave.

3) I think you are right, he probably really does love you. Sadly he is so confused he doesn't know what he wants. It isn't fair to you to keep you in limbo. He needs to figure it out soon. This is not a good stage for you to be in. If it continues for any sustained amount of time it will be time to consider ending things, i think.

4) I agree with this and think this insight might be the key issue at work. I think that pursuing this thought is a good idea.

5) He does need to respect you and I think that that may have been missing before. More importantly, you need to respect yourself. You need to not be a doormatt for both of your sakes.

6) I think you are wrong, I am amazed by your strength. Consider that sometimes staying is harder than leaving. You could have walked, not continued this tremendous struggle and where would you have been? You have grown so much and have sought help, stood up for yourself, grown a backbone! Had you ended things you would not have been standing up and making needed changes. Your next relationship would have found you the same person, sacrificing yourself and the relationship. You are walking the hard path and improving yourself...the hardest thing anyone can do. Please credit yourself where you deserve it. Your love of this guy makes you feel weak, but your personal strength and determination are nothing of the sort.

In my recent relationship rough spot I confronted the same issue to an extent. As you know, I tend to be a giver, like yourself and lose my own personal boundaries when I love someone. My guy is a selfish one and tends to take and it was leaving me very leeched. I could have just walked...but I would have learned nothing. I chose to stick around and fight to improve myself. I figure if I can have boundaries with this guy then I can have boundaries with anyone. Even if things don't work out with the relationship I will have grown as a person and that is enough to make it worth it for me.

Tonia, I am really proud of you. In spite of all of the turmoil and no matter how this all pans out, I think you are going to be in a healthier place than you were before. You are doing great.

My new orders for you are to stop rehashing the relationship for now. There hasn't been enough time to concretely resolve anything for either of you. I am afraid micro focusing on where this is going is leaving you going nowhere. I would like to see you do a true "start-over". No more focusing on the problems, the insecurities or the past hurts. I want to see you move forward and start in a new direction and let it all go. This will give you both an opportunity to reflect on where you are, where you are going and where you have been. Have some fun, enjoy each other and free yourself for a time. In a couple of weeks or so you can resume discussions if needed...hopefully you will have some new things to say to each other...right now it is getting redundant.

[Tonia2]

Cycle, I wish I had seen your post on Friday! My weekend was confusing again I am at the point where I am about to go away, and I am not looking forward to it at all. Having spent pretty much the whole weekend with Dave, I feel like I am at the tentative stage of a relationship where you don’t want to be apart in case things change.

Friday night was out with friends. He called at 1am Sat morning to find out about my night out – lots of grilling about who I spoke to etc. Saturday night was nice – went over and had some food and spent the night. Kept off dangerous topics. He did say stuff like that he had ‘just found the situation we were in at the end (living in my parents flat with bro and girlfriend breaking up) really difficult’. I also brought up what he was telling his friends and he said he had told some of them. I also said that it was important to me that I wasn’t a sordid secret and that I would like to be considered ‘his bird’

He argued that this is just semantics and he does have a sense of responsibility towards me.

Sunday went to the cinema, and I confronted him because he wasn’t very tactile towards me. He said that he hadn’t realised but that it might be weird being ‘lovey dovey’ as we are not a couple. I freaked out at this – he keeps erecting these barriers every time I feel I am breaking through, and it really annoys me. He admitted
that it was just semantics again – he just wasn’t ready to be introduced as ‘my boyfriend’ and hanging out with other couples at the moment. He tried to make up for it and was then very tactile, but it was a big red flag.

We went back to his for dinner and ended up in bed, where I finally got him talking in his old, gentle, nice style. He told me that he couldn’t imagine anyone better for him than me – as his wife, mother to his kids etc. He didn’t think he would find anyone better, but he is really scared of committing to one woman for the rest of his life/ f*cking up again (like his other marriage)/ the expectations of my family etc.

I felt like I was really getting to the bottom of things here. I had had a wee cry, because I was just comparing how it used to be in his flat, when I felt so loved and adored, to feeling empty and lost now. He held me really sweetly and told me that he doesn’t even feel that differently towards me now as he did then


He kept saying ‘you are pretty special, do you realise that?’ and that I am the most special person in his life (that isn’t surprising, as there aren’t that many others in his life!). I quizzed him on the fact that he said he didn’t know if he could commit for the rest of his life and asked him if he wanted to go and see what was out there and he said that he didn’t think he did.

I told him to go and pose in his local boozer and he said that this would probably make him realise what he potentially has with me. It was all quite good stuff, but SOOOO frustrating – so close and yet so far. He qualifies everything by saying that he isn’t sure that he can offer me what I need, not now and he is not sure if he ever can, and yet he wants a family and kids and stuff

We got dressed, he cooked me dinner and he came over to me while I was reading the paper and kissed me really tenderly and said again that I would be the best mother/ wife etc. and that if it was any consolation I was top of his list.

I joked who else was on his list, and he laughed and acknowledged that there is no-one. We had a nice dinner and I steered the conversation onto his work, which he loves talking about and takes great pride in, so I think we left on a good note. Then he called me late at night when I got home. He did the really annoying ‘what is love’ thing when I asked him if he loved me, which really annoyed me as well

I am soooo confused and pretty lost and I am sure you are really bored of hearing this. How do I get him to come around? He says that he will read one of the commitment books, and I think he may get an epiphany if he does. I am hoping this will make him more willing to seek counselling.

Your advice is brilliant and I will definitely just enjoy seeing him and not discussing the realtionship when I next see him. Thank you.

[Tonia2]

You are so good at this cycle. He did actually say that he was really suffering with all this analysis and that we were spoiling something that could be good! I have been accused of this in previous relationships too by the way.

[cycletease]

Well in spite of all of his uncertainty this guy still keeps coming around very steadily. Talk about a guy caught up in semantics! You can be his girlfriend as long a no one calls you that. He makes me laugh!

It is hard in a developmental spot in your relationship to go away, i totally understand that. I am in the same position but went away for the weekend recently to visit a girlfriend. It was a really good thing because it gave him a chance to miss me and reflect. He actually called me over the weekend to talk about the relationship because it had given him some time to think about things. I think it will work well for you as well and may be what he needs to get some perspective. Going away is one of my favorite ways to remind a guy how lucky they are...if they can't miss you they easily forget how much you mean to them.

I would like to offer a word of caution on another subject. I understand at this difficult time your need for reassurance, but I truly believe that you need to be careful asking for it from him. Questions about how he feels for him are only going to feel like pressure to him. Anything that can be construed as needy is something you might want to avoid right now. When he is less confused he will be able to offer more, but right now I think he is having a hard enough time figuring things out for himself. The direct questions leave you both more confused.

My take is that your guy is really in love with you and is not looking for someone else. His commitment issues really seem to be not with whom but with the permanance of it all. Perhaps it is also a self confidence issue and he feels nervous about comitting to "provide" for someone forever. Since he is always so worried that he can't give you enough, perhaps he feels inadequate in some way. Also, with his worries about his job, maybe this permanent position and better pay will actually reassure him in some way.

Again, I would recommend reading that book, here is the link:
[url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590523172/qid=1111425974/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-7842436-4477438[/url]

I thought it was insightful about how men see the world and brough up things that had not occured to me. I think anything you can do to get a better understanding of what he might be thinking would be useful right now.

Again, you are doing fine. Go on this trip and give both of you some space. Give the relationship a rest for a bit and enjoy yourself. You want to work things out with this guy because you love him, not so that you guys can be constantly in turmoil. So do some of the things that make you happy in the relationship and see if you can get yourself back on track. One of the best things that you can do for a relationship is let go of some of the bad times. If you can put them in the past and move forward your relationship will have a better chance.

You have every right to be upset about things like him not wanting to call you his girlfriend, etc, but I have a feeling that picking at each of these issues individually will get move you backwards. It seems like you are jumping on the small things to avoid talking about the elephant in the living room.

[Tonia2]

Honestly, reading your posts, whether they are kicking me up the arse or reassuring me make me sigh a huge sigh of relief. I suddenly feel sane again after all my projection and angst - so thank you again. I wish I could return the favour - you alluded to what is going on with you, please feel free to expand any time you like - I can give reasonably rational advice, even if I can't always take it.

You have pointed out what I was missing - there is no joy in rehashing the same thing again and again. I don't know why I ever expect his position will have changed in 24 hours! I will now go and enjoy this holiday - I know nothing is going to happen in the meantime. I will also have a look into this book - thank you. He always used to say that he found my need for reassurance exhausting and draining, so yet again, you have hit the nail on the head. Luckily, I think we had enough good times over the weekend to compensate for the odd bit of neediness. The one positive thing is that my way of dealing with things has changed. Where before I would be whiny and ask what I had done wrong, I am now displaying anger and firmness instead, which seems to be impressing him more and enhancing his respect for me.

[cycletease]

Honestly, reading your posts, whether they are kicking me up the arse or reassuring me make me sigh a huge sigh of relief. I suddenly feel sane again after all my projection and angst - so thank you again. I wish I could return the favour - you alluded to what is going on with you, please feel free to expand any time you like - I can give reasonably rational advice, even if I can't always take it.

I am glad that I can help a little. Sometimes having someone to vent to makes all the difference. I think that this holiday will be a really good time to get away. Having such a close view of an all-consuming issue makes it hard to see anything else. I think a break will give you time to think about your goals and your reasons for staying in this and allow you some much needed fun.

You have been a tremendous help to me on my relationship issues and I really trust your advice. You never owe me anything, and...it makes me feel good that I may be able to help you out. Your personality is a lot like mine so I can see where you are coming from easily and I know the traps that you will walk into since I have done so myself!

I think you are headed in the right direction with your guy so don't worry about leaving for a weekend. He isn't going to run off with another girl or change his mind about things in that time. If he did do that then you wouldnt want him anyway.

[Tonia2]

Yeah - he is absolutely not the type to do that. Just had a good session with my counsellor about boundaries - she accurately identified my anger, which I always repress - it was pretty good to get it out there (towards my brother and the ex b/f). I am back a week today, so will check in then. I hope I manage to focus on other things, not just him and the relationship in the next week.

Have a great week and good luck with everything.

[Tonia2]

Hello anyone who is interested in an update. Had a great week in France – very chilled out and lots of thinking time. Got a few texts saying he was missing me and stuff. Went out last night with him – he was clearly pretty excited to see me, but I felt strangely numb… it is so funny how these things happen, isn’t it? I just don’t feel the passion at the moment, but I think that is much healthier. It was borne of that feeling of rejection and desperation to ‘make it better’ I think. Anyway, he was quite sweet, and tactile. Just noticing different things slipping into the conversation. He was saying how nice the houses would be to bring up a family, and referred to the baby names that we had jokingly chosen for our kids – I told him about my counseling ambitions and he asked how that would fit with raising a family etc. I dunno – probably not too much to read into it, but its interesting.

He also said that he found my new attitude much more attractive. It was nice to see him. I drove him home and he said ‘arent you coming up?’ to which I said that I wasn’t, but that after I went out on Saturday I would like to go and see him. He baulked slightly at this, and in retrospect, it was a bit of a mean thing to say.

Slept on it and called in the morning to see if I had slightly overstepped the mark by being too elusive and hard. He said that it was weird how things were swinging round and he had been a bit hurt that I had said I had ‘plans’ on Saturday, didn’t tell him what they were and just wanted to see him after that. I admitted that my feelings have changed and he said, ‘well how do you feel?’. Its so funny – the amount of times I have put on that plaintive voice and said exactly the same!! I said I was definitely more ambivalent, but that he is a great friend and very special to me. Anyway, I am going round on Saturday night at some stage to spend the night with him.

Not sure how to interpret all of this, but it feels very strange not to be so needy – I almost miss the intensity of my feeling – isn’t that strange? I still love him very much, but I think it is in a more balanced way… we will see. He is much more involved in my plans for my future and stuff (thinking about doing a counselling diploma and he jokingly offered to support me to do it full-time?!) but I am getting more and more bored of the indecision. On the one-hand I really like being independent and emotionally self-reliant, but I do want to know where all of this is going – I want to settle down and have a family soon, and can’t be doing with his f*cking around too much longer in case I miss out on someone else. I know he wants the same though, so I guess I can hold out a bit longer and see if we can make a go of it. He just freezes whenever he is pressed on the nature of our relationship and I am not going to press him anymore as a result.