Dating advice for a former friendzoned

[formerfriend]

TL;RD version: I was friendzoned hard, we didn't met for years, I need dating advices now.

Wall of text ensues....


I met this girl more than 10 years ago, she was a classmate of a very good friend of mine. She was after him but he didn't really care about her (even though, I learned later, they had casual sex a couple of times). Years passed and we became good friends, shortly after I fell in love with her.
I won't go too much in the details but let's just say I got friendzoned really hard, and that went on for a couple of years, to the point that some friends jokingly started calling me "doormat", because that's how they felt she was treating me. I now believe it wasn't her fault for treating me like that, it was me who begged for it just to be in her company.
What happened next is that she finally managed to get the attentions of our common friend and they got into a relationship. I wasn't angry with her, because I knew she used to be after him; and I wasn't angry with him either, because well...I couldn't blame anyone for wanting her. At that point I just felt guilty because I was in love with one of my best friend's girlfriend, but maybe it was for the best as I started to feel a bit more detached. Eventually they broke out and the chances to see her started becoming fewer and fewer, to the point that we lost contact. I stuck with my best friend and we're still pals to this day.

In the following 3 years we only met twice and in social contexts (a birthday, and randomly in a pub), I learned that she had a boyfriend and she was living with him. While I was a lot more detached than I used to be I nevertheless felt a bit jealous.

NOTE: Before I proceed to present day I believe it's worth mentioning that our relationship in the friend-zone wasn't the "I'm telling you everything" deal, we never told each other confident stuff; instead it was really physical, with lots of hugs and cheek-kissing and touching and patting and lap-seating. She would often ask me to massage her back both when we were alone and when we were with other people (it's no wonder they called me like that, after all). I was allowed to touch her pretty much everywhere on her body except her breast and between her legs, without her freaking out or looking uncomfortable.
Some times I thought she was being a teaser, other times I believed she didn't even considered me like a friend, but more like a brother.


Present day:
In the 3 years where we didn't met (except those 2 times, where we didn't interact much) I missed her a bit (even though it was bearable as I was now detached) and found myself thinking about her at times.

Finally this February I decided to call her to hear how she was doing, she was really happy to hear me and she asked to arrange a reunion with some friends, including that friend of mine who used to be in a relationship with her 5 years ago. I'm sure that they do not have any interest for each other now, but the fact that they shared intimacy and talk about the past in front of me (like "do you remember when we were together and we went to that place...") makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. On top of that I'm already quite a shy person (even though I'm not as shy as I used to be) and I wouldn't dare to make a move on her in any place where he could see us, I wouldn't want him to realize (or maybe remember, if he had any suspect before) that I was in love with her when they were together.
From that meeting I learned that her last boyfriend, the one she was living with, proposed her to marry, she refused and they broke up something like 3 months ago. She is now living with a friend of hers and her boyfriend, as they had a free room in their apartment. I also learned that she's training as a midwife, and between hospital shifts and university courses she is really busy and has a really hectic schedule (that's important).

The shocking thing that happened when I got home is that I realized I'm still in love with her, all my old feelings for her suddenly came back with the strength they used to have several years ago.

We met once more at her friend's birthday (the one she's sharing the apartment with) at a youth centre, but it was really boring and the 3 of us: me, her and "her ex boyfriend / my best friend" left early and went to her place to play board games and chit chat until late at night.

Last time we met was last Friday for her birthday in a pub, it was the 2 of us and a bunch of other people, including the usual "her ex boyfriend / my best friend". Again, I'm sure there isn't anything between them now but I just feel awkward when I'm with her and he's around, however a couple of beers (more like 4-5 actually) allowed me to be a bit open despite his presence. Three key events happened that evening:

1. At some point, after a few beers, we both had to pee. The venue only had one toilet for both genders and right in that moment they also had a blackout, so she kept a small portion of the door open while I was making light through it with my mobile. Even tough we were both a bit tipsy I think this means she doesn't feel embarrassed with me standing there hearing the sound of her pissing through the partially-open door (and that she trust me with not opening the door). Later she did the same for me and I made a small joke about the shadows (a subtle reference to my penis), she laughed.
2. She complained that one of her hands was much colder than the other (it indeed was), so when she let me feel it I enclosed it with both my hands to warm her up. We stood like that for a few minutes, her hand in mine on top of the table, while we kept chatting with other people. At some point with her other hand she started stroking mine, I still wonder whether this gesture was just a "thank you for warming my other hand" or some sign of affection.
3. I told her that I felt sorry for not calling her in the past 3 years and that I would like to start seeing her again. She already told me what her weekly schedule is like, and it's a real mess, with day and night shifts at the hospital changing every week plus university courses plus the studying at home. So I have no chance to know when it is a good moment to call her, she could either be busy or sleeping after a night shift.
   So I told her "whatever, I will start pestering you, just let me know if it is too much" with a smile on my face, she replied "I appreciate that, but you have to be ok with the fact that most times I just won't have time and will have so say no. Being so busy is the reason why I also didn't call you, nor anyone else, in these years.", I replied that I would just keep trying.
   I tried to disguise that as "you are being a bookworm, let's go out and have fun", but I'm afraid I came out as needy (which I know I was on the inside).
   I then asked her when would she be available on the next week and she said that she would probably be free on Tuesday evening, but that I should call her on Monday evening to be sure, so I said "good, I'm inviting you out for dinner". Her reaction puzzled (and still puzzles) me, at first she suddenly pulled back with a surprised face, but just a second later she put on a big happy smile and replied she would gladly accept my invitation.

Sadly on Monday evening, when I was supposed to call her to confirm, I received a text where she apologized saying that she totally forgot she was having rehearsals with her band on Tuesday (something she already told me she was regretting having too few times), I replied with a text saying "No problem, let me know when you can, you are the one with the crazy schedule after all".
I have no reason to doubt that she told the truth, that she was indeed having one of her rare rehearsals, but now I'm stuck with a doubt: In an effort to look less needy I wrote her to tell me when she's available, this goes against what I told her the last time we met (that I would keep calling her) and so it may have caused confusion (without necessarily offsetting the neediness I had already shown), or she may just forget to answer because she's too busy.
I haven't heard from her ever since.

How long should I wait before calling her to remind my invitation?

Considering our past friendzone relationship, how should I behave with her on a date?

How should I interpret her reaction when I asked her out?

Any other comment or suggestion is more than welcome.

[smackie9]

" I was allowed to touch her pretty much everywhere on her body except her breast and between her legs, without her freaking out or looking uncomfortable." <<<this right here is what they call a cuddle bitch. A girl will let you cuddle, kiss, hold hands, hug, etc but nothing will ever come of it. Being a cuddle bitch is the kiss of death.

"I received a text where she apologized saying that she totally forgot she was having rehearsals with her band on Tuesday"

"She already told me what her weekly schedule is like, and it's a real mess, with day and night shifts at the hospital changing every week plus university courses plus the studying at home. So I have no chance to know when it is a good moment to call her, she could either be busy or sleeping after a night shift."<<<<<<<<this right here is the old excuse, after excuse. She has put up a barrier trying to hint that you shouldn't waste too much of your time on her.

Dude you are still in the friends zone. You are quite pathetic (sorry for being harsh) because you have been obsessing over this girl for 10 years....TEN ****IN YEARS!!!!! Get real! This girl is not interested in you. The puzzled look on her face about going out for dinner, was her quickly analyzing how to respond, so she played it calmly as to not hurt you.

It's time for you to move on, and realize that there is more to life than this girl. You have denied yourself other opportunities of finding someone who truly wants to be with you.

Please ready The Ladder Theory. It's might be kinda hokey science, but there is a lot that rings true in it. Also if you go on our main page here and on the right there is an article "The Friends Zones How To Identify It" by Cerby.

[HeartIsAching]

Did you ever say the word "date" or use the phrase "As more than friends" when you made arrangements for an outing? I'm not convinced SHE thinks it's more than friends. I think you're going into it with expectations that she isn't prepared to meet.

[formerfriend]

Did you ever say the word "date" or use the phrase "As more than friends" when you made arrangements for an outing? I'm not convinced SHE thinks it's more than friends. I think you're going into it with expectations that she isn't prepared to meet.

Nope, I didn't. But there's some cultural difference, we don't usually have "dates" (in the way that you mean it) here. What I was planning to do was to have a talk on how our lives have changed in the years we didn't met and present myself as the different person I am, and just see how she reacts.
And then maybe, just maybe and if the opportunity arises, try to kiss her. If it doesn't work (which I'm aware is highly probable) I'm not losing anything anyway.

It's time for you to move on, and realize that there is more to life than this girl. You have denied yourself other opportunities of finding someone who truly wants to be with you.

So, once in the friendzone, forever in the friendzone? Despite the years that passed? That's quite sad! I've not lost hope and I have a "let's try anyway" attitude right now. If it doesn't go as I wanted I would at least be free of the regret of never letting her know, and I'm sure I wouldn't lose her friendship.

As for the other opportunities...sadly I have zero interest in other girls right now, I actually find it so boring to lose time on them that if I go out I would rather be drinking booze with my male friends.

[smackie9]

There's a reason for that....you never let yourself let her go. You have lived on this fantasy that she is the one. You have wasted all these years....that is sad.

[smackie9]

So, once in the friendzone, forever in the friendzone? Despite the years that passed? .

Yes (even after 10, 20, 30 years).

[formerfriend]

There's a reason for that....you never let yourself let her go. You have lived on this fantasy that she is the one. You have wasted all these years....that is sad.

I did my best for 3 years, it didn't work.
Actually on a rational level I don't even truly believe she's "the one", I'm aware of all our differences and in all honesty if I were to give you an educated guess I don't even know how would it work out between us. Yet that doesn't change what I (irrationally) feel for her and I know I would try to make it work had I the chance.

On a side note, I have read that ladder theory. Honestly it sounded like a pretty simplistic and bitter interpretation of human psychology, with no real scientific basis (no, pie charts don't make it science). As for one I have a few attractive female friends I never thought about having sex with.

[smackie9]

maybe that's your problem.....You don't find women attractive or interesting enough.

[Cerby]

So, once in the friendzone, forever in the friendzone?

I don't think so, but the problem here is that you've gone right back to being the bitch, being the one to do all the planning, calling all the people, being a doormat. You haven't shown any change or initiative that makes you any more attractive to her than you were then. You were better off calling her up and asking her to meet you one-on-one for a coffee and telling her what you really wanted.

Sorry man, it isn't impossible to get out of the friendzone, but in your case, I don't think you know what it takes to make that step.

http://www.loveforum.net/threads/66900-The-quot-Friendzone-quot-How-to-identify-it-and-avoid-it

[toknow]

Probably the reason why someone is friendzoned is that there is no initial physical attraction, no chemistry, no spark, or else most likely it wouldn't happen. So, a friend might enjoy their company, but not be attracted on a physical and sexual level. And sometimes people confuse that comfort and fun with love. So, the problem here is you have a connection, but it's lacking the physical attraction, and can be very confusing for both of the people. A guess it's just like having a friend of the same sex except with other attributes, and benefits.

Also I think timing is very important. Basically, if nothing happens or progresses withing a certain period of time, it subconsciously shows people there is nothing more than friendship here and regresses to a stale state. There has to be some progress to the state of your interaction together. This also can be because the lack of progress shows the other person lack of interest, and their response is to do the same.

I don't think it's useful to go after someone who lacks interest in you, to the point that you have to do all the work. But, if you do something you have to do it with confidence. You also have to have self respect and I think she'll respect you more if she sees you respect yourself. I would say it's ok that you are doing all the work to a point, but at some point things have to turn around, you need to do a switch on her - where she would be calling you.

[formerfriend]

Probably the reason why someone is friendzoned is that there is no initial physical attraction, no chemistry, no spark, or else most likely it wouldn't happen. So, a friend might enjoy their company, but not be attracted on a physical and sexual level. And sometimes people confuse that comfort and fun with love. So, the problem here is you have a connection, but it's lacking the physical attraction, and can be very confusing for both of the people. A guess it's just like having a friend of the same sex except with other attributes, and benefits.

Also I think timing is very important. Basically, if nothing happens or progresses withing a certain period of time, it subconsciously shows people there is nothing more than friendship here and regresses to a stale state. There has to be some progress to the state of your interaction together. This also can be because the lack of progress shows the other person lack of interest, and their response is to do the same.

I don't think it's useful to go after someone who lacks interest in you, to the point that you have to do all the work. But, if you do something you have to do it with confidence. You also have to have self respect and I think she'll respect you more if she sees you respect yourself. I would say it's ok that you are doing all the work to a point, but at some point things have to turn around, you need to do a switch on her - where she would be calling you.

I have to thank you, this is one if the best comments I have received so far, here or elsewhere.
About your first paragraph however, I would like to point out that I do have physical attraction for this girl in particular, I just don't necessarily have it towards other attractive female friends of mine (I assumed you were referring to my last post).

I agree that I have to make that switch happen, it won't be easy as she's the kind of girl that would gladly spend a free evening just sleeping instead of calling friends to go out. But I do feel like I have the confidence that I lacked in the past.

[toknow]

I'm glad I can help and I hope things will work out for you. I think in time you will understand that sometimes, there is no point in working so hard to get someone who will not appreciate you enough. People tend to settle for someone they are not compatible with on an emotional level just because they like them physically. But, I doubt it's worth it in the end. But, there are also times where the person has resisted for a very long time, but eventually they fall for the person who is persistent and end up happily married. So it's up to you if you want to take the risk of spending time on someone with whom you might not end up or end up with someone with whom you have no connection.

[smackie9]

Give us an update, I'm curious.

[formerfriend]

So it's up to you if you want to take the risk of spending time on someone with whom you might not end up

I'm willing to spend that time, if it's not on her it's not on other women anyway. And I know her well enough to know that even if it doesn't work we would still be good friends.
I'm taking her out tomorrow, probably nothing will happen but I plan on making some subtle hint just to get into her head.

[formerfriend]

Oh well, a lot of things happened in the meantime but I won't go into detail. Let's just say that it didn't end as I wanted (getting with her), nor as I expected (being rejected).
She just didn't give me a chance to be alone with her and a couple of days ago at a party I learned that, without telling anyone, she got back with her former boyfriend a month ago. She also added that she's going to get pregnant within the next year, and I know she meant it.
Knowing that I've lost her forever when I got home I spilled my guts to her in the form of a very long drunken text message, I had nothing more to lose anyway. I also added that I want to stay friends.
The following day was pretty much horrible, waiting for her reply. She was kind enough to not ignore me and, not surprisingly, she wrote: "I don't know what to say, I hope we will indeed stay friends". I wrote her back thanking her for the reply and explaining that, knowing that I can't have her, all I needed now was to get free of the regret of never letting her know. She didn't reply.

I do intend to see her again, I believe it won't happen before a couple of weeks at least, or maybe even a month. Embarrassment at the moment is keeping me from seeing her (and I think she could feel the same), and when we will meet it will probably feel a little bit awkward, but I hope it will go away and we will be able to be friends for real.

I do not regret what I did, I feel much better now. I believe that if someone finds himself in the same situation (understanding that he has no chance and thus not having anything to lose, and a good level of friendship where she will understand you and not be a bitch) confessing is the best way to go to, at least, get rid of the regret.

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On a side note I have an issue of friendship now, I honestly believe that she's not ready to have a kid. She has no job (she's not getting paid for her training), no house of her own and she's only been living with that guy for 6 months before she refused his marriage proposal, they broke up in a bad way and then got together again (and they agreed on not living together now). I'm afraid that she's being blinded by her desire of becoming a mother out of having seen so many happy parents during her training as a midwife, and that she's putting herself in a situation which could end up in a very bad way.
But I can't tell her without making it sound like I have an hidden agenda.