So, is this what dating is really like...?

[Indestructible]

Dude, you've had 20 something years to practice this - if it was going to work, it would have by now. One of the rules for life: if what you are doing isn't working, try another way.

I guess, but... I mean, when you've never been good at this stuff at over 24 years old, can you really "learn" it from external sources? Seems like the kind of thing you need hands on experience with.

And how's that working for you? If you're making headway, then continue as you are. If not, refer to the rule above.

I know. :/ See, the thing that really, well, "scares" me is that I tend to develop "dependency" issues on things that feel comfortable to me, and I worry that therapy would become one of those things. I don't want it to become a crutch for me, I don't want to become one of those people that constantly has to run to a therapist because they just can't ever get a grip on their lives. Does that make sense?

I'm sure you and she had a good rapport, but did you have mutual chemistry? Did she want you as more than a friend?

I really felt like she did, up until she turned down my date. To be honest, that's really the only reason I was able to convince myself to ask her out, because for the first time in my life, I REALLY felt like I had made an actual connection with a girl, and that a girl actually wanted to date me.

[basilandthyme]

I guess, but... I mean, when you've never been good at this stuff at over 24 years old, can you really "learn" it from external sources? Seems like the kind of thing you need hands on experience with.

It's not either/or. You need to do both at the same time. Learn about the art of conversation and practice it as you go.

I know. :/ See, the thing that really, well, "scares" me is that I tend to develop "dependency" issues on things that feel comfortable to me, and I worry that therapy would become one of those things. I don't want it to become a crutch for me, I don't want to become one of those people that constantly has to run to a therapist because they just can't ever get a grip on their lives. Does that make sense?

A good psychologist will give you the skills to stand on your own two feet so that you no longer need the psychologist's help. A good psychologist will help you overcome your dependency issues. In short, a psychologist's job is to make themselves redundant.

I really felt like she did, up until she turned down my date. To be honest, that's really the only reason I was able to convince myself to ask her out, because for the first time in my life, I REALLY felt like I had made an actual connection with a girl, and that a girl actually wanted to date me.

Fair enough. But you do know this happens to pretty much everyone right? Almost all of us have fancied someone and then found the feeling wasn't mutual...and it's happened to most of us more than once. Dating is a numbers game and you just have to forget the ones you miss out on and get back out there. I hope you're not feeling like you're the only one this happens to.

Earlier in this thread, you made a comment to the effect of 'every time I like a girl, some other guy will steal her away. Just how many girls have you asked out?

[Indestructible]

A good psychologist will give you the skills to stand on your own two feet so that you no longer need the psychologist's help. A good psychologist will help you overcome your dependency issues. In short, a psychologist's job is to make themselves redundant.

How will I know if I've found a "good" psychologist, though?

Earlier in this thread, you made a comment to the effect of 'every time I like a girl, some other guy will steal her away. Just how many girls have you asked out?

Alright, well, not counting the large number of girls I've tried to meet online, the only girls I've asked out in person are the ones I actually felt attracted to, and again, I admit that number is fairly low. But to be honest, even though I don't feel personal attraction towards most women I meet to pursue them, I still tend to be observant about their "status", and I notice that most women I come across are either already with someone, or they have their sights set on some other guy. I really don't want to be someone's "second best" option.

And anyway, I'm just looking at things from a logical, statistical standpoint. Women have more options than men do, in terms of dating, and thus, men have to be ultra competitive to get the most worthwhile girls.

I feel like I have a lot to offer, and I feel like I would be a good partner to someone. But at the same time, I'm a bit of an anomaly. Considering women have their pick of the litter, so to speak, it's simply not enough to have some good qualities. Everyone wants someone that's as close to the "total package" as possible. Because I'm abnormally short, because I'm not physically attractive, that puts me at a huge disadvantage. Why should a woman settle for someone with good qualities but doesn't look like "a man", someone who can't physically protect her? Heck, guys who aren't so abnormally unattractive physically can even fake having good personalities and good qualities, if need be, just to get the girl. I can't fake being taller, I can't fake being better looking, I can't fake being closer to "average" in those regards than my current "way below average" status.

Again, people want someone that has the "whole package". Personality is the most liquid aspect of that. There are plenty of good people that are generally attractive. But again, there are also competitive guys who aren't so great that give the illusion that they are good people. And of course, there are plenty of women who will pursue and date guys with bad personalities under the (typically false) impression that they can "change" these men. But my most detrimental unattractive traits are things you can't "change", things you can't "fake", things you can't "cover up". So I'm immediately off the radar, because I don't even meet the most basic standards for overall attractiveness despite still having good qualities to offer.

[basilandthyme]

How will I know if I've found a "good" psychologist, though?

Assuming this isn't a rhetorical question....it's the same way you find a good plumber or builder or doctor or personal trainer: Ask around. Or if you can't find references just choose one and see if they do a good job. Honestly, it's not rocket science. Yes, one can waste time with a professional who's not up to par (and I've had good and bad of all of the above) but that's life. If you don't gel with a particular professional or they do a poor job, move to the next one.

Alright, well, not counting the large number of girls I've tried to meet online, the only girls I've asked out in person are the ones I actually felt attracted to, and again, I admit that number is fairly low. But to be honest, even though I don't feel personal attraction towards most women I meet to pursue them, I still tend to be observant about their "status", and I notice that most women I come across are either already with someone, or they have their sights set on some other guy. I really don't want to be someone's "second best" option.

And anyway, I'm just looking at things from a logical, statistical standpoint. Women have more options than men do, in terms of dating, and thus, men have to be ultra competitive to get the most worthwhile girls.

I feel like I have a lot to offer, and I feel like I would be a good partner to someone. But at the same time, I'm a bit of an anomaly. Considering women have their pick of the litter, so to speak, it's simply not enough to have some good qualities. Everyone wants someone that's as close to the "total package" as possible. Because I'm abnormally short, because I'm not physically attractive, that puts me at a huge disadvantage. Why should a woman settle for someone with good qualities but doesn't look like "a man", someone who can't physically protect her? Heck, guys who aren't so abnormally unattractive physically can even fake having good personalities and good qualities, if need be, just to get the girl. I can't fake being taller, I can't fake being better looking, I can't fake being closer to "average" in those regards than my current "way below average" status.

Again, people want someone that has the "whole package". Personality is the most liquid aspect of that. There are plenty of good people that are generally attractive. But again, there are also competitive guys who aren't so great that give the illusion that they are good people. And of course, there are plenty of women who will pursue and date guys with bad personalities under the (typically false) impression that they can "change" these men. But my most detrimental unattractive traits are things you can't "change", things you can't "fake", things you can't "cover up". So I'm immediately off the radar, because I don't even meet the most basic standards for overall attractiveness despite still having good qualities to offer.

To be honest, at this point in time I don't see that you would be a good partner. You could be in the future, but not while you've got all these unresolved issues. For what it's worth, I don't care about a man's looks or height (I've been the same height or taller than most men I've seriously dated). But I could never again date someone who makes as many excuses about life as you do. Heck, you can't even figure out how to choose a professional without moral support. Your negative attitude, blaming of others and refusal to seek help would be a deal breaker for me and for many others.

When I say that I'd never again date someone with these traits, I refer to my ex husband. He hid them well at first...but after a few years they became very obvious and largely contributed to the end of the marriage. Only broken girls want a man who needs his hand held when making life decisions.

Get yourself some help. I am sure that you're thoughtful and kind, but as you're discovering, that's not enough. You need to get the help required to stand on your own two feet. Show that you can be proactive and get better at the things in which you struggle. And THEN women will start to find you attractive.

[Indestructible]

For what it's worth, I don't care about a man's looks or height (I've been the same height or taller than most men I've seriously dated).

Sure, but 5'6" is considered "short" for a guy; so at 5'1", I'm basically an oddity. It's been implied to me by girls I've come across in the past that that's unattractive, because I couldn't "protect" a girl, I couldn't physically defend her, I would be useless for that kind of thing.

To be honest, at this point in time I don't see that you would be a good partner. You could be in the future, but not while you've got all these unresolved issues. But I could never again date someone who makes as many excuses about life as you do. Heck, you can't even figure out how to choose a professional without moral support. Your negative attitude, blaming of others and refusal to seek help would be a deal breaker for me and for many others.

When I say that I'd never again date someone with these traits, I refer to my ex husband. He hid them well at first...but after a few years they became very obvious and largely contributed to the end of the marriage. Only broken girls want a man who needs his hand held when making life decisions.

I see what you're saying, but in my defense, my "negative attitude" and me putting blame on stuff, that's not stuff I had on day one. Those are reactionary. The thoughts and feelings I have now are the results of me reacting to what the world around me has shown to me over the last 4-5 years. Besides, regardless of my issues, most people generally start dating at the age of 16. So at this point, I'm almost 9 years behind everyone else. Surely people that are in the 16-20 age range are not the most balanced, stable, issue-free people, so why is it that most normal people can manage to start dating and all that when they're that young, yet I'm almost 25 and still can't even get started? I just don't get it. It doesn't make any sense to me.

[smackie9]

If you keep getting put into the friends zone, you definitly need to make some changes in how you interact with women.

[midnightkisses]

Okay, yes, some dates are going to be a bit dull. You're not going to have a blast every single time you go out. To be fair, you did meet this girl just to have a casual sexual relationship, not a romantic relationship. Were there signs that you guys didn't weren't really going to click while texting with her? Now about dating in general. No, not all dates are fun, and some are a bit dull, or awkward. Sometimes it has to do with nerves, and other times it's because you and that person just don't click. It's a way to get to knlw each other. Just don't give up completely. We have all gone on our fair share of awkward and dull dates, and our fair share of good and interesting dates. One mistake most people make is only dating one person at a time. No, I do not mean being exclusive, I mean just going out on dates with that person. Meet different people, go out on a number of dates, and eventually you will find that one person who is good for you. If I had given up, I wouldn't have met the love of my life.