Not Sure What To Do With This Girl (Long, Please Read)

[searock]

Again, I was making a general statement, and you made it more specific by pointing out, it's only when you think it could be misinterpreted. The instance I brought up is the only time I've seen you use that verbage, so I drew the link.

I wasn't "making it more specific", I was simply replying to something you said. I wasn't talking about that instance specifically. You brought up both the general and the specific issue.

Feminine insults are insulting to men, because femininity in men is negative, per se

As I said, terms that mean "feminine" are used as insults towards women as well as men. This is because femininity is considered to be a negative thing per se (i.e. not only in men). Masculinity is only considered negative if it's in a female, it's not something negative per se. Femininity is negative per se. This is the difference.

Sorry, but I have no interest in the insults people use. Am I for fair pay, and fair everything else? Yes, and will gladly support any legislation that works to ensure that.

The thing is, if we want to eliminate patriarchy and racism and homophobia and all those things, we need to look at the whole picture. Language plays a very important role.

[BackUpOrGetStng]

I was replying to something you said, and I wasn't talking about that instance specifically. You brought up both the general and the specific issue.



As I said, terms that mean "feminine" are used as insults towards women as well as men. This is because femininity is per se considered to be a negative thing. Masculinity is only considered negative if it's in a female, it's not something negative per se. Femininity is negative per se. This is the difference.



The thing is, if we want to eliminate patriarchy and racism and homophobia and all those things, we need to look at the whole picture. Language plays a very important role.

Again. The only time I recall you using that verbage.

There are insults like prick and dick, that are an assault on a male who is being overly masculine.

Good luck eliminating ignorance. I don't have time for pipe dreams, little girl. Language plays such an insignificant role compared to the actions of people, that it is an afterthought considering the atrocities that occur everyday, particularly when you've got groups of girls posting pictures with captions, "Me and my bitches". Adding "some" to "women", is not going to change the horrible things which are perpetrated on a daily basis. The language is the last piece, as it is only an outward reflection.

[searock]

Again. The only time I recall you using that verbage.

Again, you brought up the general and the specific instance. Who cares anyway XD!

There are insults like prick and dick, that are an assault on a male who is being overly masculine.

They hold waaaay less insulting power compared to terms that mean "feminine". They just mean "asshole" or "jerk", if you call a guy a "dick" or a "prick", he will be way less insulted than if you call him a "sissy" or "pussy" or "cunt".

The language is the last piece, as it is only an outward reflection.

It is actually the way we shape our thoughts and mentality as a society, it is the foundation on which society is built.

[BackUpOrGetStng]

Well, what do pussy and cunt mean? They mean the same thing but for a woman. A man is more insulted because you're insulting his character AND calling him a woman.

In the US you can't say dick, prick, pussy, or cunt on TV...sounds equally insulting to me.

Thoughts shape language, and thoughts drive action. I say bitch and cunt all the time, and I don't discriminate. The language is not the underlying problem. Changing the way people think is the solution to the problems you are addressing, and as I said, good luck with your pipe dreams.

[BackUpOrGetStng]

You also still haven't answered why there is an Ask a Male/Female forum either. Is Loveforum being sexist by facilitating generalizing?

[searock]

Well, what do pussy and cunt mean? They mean the same thing but for a woman. A man is more insulted because you're insulting his character AND calling him a woman.

A man is more insulted because being called "feminine" is more insulting than anything else. I literally don't believe you actually don't see the difference.

Thoughts shape language, and thoughts drive action.

Language also shapes thoughts.

[searock]

You also still haven't answered why there is an Ask a Male/Female forum either.

Because loveadmin (or whoever built this site) put those forums there.

Not necessarily sexist, at worst they are promoting generalizations. Then again, there are some physiological issues that apply only to (biological) males or only to (biological) females, so it makes sense to ask specifically to one or the other group.

[BackUpOrGetStng]

A man is more insulted because being called "feminine" is more insulting than anything else. I can't believe you actually don't see the difference.

Language also shapes thoughts.

I'm curious, what undesirable traits are there about masculinity in general which are not shared by femininity?

I've seen several women break down and cry at work over something that happened at work, something that someone said to them at work, their workload, being anxious about getting their work done, thinking their boss is mad at them. A few I've seen do it more than once. Never once seen a man do it, or even come close. That is what calling a male, a bitch/cunt/pussy is referring to..being overly emotional to the point you resemble a woman crying over nothing and being a burden on everyone else. One broad got to go home because she was stressed, and the other admin assistant had to pick up her workload for the day.

I use the work example to illustrate that while men can be emotional, women are on another level with it, and much more apt to just breakdown without regard for the setting and annoy the **** out of everyone else they're around. Maybe it's hormonal or whatever, but it's definitely a behavior that is for all intents and purposes, exclusive to females.



Generalizations are not "bad", and many times, they can be quite accurate. The past isn't such a bad indicator of the present/future. Believe it or not, by listening to someone else's experience, you can gain insight into your own problems. I don't see why you think it's so detrimental or sexist, to seek some general understanding of the opposite gender by asking why might someone do something to get a different perspective than you can provide for yourself.

[searock]

I'm curious, what undesirable traits are there about masculinity in general which are not shared by femininity?

Being more prone to violence and anger for example. This has to do with the way male and female humans are brought up in most societies. Males are socialized in such a way that they should never display their emotions: the only emotion they are allowed to display is anger, eventually even via violence. Females on the other hand are supposed to not be angry or violent, and to display more emotions. This is why as adults females appear to be more emotional than adult males, who on the other hand appear to be more violence- and anger-prone than women. The reason for this kind of socialization may have had its uses in prehistoric times, when males were hunters/warriors (i.e. needed to be more impulsive and ready to fight) and females were gatherers/took care of domestic issues (i.e. needed to be more collaborative and emphatic with each other in order to guarantee strong social bonds). Nowadays there's no use for it anymore. Since society has evolved in such a way as to consider "superior" the masculine traits of impulsiveness and violent reactions, compared to the "inferior" feminine traits of emotionality and reflectiveness, it is not only useless to socialize children that way: it is also harmful, because it perpetuates the environment in which sexism is made possible. If males and females were socialized equally, with time the concepts of "femininity" and "masculinity" would lose their meaning, à la "bastard".

Believe it or not, by listening to someone else's experience, you can gain insight into your own problems.

I never stated otherwise.

I don't see why you think it's so detrimental or sexist, to seek some general understanding of the opposite gender by asking why might someone do something to get a different perspective than you can provide for yourself.

This is not what I find problematic. Generalizations that imply that *all* women or *all* men do something or are a certain way, are wrong and pointless and sometimes harmful (not necessarily sexist).

[searock]

To add: this kind of socialization of children will only stop when we stop considering masculine traits "superior" compared to "inferior" feminine traits, so that's where we should start. It's going to be a progressive change, it has already started.

[searock]

Also, women in the workplace often have to put up with crap that guys don't have to put up with: glass ceilings, sexual harassment, and so on. For example, if a woman does her job poorly, it will not reflect only on her, it will reflect on *all women*. People will say things like "never let a woman do a man's job", and so on. This puts an enormous amount of pressure on women's shoulders, that men will never have to deal with. It is not any particular man's fault, it's the system that is wrong. Things like these are definitely some of the reasons why some women appear to be more emotional than guys in some workplaces (even if it wasn't the case in your workplace, I'm talking in general).

[BackUpOrGetStng]

Okay, so come up with an insult for an angry, violent person...but I'm pretty sure all the names we've discussed cover that.

I dunno. Starnique's story from earlier sounded pretty angry and violent. I have plenty of male friends who have cried in front me, and it wasn't a burden at all. I don't think there's a problem with showing emotion, and I do frequently. It's the hysterical, ridiculous, irrational shit in public, that's humiliating to yourself and those associated with you that I'm referring to. Not that men aren't without that too, I've just never seen it come out at work before. With chicks all bets are off.

I'm very interested to know where you work and what you do. As I've told you before there are women in senior management at every place I've worked, and in a couple cases they were predominant..in the male-dominated IT field. I just started a new job last week, and 4 of the 6 department heads I've met with so far are women. I have another job that 3 of the 4 people I report to(3 Directors and a VP), and they all outrank the one man. I do get paid more than any of them, but I'm a contractor, and you'd have no argument from any of them that I'm smarter. Of the 6 multibillion dollar organizations(the 7th is getting close) I've worked for, I've answered to a woman directly or above my supervisor at every place I've been, in most cases, multiple women. I work in a very collaborative industry where you are judged on your contributions. If you got work, you got work, and you can demand what you want. I'm going to talk to my mom about this too, she's in the same field.

Sexual harrassment, sure, you'll get no argument from me that HARASSMENT is sexist. If you were preaching about how bad sexual harassment is that'd be one thing, but you're pissing and moaning about words that aren't even directed at you.

[searock]

Okay, so come up with an insult for an angry, violent person...but I'm pretty sure all the names we've discussed cover that.

Which insults? Dick and Prick don't cover them at all. They aren't half as bad as Pussy and Cunt. The latter are far more insulting, because they mean "feminine", and feminine traits are considered inferior.

I dunno. Starnique's story from earlier sounded pretty angry and violent.

That's one single example, and you must admit it's not typical. I've never seen a woman hit anyone violently, while I have seen several men hit someone violently.

I have plenty of male friends who have cried in front me, and it wasn't a burden at all. I don't think there's a problem with showing emotion, and I do frequently. It's the hysterical, ridiculous, irrational shit in public, that's humiliating to yourself and those associated with you that I'm referring to. Not that men aren't without that too, I've just never seen it come out at work before. With chicks all bets are off.

I already explained the reason. Women are socialized in such a way that it is OK for them to display emotions in public, men are socialized in such a way that it is not OK to display emotions in public. It's one thing to cry in front of a close friend, it's quite another to cry in front of people you aren't close with. Women are socialized in such a way that it is normal and even sometimes expected for them to display emotions, for men it's the opposite. Most men vent *all* their emotions via anger and/or violence.

There is not one "better" way of dealing with emotions, be it crying "hysterically" or yelling and hitting something/one. Society believes that the latter is superior and better than the former and it associates the latter with masculinity and the former with femininity. This is sexism.

As far as your workplace goes, you already mentioned that it's a heaven-on-earth for women that want a career, that's why I specified that I wasn't referring to your workplace but was talking in general. In my country things are as I described, even worse actually (for example at any job interview a woman will inevitably be asked "do you have kids? do you plan on having any?" and her likeliness of being hired will depend on the answers to those questions).

Sexual harrassment, sure, you'll get no argument from me that HARASSMENT is sexist. If you were preaching about how bad sexual harassment is that'd be one thing, but you're pissing and moaning about words that aren't even directed at you.

I am including all forms of sexism in the workplace. I mentioned, as examples, glass ceilings, sexual harassment, the pressure that is put on women whose job will reflect not only on them but on *all* women.

As for the importance of language, I already discussed that.

[BackUpOrGetStng]

It's not that society believes violence is superior, but who can argue with it's effectiveness as a tactic to get what you want?

Scenes like what Starnique described are a daily occurrence on Maury, Jerry Springer, and Steve Wilkos.

It is not socially acceptable for people to be crying hysterically about some bullshit in public(where I'm from) either. You get looked at sideways.

I don't think it's limited to my work place, though it may be limited to my country. Sounds like your country blows. Consider moving.

[Starnique]

Just to clarify, I wasn't embarrassed by my behavior. I was like 18 and back then I had a lot issues. If a guy said something so disrespectful to me now, idk what I'd do. The person who throws these nasty comments is no better then the person who goes off on them. They both look stupid and tacky at the moment. Provoking people and expecting them to cry about it...is just silly and even if my feelings is hurt over what people say which happens more often then not, I'm not going to show it . I have thick skin so I don't break down over certain things. I'm quiet and nice but don't get in my personal space. You make it sound like im violent. Anyway, I see more irrational women then I do men. Women are way more emotional. I see more women acting that way then men.