A skill I just don't get (but wish I could) - The full on cold approach.

[TheEvilJester]

I have just never quite been able to grasp the skill of the "cold approach," so to speak. Unfortunately, with little to no dating prospects these days and online dating basically being a complete waste of my time, I am beginning to think I'll have to learn to master it or else learn to be content with being alone until the day I die. Even more unfortunately, it just seems completely foreign to me.

I think part of my problem is that it is sort of just not me, so to speak. In other words, I'm not the type of guy to just go around asking out tons of random women hoping at least some will actually say yes. To be perfectly honest, I kind of don't WANT to do that. I tend to prefer to get to know a gal first to decide if she seems like somebody I'd want to date. Heck, even when I have a crush on a girl, my very first desire isn't to ask her out, it's to start to become friendly with her so I can determine if I even want to ask her out. But, I am beginning to think maybe I need to learn this cold approach.

What do I mean exactly? I mean seeing some random girl (or guy, if that is your thing), deciding you might want to get to know them and/or ask them out, and thereby just going up to them and striking up a conversation without the slightest icebreaker. I mean, it would be different if, for example, I saw her reading a book I loved. That would give me a ready made icebreaker. Or, if I saw her wearing a shirt for a movie I loved. Again, there's your icebreaker right there.

What if it is just some random girl I always see at the gym? Or some random girl on my train? Or some girl I see while food shopping or at the mall? The idea of going up to a complete stranger with no pre-determined idea of anything to say is just completely foreign to me... and I'm starting to think maybe I am missing out on potential opportunities because I don't know how to do this.

[Wakeup]

Heck, even when I have a crush on a girl, my very first desire isn't to ask her out, it's to start to become friendly with her

Well, I've told you this before, my friend but ^^^ that's your problem. You need to quickly ask your "crush" out on a date and then make it known in actions (holding hands, arm around, going in for the kiss at the end of the first date etc) that you are seeing her because you want to be more then her mall-buddy.

I think you'd do well on a site like meetmarketadventures.com where you meet singles on group activities rather then trying to email women on some dating site where the ladies have tons of emails coming in from every guy within a 50 mile radius.

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Adding: You have a good sense of humour and you appear to be a good guy. If you don't like meetmarketadventures then how about joining a co-ed sports team like baseball, volleyball or even darts or something where you'll get to know your team mates and they'll get to know you.

[basilandthyme]

You would have read these comments from me a number of times, but I'm going to repeat them: I think that this approach is high risk/low success. At least, it wouldn't work on me

If you were at my gym, you'd have a much better chance if you smiled at me. If I smile back, say Hi. And say Hi the next time you see me and introduce yourself for a small chat. If that works well, ask me out the next time we have a chat.

With this in mind, I strongly echo Wakeup's suggestion of getting to know women in semi-social situations like sports or hobby groups. It's so much easier if you have a common interest and an introduction.

[SuperHappyTime1]

Yea, the cold approach actually worked pretty well for me once. Or, it would have if she didn't tell me she already had a boyfriend. Was it awkward that it was our first work-shift on the floor at the same time? Yea, but we were friends after that.

[megvoh]

Would be hella easier to cold approach at a house party, picnic with a large grouping, a beach day with a large outing, park outing, if you have a dog at a dog park.
Maybe even at your job if you are in some kind of customer direct servicing employ. Don't know what hobbies you have or like or what type of job you have, that would help to know.

[TheEvilJester]

First off, thanks so much, everybody. I appreciate all those who lend their thoughts and advice. You guys rock!

Well, I've told you this before, my friend but ^^^ that's your problem. You need to quickly ask your "crush" out on a date and then make it known in actions (holding hands, arm around, going in for the kiss at the end of the first date etc) that you are seeing her because you want to be more then her mall-buddy.

Yeah, I think maybe you are right. Maybe the full on "cold approach" just isn't my thing, but I also think I need to maybe just give it a shot and change my approach a little. It may not feel 100% me, but I think you may be right that I just need to ask girls out and use the actual dates to determine whether it is worth continuing, rather than hoping to get to know them first. Granted, if a situation happened to present itself where I happened to become friends with a girl first and then decide to ask her out, that would still be preferable (for me anyway), but when that isn't the case maybe I should just go straight to date mode first.

Funny enough (and this may not seem like much, but for me it is HUGE that I can say this) I'm not too worried about the actual date, IF I can actually land it. I've actually come a long way and trust myself to be able to be fun and outgoing. It's just a matter of getting the date in the first place. ....Well, okay so I'm not 100% confident in myself. The whole when to make physical contact thing is also a little foreign to me. I don't want to overdo it/do it too soon and seem like a creep, yet at the same time don't want to avoid doing it at all and seem like I'm not interested.

I think you'd do well on a site like meetmarketadventures.com where you meet singles on group activities rather then trying to email women on some dating site where the ladies have tons of emails coming in from every guy within a 50 mile radius.

Thanks. I will give that a try. I think you could actually be right. I do so much better in group activities. I even noticed that about myself recently as result of a gaming group I am in. I recently noticed how more outgoing I am among that group. We have new people stop in from time to time (even women) and I'm not even in the least bit shy. I'm in my comfort zone among my friends, so I am able to me my best, fun loving, goofy self and people really seem to enjoy it. It was funny, actually, because I didn't even really notice it at first, it just sort of happened naturally. One day I stepped back and noticed "Holy crap! I've been engaging complete strangers, even women, as though they have always been part of the group without the least bit of shyness." I know that doesn't seem like much, but for me it was a big deal. Anyway, bottom line, you may be right. Group activities would probably be better for me because it would allow me to be more open and get to know people first without the pressure of having dating in mind right off the bat.

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Adding: You have a good sense of humour and you appear to be a good guy. If you don't like meetmarketadventures then how about joining a co-ed sports team like baseball, volleyball or even darts or something where you'll get to know your team mates and they'll get to know you.

Wow! Thanks, Wakeup. I appreciate the kind words. Also glad to hear others appreciate my sense of humor. I have basically two modes when it comes to my sense of humor. My humor tends to either be extremely goofy, or a little dark. LOL! I, of course, know when each is and is not appropriate, but it just happens to be what I dig. Funny enough, when I stop being so down on myself for a second, I start noticing that other peeps really seem to enjoy that in me.

You would have read these comments from me a number of times, but I'm going to repeat them: I think that this approach is high risk/low success. At least, it wouldn't work on me

If you were at my gym, you'd have a much better chance if you smiled at me. If I smile back, say Hi. And say Hi the next time you see me and introduce yourself for a small chat. If that works well, ask me out the next time we have a chat.

With this in mind, I strongly echo Wakeup's suggestion of getting to know women in semi-social situations like sports or hobby groups. It's so much easier if you have a common interest and an introduction.

Yeah, I was actually sort of thinking of you because I knew you kind of agree with my sentiments on this. I don't know why, but the whole idea of the cold approach just feels icky to me. Like, I feel like it makes me look like just one of a million other guys who have probably hit on her. (Her, right now, being this hypothetical female human I try talking to.) It isn't like they can know this, but that could not be further from the truth. I am not like that at all, but you can't really portray that in the cold approach.

You know, in some of my better days lately, I actually have noticed that women do smile at me more. Or maybe they did in the past too and I was just too lost in my darkness to notice. Don't get me wrong. I know more often than not they are just smiling to be polite. Still, I have been noticing that more often these days, and have started to again now that I've gotten myself out of a recent funk I had been in.

Yea, the cold approach actually worked pretty well for me once. Or, it would have if she didn't tell me she already had a boyfriend. Was it awkward that it was our first work-shift on the floor at the same time? Yea, but we were friends after that.

Good to hear this from your experience. It is weird, really, because I was almost expecting to come back here and see a bunch of people telling me to just suck it up and do it. LOL! I am kind of surprised (pleasantly so) to see that others are agreeing that the cold approach isn't really the best bet. I actually feel like this has helped me out. Whether I can bring myself to make anything of it remains to be seen, but I will do my best.

Thank you, everybody.

[megvoh]

You forgot my post.

[TheEvilJester]

Oh crap! I'm so sorry. You must have posted while I was typing. Hold that though.... Edit coming....

EDIT:

Would be hella easier to cold approach at a house party, picnic with a large grouping, a beach day with a large outing, park outing, if you have a dog at a dog park.
Maybe even at your job if you are in some kind of customer direct servicing employ. Don't know what hobbies you have or like or what type of job you have, that would help to know.

Yeah, I definitely agree with you there. Unfortunately, I am not much the party type. Still, in some other social outing, it would probably be much easier for me.

I don't have a dog, but do love dogs. I'd love one, but I work in the city and get home late, so at least at this time it wouldn't really be fair to little Evil Jester McBarkington.

Work hasn't really proven a viable option to me mostly because I don't see many women beyond those in my direct department, and even any I do somehow always seem to already be married/engaged/dating somebody. Hobbies could be helpful, though, but beyond the gaming group I already attend, I'm not sure what else I'd do. I will have to come up with ideas, because that actually could be a great way for me personally to meet women more comfortably.

[megvoh]

lol that's okay but wanted to let you know you had another reply. Figured we cross posted, by the time stamps and how long your reply was.

Can do book clubs night, they hold those social groups all over, if you are an avid reader, also pubs have fun trivia nights, great way to chat up girls too.
Do you have a mate with a dog you could puppy sit for a Saturday afternoon, sort of a chat em up dog, isn't a lie you can tell the girls you are pup sitting, isn't yours but you love dogs.

What would your top three things be that makes you uncomfortable chatting up women?
Can do practice runs where you don't care if rejection occurs to work up a tolerance, if that makes any sense? Even if you have to wait at a bus stop, can practice or in line at the cashier.

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I chatted up one guy at a shop because he walked past and his cologne smelled devine and I was asking him what are you wearing when you walked past I got a whiff and just had to ask you because you smelled great.
He smiled, laughed a bit and we talked for a few minutes, nothing came of it other then a nice interaction but I still did it even if to most that would be awkward.

[TheEvilJester]

lol that's okay but wanted to let you know you had another reply. Figured we cross posted, by the time stamps and how long your reply was.

Can do book clubs night, they hold those social groups all over, if you are an avid reader, also pubs have fun trivia nights, great way to chat up girls too.
Do you have a mate with a dog you could puppy sit for a Saturday afternoon, sort of a chat em up dog, isn't a lie you can tell the girls you are pup sitting, isn't yours but you love dogs.

I do enjoy reading, though I don't get as much time to do so as I would like. Even so, a book club could maybe be a good idea. The trivia night sounds groovy too, though I don't really dig the bar scene all that much because I don't drink. I have nothing against those that do, I just personally chose not to drink. I'll have to come up with other ideas as well, I'm just not really sure what the heck they would be. I've got my hobbies here and there, but most are solo things that wouldn't really help me all that much in meeting people, much less women. I need to think of some more social hobbies that would interest me, I'm just coming up blank right now.

What would your top three things be that makes you uncomfortable chatting up women?
Can do practice runs where you don't care if rejection occurs to work up a tolerance, if that makes any sense? Even if you have to wait at a bus stop, can practice or in line at the cashier.

My top three? That's actually a really good question. I've never really thought of it like that. I'm not even sure I can necessarily come up with three, but let me think...

1) Honestly, my main concern is that, in trying to talk to them, they'll instantly write me off as some kind of creep. In whatever form that takes really, whether they politely respond but it seems obvious they just want me to go away, whether they completely ignore me, whether they actually say something rude. Anything like that. Believe it or not, though, it is NOT the possible rejection that worries me. I mean, don't get me wrong. It would suck to be rejected, but I can live with that. I'd be embarrassed for a bit, I'd feel down for a bit, and I'd quickly forget it and move on. It's not really the rejection that worries me. For some reason the concern I cannot seem to get past is that initial awkwardness of actually getting into a conversation. I sort of get in my own head and think that, best case scenario, I'm going to seem like a complete weirdo and they'll be wondering why the Hell some random weirdo is trying to talk to them..... or worst case scenario, they'll instantly write me off as just being yet another in a line of a million guys who have asked them out.

Even thinking about it, I'm not sure I really have many other concerns that are all that big. Right now, the only other thing I can think of is...

2) The follow-through, so to speak. In other words, okay.... pretend for a second I actually get up the nerve and talk to the girl. I get a little nervous about A) how to continue that particular conversation so it isn't just a simple "Hi, I'm Evil Jester," "Hi, I'm Random Girl." "Okay, bye now." LOL! B) If that first conversation actually goes well, what should I do from there? Ask her out? Ask for her phone number? Give her my phone number? Wait until I see her again (if it is somebody I see often enough) and try talking again? This, I think, is another biggie that kind of holds me back because I feel like even if I DO get up the nerve to talk to a girl, I'm not sure I'll know what to do with it/how to follow-up, and if I make all that effort to finally get myself "in the game" so to speak only for it be a complete waste because I don't know how to continue it along, then it would be pointless.

It is psychological, I guess, which is my problem. I am trying to work on it, it is just really hard. I kind of waited too long because, for a long time in my young life I didn't even realize anything was different about me in that respect, so I just never bothered to learn how to socialize very well. Then, in much of my young adult life I was in a relationship (that turned out to be a big mistake) so I didn't really need to learn how to talk to/ask out women anyway. Now I'm determined to finally learn it, but it is all just so daunting.

I really appreciate your thoughts and advice, megvoh. I also appreciate your story. Though, somehow I think coming from a guy saying something like that to a woman, it might seem a little creepy. "Oooo! You smell good." LOL!

EDIT:

I actually did think of a [URL=https://www.loveforum.net/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3]#3[/URL] . It is sort of related to [URL=https://www.loveforum.net/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1[/URL] , but nonetheless...

3) I am worried that even if I do actually get up the nerve to talk to a girl.... Even if she does actually talk to me in return ... Even if she doesn't do/say anything that makes it seems obvious she is being polite but really just wants me to buzz off..., My concern is that maybe she IS just being polite. That I'd take the conversation seeming to go well as encouragement and keep trying to talk to her only for her to just be annoyed that I'm bothering her again and again, but still not saying anything. In other words, like I'm thinking "This is great, this girl and I are really hitting it off," but she's secretly thinking "Why is this loser talking to me AGAIN?! I don't want to be mean, but I just want him to go away!"

[megvoh]

You did give that a good think over, did it help you thinking on that and writing it out, did it clarify anything for you?

Have you checked your area for any book clubs or trivia nights close by? Some other social clubs do trivia nights too, how about a speed date setting to practice? Couldn't hurt and might meet a girl there you click on with?

On your [URL=https://www.loveforum.net/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1[/URL] - Why would you think you would be seen as a creep? If nice, funny, kind you wouldn't. And if not aggressive. Plus do it in a setting where you are both standing and waiting, in line at shop, bank amusement park, for food whatever. They are as captive as you then.

[URL=https://www.loveforum.net/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=2]#2[/URL] . Talk about your surroundings if stuck, that always works and something you both are having in common in the moment, that includes weather and so on, or if a movie concession line talk about movie.
I've only asked for a guys # once in a random one off meeting and he gave it and all I said to get it was " Well you were a cheer to talk with, would you ever like to do something some point in the week, with me or in a group?" Give me your # and I'll give over mine and I'll text you about it? " and he did, but only because he must have liked the chat too and I was forceful but not to forceful, you know.

[URL=https://www.loveforum.net/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3]#3[/URL] - But to accept a # off a stranger isn't someone being polite is someone as interested imo. So is someone smiling or laughing with you.

Try the practice runs I mention and keep updating your thread. GL once you lose the real worries you have you'll breeze through, you will.
Cheers.

[basilandthyme]

I've been away skiing for the weekend, back now.

Megvoh is on fire here, so I can't add much. But as someone who smiles at and talks to strangers, let me give you a couple of tips.

When a stranger smiles, it's not because they are being polite - it's because they are friendly and open. Of course, this doesn't meant that they are single or want to date the recipient - it's more a signal that they are not the closed type who will reject conversation. If you're going to chat with anyone, a smiler is a good place to start. Unless the smiler is walking in the other direction - then it's just weird.

Agree that talking about your surroundings is a great way to continue conversation. I find "how do you know (the host)?" is a good one. Or "how did you get into this hobby?" if you're at a hobby thing. At a trivia night "I haven't been here before, are you a local?" At the gym, you could comment "you're working hard today!" or "I'm new - still finding my way around here"

You're wondering how to tell if someone is genuinely interested in talking with you vs being polite. The way to tell is by gauging their enthusiasm for holding up their end of the conversation. If they are giving you one word answers, they are being polite. If they give detailed answers and ask you stuff too, then they are genuinely interested.

Another thought on where to meet people: you say that you're a gamer. Are you also interested in pop culture? Conventions would be a great place to meet people. (showing my nerdy side here) If you put in a load of effort on a costume, lots of people will come up to you. But even if you just be your normal self, you can try and strike up conversation at a stall. (Smile, comment on merchandise, see if they respond in a friendly way). This can be hit and miss, but at the very least, it's a great way to practice small talk with people who have common interests.

[TheEvilJester]

Oh my God! You have to be kidding me! I had this whole, long response typed up to megvoh's post and it just disappeared! Now I want to kill somebody! UGH! Okay.... starting over... I don't have the patience now to recreate it entirely, but I'll hit the main points I covered.

You did give that a good think over, did it help you thinking on that and writing it out, did it clarify anything for you?

Have you checked your area for any book clubs or trivia nights close by? Some other social clubs do trivia nights too, how about a speed date setting to practice? Couldn't hurt and might meet a girl there you click on with?

On your [URL=https://www.loveforum.net/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1[/URL] - Why would you think you would be seen as a creep? If nice, funny, kind you wouldn't. And if not aggressive. Plus do it in a setting where you are both standing and waiting, in line at shop, bank amusement park, for food whatever. They are as captive as you then.

[URL=https://www.loveforum.net/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=2]#2[/URL] . Talk about your surroundings if stuck, that always works and something you both are having in common in the moment, that includes weather and so on, or if a movie concession line talk about movie.
I've only asked for a guys # once in a random one off meeting and he gave it and all I said to get it was " Well you were a cheer to talk with, would you ever like to do something some point in the week, with me or in a group?" Give me your # and I'll give over mine and I'll text you about it? " and he did, but only because he must have liked the chat too and I was forceful but not to forceful, you know.

[URL=https://www.loveforum.net/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3]#3[/URL] - But to accept a # off a stranger isn't someone being polite is someone as interested imo. So is someone smiling or laughing with you.

Try the practice runs I mention and keep updating your thread. GL once you lose the real worries you have you'll breeze through, you will.
Cheers.

I have not yet looked into other hobbies, book clubs, etc. I've been so busy lately I have not had the chance. I'm also honestly not sure how you even find something like that. I definitely do want to try to look for stuff like that soon, though. If I get too comfortable with not bothering to find anybody I know I will run the risk of never getting over all this crap. Considering how I feel about all this now, I cannot even begin to imagine turning around 5, 10, 15 years down the road to discover I am still dealing with it.

As far as me being convinced people with think I am a creep, I guess it is mostly a mental thing on my part. The thing is, knowing that doesn't really help me any. Intellectually I know that is silly, but in my mind I feel like women are just going to instantly dismiss me as a creep, almost as though it is their default reaction because they already get hit on all the time. For that, and I guess other reasons, it just sort of feels icky to me, the idea of chatting somebody up and then instantly asking them on a date. I get this idea in my mind like I make myself look like just any other a-hole guy who asks out every girl with a pulse. That's not me AT ALL, but I feel like I'll look like that by just asking out some random stranger, which is part of why I've always been hesitant to do it.

As for just talking about anything.... the problem is that doesn't work for me. I know I am probably overthinking it, but I'm not Mr. Social Butterfly, so I sort of NEED to overthink it at least a little. Don't get me wrong, I'm not crazy like I need to have this giant script in a binder that memorize of topics to bring up, what to say, how to respond to what she may say.... LOL! At the same time, though, if I expected myself to just wing it, this would be the conversation:

Me: Hi, I'm Evil Jester.
Girl: Hi, I'm Randometta.
Me: Uhhhhmmmm.... Hey, so how about this weather?

I feel like she'd just be left wondering why the Hell this random weirdo is talking to her about the weather. I know myself and if I don't at least have some kind of reason to start talking to her, my lack of confidence will be ridiculously obvious.

All of this is really what has me stumped/stuck the most. The idea of just trying to talk to a completely random stranger. Thing is, with my complete lack of prospects these days, it is starting to feel like that would be my only way to meet somebody. I do occasionally see women randomly that I might think "Hey, I'd enjoy getting to know her" but being too shy, it's just never seemed worth it it bother. Now, though, it isn't like I am meeting women in any setting more conducive to getting to know them better naturally anyway, so it seems my only hope these days.

I've been away skiing for the weekend, back now.

Megvoh is on fire here, so I can't add much. But as someone who smiles at and talks to strangers, let me give you a couple of tips.

When a stranger smiles, it's not because they are being polite - it's because they are friendly and open. Of course, this doesn't meant that they are single or want to date the recipient - it's more a signal that they are not the closed type who will reject conversation. If you're going to chat with anyone, a smiler is a good place to start. Unless the smiler is walking in the other direction - then it's just weird.

I suppose that makes sense. I have been trying to tell myself things like that lately, because it is too easy for me to fall back into my negativity. Don't get me wrong. I'm not an idiot always thinking "Woah! That girl is into me!" LOL! But, when I get smiles now and then, even when it is because I held the door for a gal or let her go ahead of me or something along those lines (things I do just as a default because I feel it is the gentlemanly thing to do), I try to remind myself that if I were such a scary monster like I sometimes think, she wouldn't have smiled at me at all. It's a sign, at least, that if I tried talking to that particular girl there is at least a decent chance she'd be receptive.

Agree that talking about your surroundings is a great way to continue conversation. I find "how do you know (the host)?" is a good one. Or "how did you get into this hobby?" if you're at a hobby thing. At a trivia night "I haven't been here before, are you a local?" At the gym, you could comment "you're working hard today!" or "I'm new - still finding my way around here"

Okay, but the thing is all of those scenarios give me a ready made icebreaker. I actually sort of trust myself more to feel like I could do a decent job with that. It's just, those situations don't seem to exist for me these days, leading to me thinking I am going to have to start to learn to talk to random women even when I have no inherent icebreaker.

I'll give you a for example. There's these two girls I often see on my morning train. I've noticed them for a while, but I had been kind of lost in my own darkness for a while and didn't care to really notice anybody. Coming out of my darkness, for some reason there is something I can't explain about them that just intrigues me. (One of them a little more than the other, but I do find them both interesting.) Sometimes that is just the way it is. Believe it or not, as much of a hopeless romantic as I am, I'm NOT one to normally get silly random crushes on people I barely know. Sometimes, you just can't even say yourself what it is that catches your eye about somebody. There's probably dozens of attractive women on my train. I'm human, I DO notice them, but normally I just leave it at that. For whatever reason these two particularly intrigued me in such a way that I actually found myself specifically wishing I could talk to them/get to know them better. The thing is, we are on the train. That is really not in any way a conducive environment to talking to random strangers. People are tired, they are just waking up, they are getting to work, they tend to want to be left alone. Also doesn't help that myself and these gals happen to use the "Quiet Ride Car." That's a car specifically designated for... just that.... being quiet.

Furthermore, I didn't notice them because they were wearing a shirt for a band/movie/tv show I like, or because they were reading a cool looking horror book or anything like that. I can't explain why in particular I noticed them. So, again, example of having no real ice breaker. They are just an example I can give you. To be honest, I don't think I'll ever bother to talk to them. I think it is just expecting too much of myself. I would love to, but it just seems like too much to expect myself to be that bold.

Another thought on where to meet people: you say that you're a gamer. Are you also interested in pop culture? Conventions would be a great place to meet people. (showing my nerdy side here) If you put in a load of effort on a costume, lots of people will come up to you. But even if you just be your normal self, you can try and strike up conversation at a stall. (Smile, comment on merchandise, see if they respond in a friendly way). This can be hit and miss, but at the very least, it's a great way to practice small talk with people who have common interests.

That's actually a really good idea. I did recently go to a horror convention, though I didn't talk to any random women. I should do stuff like that more often and try chatting up some women. Especially if they have a really cool costume or something like that.

I really appreciate everybody who is lending some thoughts and advice. I don't really know if I will ever be able to get myself to make the necessary effort, but I intend to try. All of your advice really does help me. I hope my back and forth does not give the faulty impression that I'm ignoring/dismissing your advice. That is not AT ALL what I am intending. I am just trying to talk it through to try to learn how I can make it work for me. I'm a pretty uniquely and ridiculously shy person, so advice that comes naturally you some of you is practically like speaking another language for me. LOL!

Again, though, I really appreciate all of your help. You group are the best!