Is my girlfriend refuses to sign a pre-nup, should we not get married?

[dontaskme]

No, agreed, I'm not arguing that money is more important than love. I'm just debating the idea that $200,000 is not a significant amount of money. Not to mention, that is money he earned and saved since long before the two of them were together. I think that is enough money that he has a right to want to protect it. I don't think the idea is that $200,000 is worth more to him than his love for her. I mean, that certainly isn't MY intention at all.

If you don't love and trust your partner I would hope you wouldn't be marrying them in the first place. Most people love and trust their partner when they get married..... and yet these days more marriages end in divorce than don't (at least in the US). If, God forbid, two people do get divorced, they are going to wind up having to divide their assets anyway. The intended idea behind a prenup is that you take care of those decisions ahead of time when it isn't with the confused feelings and hurt emotions of going through a divorce.

The idea/attitude about a prenup shouldn't be that it is like saying the marriage WILL end. Again, the idea should just be that it protects both parties IN CASE it does.

$200,000 is not a significant amount to warrant a pre-nup and that is why the girlfriend is pissed off at him. If he was worth a couple of mil, or he owned a business that consistently makes money over the years, or if he has kids that he would want to inherit the money, then yes, maybe the girl will understand his need to protect his asset but not a couple of hundred thousand, it's a slap on her face to even suggest it.

[melancholia]

Not in my world, it's not significant enough to warrant a pre-nup (which isn't even necessary if he keeps it under his name). If the girl is apprehensive about a pre-nup, certainly $200,00 is not worthy of losing someone he loves. You can't put a monetary value on love.

Immediately before saying you can't put a price on love, you said $200K isn't enough to warrant a prenup... You just obliterated your point right here. $200K is a lot of money to some people, and for others, but saying "you can't put a price on love", isn't what a prenup is about. A prenup has absolutely nothing to do with love. It is designed to protect both individuals' assets they accumulated prior to getting married. Someone may not have $200K in the bank, but they may own property, or a business, or something they have worked for before getting married that they want to keep as theirs, should their marriage end in divorce, which chances are higher that it will. Since none of us are family lawyers, we shouldn't be advising anyone of whether or not they should get a prenup, since none of us are in an expert position to offer legal advice. If you aren't into getting a prenup, then don't bother looking into it, but it's pretty irresponsible not to do your own thorough research on it before you decide to go one way or the other, especially if you are being pressured by your SO not to get one.

[dontaskme]

Immediately before saying you can't put a price on love, you said $200K isn't enough to warrant a prenup... You just obliterated your point right here. $200K is a lot of money to some people, and for others, but saying "you can't put a price on love", isn't what a prenup is about. A prenup has absolutely nothing to do with love. It is designed to protect both individuals' assets they accumulated prior to getting married. Someone may not have $200K in the bank, but they may own property, or a business, or something they have worked for before getting married that they want to keep as theirs, should their marriage end in divorce, which chances are higher that it will. Since none of us are family lawyers, we shouldn't be advising anyone of whether or not they should get a prenup, since none of us are in an expert position to offer legal advice. If you aren't into getting a prenup, then don't bother looking into it, but it's pretty irresponsible not to do your own thorough research on it before you decide to go one way or the other, especially if you are being pressured by your SO not to get one.

No, you can't put a price on love but obviously, the OP does so he might as well increase the price tag on his pre-nup agreement so any woman he intends to marry will not find it insulting to sign a contract prior to saying "I do".

Once again for those ignorant enough about the law, any pre-marital property, as long as you keep them separate property during your marriage, remains to be yours and yours alone and is not subject to equitable distribution in case of divorce. Now OP, unless you have intellectual property, meaning you're smart enough and hold a job that can potentially earn you hundreds or millions of $$$ a year during marriage (cause your future wife will be entitled to half of your asset and business), like if your a CEO, a lawyer or a doctor, let the idea of pre-nup go, it isn't worth it breaking up with this girl especially if you really love her.

Melancholia, keep your day job whatever it is and try not to advise on legal matters. BTW, my father and brothers are lawyers... Oh, and my fiancé is a lawyer. My fiancé and I have more than ten times the OP's asset but we're not signing a pre-nup cause we know the law, if that makes sense to the OP.

[Gladimeir15]

Well as a woman I can understand her reaction... Maybe she felt that you have no trust on her but we are now on the new era that the issue on pre nup is no longer an issue. Just give her ample time to decipher on things and eventually she will come to realization that prenup issue should not hinder in your relationship most especially on the idea of getting married... Just have patience and if not elongate your patience more.

[TheEvilJester]

$200,000 is not a significant amount to warrant a pre-nup and that is why the girlfriend is pissed off at him. If he was worth a couple of mil, or he owned a business that consistently makes money over the years, or if he has kids that he would want to inherit the money, then yes, maybe the girl will understand his need to protect his asset but not a couple of hundred thousand, it's a slap on her face to even suggest it.

On that, we will just have to respectfully agree to disagree. Again, at least in the United States, the vast majority of people will never see that kind of money in their entire lifetime. It would take most people YEARS to earn that kind of money.... and even then that is assuming they had literally NO expenses. Which is obviously not realistic.

I very much appreciate your opinion on this topic, though. I think, especially in a divided topic like this, it is very important to be able to see views from both sides. I think your interpretation of a prenup is exactly the kind of stigma prenups have that I've been talking about. Right or wrong, that is the opinion a lot of people have. That is is putting a price tag on love, and that is why it seems so insulting to many people.

The thing is, in my personal opinion, the point of a prenup ISN'T to put a price tag on love. Again, it is just about fairly protecting both parties. Divorces can get nasty, and believe it or not, they CAN wind up being very unfair to one or the other party. Thankfully mine was very smooth and amicable. However, there are some pretty awful horror stories out there about divorces from Hell.

The idea of a prenup is just to save both people from having to go through that if, God forbid, the marriage does end. Or at least that is what the point of it SHOULD be. Believe me, I'm sure there ARE some greedy bastards out there who DO use them for selfish reasons. I just don't necessarily feel that the OP in this case is wrong for wanting one. That isn't to say his lady is automatically wrong for being against it, though. Maybe she has valid, reasonable objections to it. So, it's really just a matter of whether the two of them can find some compromise that would keep them both happy.

[ironpony]

Okay thanks for the advice people. Some people were telling me that I should speak to a lawyer about all this first, before talking to her about it, to see if a prenup is even worth it or not, legal wise.

So I took the advice and booked the appointment with the lawyer and did not tell her. She found the appointment in my email by accident, while trying to log onto her mail, and saw that I had made the appointment to discuss a prenup. I told her that I wanted to go over a consultation with a lawyer first, to know what my financial options are, before talking to her about it again. But she got upset and mad and said I went behind her back. It was not my intention to look at it that way, as I was just taking other people's advice on how to best handle the issue. I did tell her before that I might see a lawyer about it maybe, but we didn't go over any confirmation, and I just made the appointment.

She then was really bothered by this and said that I need to grow a pair of balls, and should have told her I was going to see a lawyer.

I told her before that I might see a lawyer next week, but she didn't ask me about it since I made the plan and I didn't tell her. Now that she asked what I was doing that day, I told her and I was honest.

I told her that my balls are telling that I should stick the appointment since I made it first, and I will give you other free times next week instead for us to look at venues.

She then said that she is no longer going to have sex with me for a long time now. Hmmm... okay???

Did I go behind her back or something again by only telling her I might see a lawyer, and not confirming the appointment?

A few minutes later she came back and apologized saying she overreacted and that she just wants me to be upfront with her about such appointments and keep me apprised so she is not surprised when she finds out by accident. But she apologized and she was really nice about it a few minutes later.

Do you think it's good that she apologized or is there a problem here?

[TheEvilJester]

It is certainly good that she realized she was wrong and apologized. ....The thing is, after a while, if the same kind of attitude/actions persist, apologies can start to mean less and less. Now, I don't know if this is the case with you or not.... but if people do something wrong.... then apologize.... but then just keep doing the same wrong things again and again, then the apology is insincere and means nothing.

I don't recall if myself or anybody specified, but I don't necessarily know if I'd suggest you go to see a lawyer without her even knowing. The thing is, I wouldn't necessarily say you did that. You mention that you told her you may go talk to a lawyer. I suppose you could have specifically told her once you did set the appointment up. Maybe it is just me, though, but I don't think you necessarily HAD to. You already told her you may talk to somebody. Considering she was so against it, I can't blame you for wanting to talk to the lawyer by yourself first.

Though, at some point if you do still wish to pursue it, you definitely should talk to her about it again and invite her to talk to the lawyer with you. Again, a couple's goal should be to work TOGETHER to agree to a prenup that they both feel protects them reasonably. That or to decide not to use a prenup at all. It should be a joint decision, not one person having to feel forced into a decision with which they do not feel comfortable.

On the surface, I am personally not liking the way she's reacted to you. From what you've shared (and again, without being closer to the situation, we can't know for sure) it sounds to me like you've been very fair and diplomatic about it. On the other hand, it sounds like she's been very immature and petty about it. Again, it's okay for her to be against the idea of a prenup if that is how she honestly feels. What is NOT okay is the way she's treated you in her disagreement.

Good luck to you once again. Hopefully when you get a chance to talk to her about it she can better understand that you aren't asking for it because of any negative reasons that may be in her mind. That you want it for her protection just as much as yours. That it does NOT mean you think the marriage probably will end. It's just saving you both from the horrible process divorce can become if, God forbid, it does end. But, I venture to guess you wouldn't be marrying her if you weren't as sure as you could be that she was the right gal for you.

[Octavian12]

We are not technically not married yet but we have talked about getting married often. I was going to propose to her this weekend actually, and she new it, cause I hinted that I was going to, rather obviously. But she brought up whether or not I would ask for a pre-nup if we got married. I considered it on my own, and was going to bring it up later on in the engagement, but she brought it now.

She became very upset and started throwing up even when I said yes, I wanted one. She said that if she were to marry me with a pre-nup signed, she would not have children with me cause there is no way she would bring children into that type of marriage.

I talked about it with my closest woman friend and she said that if she were in my gf's position, she would not sign one, because if a man asks a woman to sign one, it shows me has questionable intentions.

Was this a jerk move on my part? It's just my gf doesn't have any money hardly. She lives from paycheck to paycheck and has 50 dollars only in her bank account right now. Where as I have enough money to buy a house, which I am looking for right now. So with this current situation, I thought it would be best to say yes to one, just in case.

Is that wrong or negative of me? She says I have till next month to withdraw the pre-nup request, or she will break up with me, cause it's not worth continuing therefore. Or if she marries me, she will definitely not have kids, she says as a result of it. What do you think?

--

you should trust her

[melancholia]

You could say the same about the girlfriend, that her intentions are only to marry him for his money. She isn't looking at this rationally, she is taking it personally and putting emotional weight into something that should be standard. If she has bad habits with saving and spending money, it's a bad sign and she will continue to carry those bad habits into the marriage. Why should would mention anything about children is odd to me, as a prenup doesn't have anything to do with children. If you were to get divorced, the matter of children and custody would be an entirely separate issue from the splitting of finances.

Have you talked to a lawyer about this at all yet? I think getting legal advice would be best. You can ask your girlfriend to go with you, so that she can ask questions herself to get a little more educated about what a prenup is. If you do decide not to get a prenup, I highly, HIGHLY recommend that when you do buy a house, that you do not put her name on the title. If you can, buy it before you get married and put your name as sole owner, and then charge her rent. Yes, it might sound dumb, but it will protect at least ONE asset of yours if you do end up getting divorced. Obviously nobody here is rooting for divorce, and it does sound like you want to marry this woman, but being smart and careful about it is not a mistake. It's important to protect yourself. The last thing you want to do is cave in to her needs and wishes, while giving up on yours. In the event that you do that, and possibly get divorced, you will be f*cked financially and you will wish that you signed the prenup in the first place.

Look into it more before you propose so that you have a clear idea of exactly what you want. Do not propose until you've received legal advice from a lawyer, and decided what is best for you.

[smarta$$]

I don't know what the laws are like in Canada, but in California, whatever is your sole and separate property prior to marriage remains yours. If you keep the money separate, as was already suggested by another poster, it would remain yours in the event of a divorce.

So if your laws are the same, asking for a prenup is dumb.

And $200,000 isn't really all that much, especially since only 100,000 would actually be on the line, even if the money were divided 50/50.

But yeah, I think you should just keep the money separate... buy your own property or something separately, and build a life from scratch with her (if you love her) after you get married. Do not mix old assets with your new ones. And definitely get a lawyer to advise you.

Edited to add, because I didn't see page 2 posts before responding: Stick to your guns. You have every right (and responsibility) to make an educated decision about whether or not to pursue a prenup. You were kind enough to tell her you might see a lawyer, that was all you were obligated to do. If she wants to pout and be a brat, let her. Her feelings were hurt, and she realized she was being unreasonable. If she continues to harbor resentment, then that wouldn't speak well as to her character.

[TheEvilJester]

....Seriously, is it just me? I mean, cripes, I do decently well for myself... and even I consider $200,000 to be a lot of money. I mean, it's not like it is millions/billions, but it is a damned respectable life savings, I don't know how old these figures are, but I read somewhere that the average American has less than $1,000 in savings. Thankfully (and knock wood this will remain the case) I am not in that boat. However, I certainly don't have/make enough to consider $200,000 to be "not really all that much." God, maybe I'm in the wrong line of business.... or living in the wrong area.

Sorry. I know this is slightly off topic, but there have been at least two folks here (as well as apparently a bunch of people in the OPs life) saying that $200,000 is not all that much money.

It is beside the point, though. It doesn't necessarily matter if he has $1 to his name or $8,000,000,000. The point, more so, is that it is important for both parties in any impending nuptials to either agree to a mutually beneficial prenup, or agree not to pursue a prenup at all. I don't personally think it is wrong to want a prenup even if you have NOTHING to your name. I also don't think it is wrong not to be okay with a prenup. However, what would be wrong would be for either of you to force the other into an arrangement with which the other is not comfortable. So, if you can, try to discuss it with her in a more calm manner. As many of us have said, talk to a lawyer to learn all the details you can and perhaps even offer to let her come to the lawyer with you so she can even get a better understanding. It should be intended to protect you BOTH if (key word IF) the marriage should unfortunately end.

[smarta$$]

However, I certainly don't have/make enough to consider $200,000 to be "not really all that much." God, maybe I'm in the wrong line of business.... or living in the wrong area.

Sorry. I know this is slightly off topic, but there have been at least two folks here (as well as apparently a bunch of people in the OPs life) saying that $200,000 is not all that much money.

It's probably regional. In California, it's a significant amount of money, but it's not enough that I would *personally* allow it to interfere with an entire lifetime with another person.

[TheEvilJester]

See, that's where I think maybe we ARE on the same page, or are at least more on the same page than it may seem. Because, I agree it isn't enough money to consider more important than finding love. I don't really think ANY amount of money is more important than that....

The thing is, maybe this is just my view, but that isn't the point of a prenup. At least it shouldn't be. It isn't about valuing money more than love. It's just about being realistic and protecting yourself (preferably protecting both parties) in the event of something going wrong. Again, I think the car insurance analogy somebody else brought up was the best way to look at it, really. You don't get car insurance because you just expect that you are eventually going to get in a car accident. You hope you never do. You may even think you probably never will. Hell, hopefully you never do.... yet you still pay a great deal of money (especially over time) to protect yourself in case you do. This is like marriage insurance.

Frankly, all of this is coming from a guy who probably wouldn't even bother with a prenup anyway. I just have never agreed with the stigma they get. In a life where over half of marriages end in divorce, how could you ever blame somebody for wanting to protect themselves?