Feelings for someone with a boyfriend.

[RagnaRocke]

So, I actually missed the party. I didn't finish working till 21:00 but my friends still wanted me to come. She said she felt a bit akward being around her ex and his friends at the moment and wanted to wait for me, so we arranged to meet at 22:30. Just after this, I texted my friend to see if everyone had moved on (since they had started drinking at 19:00) and he replied that he was too drunk to stay out and had gone home. Her ex had invited everyone back to his flat and they were all there.

Her ex had been texting her all night trying to find out when she was coming and she had generally ignored him or made excuses. Since we had both gotten ready for a night out and I had come all the way back into town, I said we could just go out and have a few drinks ourselves or if she wanted to go to his flat and chill at the party I wouldn't mind - She wanted me to go with her to his flat, I said I would but I would rather go out. She texted him a few times explaining that she was with me and asked if I could come, to which he replied that he would be uncomfotable with me being there. So she told him we were going out for a drink and everyone was welcome to meet us out if they wanted to. He texted back a bit later saying he had changed his mind and didn't mind me coming as long as I would 'show him some respect'. I promised to her that I would, since I wouldn't disrespect someone in their own home and if he asked me to leave at any time I would politely leave. She said if that happened she would leave with me, but said she was having a better time out with me anyway, so she didn't want to go to his anymore.

We both got a bit drunk and bumped into some of her ex's friends while we were dancing and we had been kissing in the club as well. I don't think this group of people had gone to the house party at her ex's flat but I can't be sure. We were a bit worried, but they just said they knew what was going on and were happy for us. They were all pretty drunk too though.

She got so badly drunk though, that she couldn't walk and we got in a taxi back to mine. I spent most of the night nursing her, generally watching over her and getting her water if she wanted it. She was easily too drunk for us to have done anything sexual so of course, we didn't. She was really hung over in the morning, so apart from some gentle kisses there was nothing sexual in the morning either, which I didn't mind as I could tell she was feeling sick. She explained that she didn't remember much and that she wished that the first night we had slept next to each other could have gone differently. I nursed her in the morning as well, making her coffee and toast and just generally stayed and talked with her. I told her about her ex's friends seeing us, she didn't remember all the details so I filled her in and she was a bit worried at first but ultimately didn't seem bothered. I eventually drove her back to her Mum's when we had sobered up but she still looked pretty ill.

She text me a few times assuring me she was feeling better and I just said that I was glad. Probably won't see her now for a week or more (because of the distance).

But yeah, that's the party update. I'm still open to advice and I still want to play this carefully and hope for a relationship.

[Elle Hall]

Time will be best answer for you

[Wakeup]

@OP You do realize that as long as you continue to hang out with her you continue to perpetuate your infatuation of her which in turn is stagnating your ability to be open in heart and mind to find a great girl of your own that you will feel the same way about, the difference being, she will feel the same way about you too.

Stop being her emotional tampon, distance yourself from her until you're no longer crushing and find yourself a chick that wants you the way you want her.

This girl isn't into you like you're into her so don't waste another emotion on her. Back off and lead your backing off to zero contact... that is how you will recover from her.

[melancholia]

What kind of advice are you looking for at this point, OP? You've made up your mind about what you are going to do about this, and you seem to be v pleased with the way things are going. The ex is apparently cool enough about the situation to agree to allow you to come to his party, but you and this girl decided to go out instead... big whoop. You do have a relationship with her, it just isn't defined, and it certainly isn't serious. Unless you talk to her about how you feel and lay your expectations at her feet, it will continue like this until she gets bored of you.

[TheEvilJester]

Agreed with Wakeup and melancholia. Pretty much what we've been saying all along. Honestly, the more and more you tell us about the latest happenings, the more and more I become firmer in my belief that you need to let her go and move on. I mean.... what kind of nerve must somebody have had to text their VERY RECENT ex asking if it is okay if she brings the person she pretty much cheated on him with to his own house? Why would she put him in that situation? Why would she put you in that situation? Why would she want to put herself in that situation? They JUST broke up.... and very heatedly at that. Shouldn't she want to completely avoid him, not be hanging out with him (even in a group of friends) and certainly not over his own house? I really would hope that I am wrong about this, but the more you share of the story the more I think she is one of these people who craves this kind of bull crap drama. Thrives in it, even.

Honestly, I hope I am wrong. You seem stuck in your determination to be with her. One of two things will happen. Either we will all turn out to be right, and you will find out the hard way that she was never right for you. At that point, at least then you will be able to begin to move on. The other possibility is that we all wind up being wrong. That IS entirely possible. We all have rough times in life now and then and sometimes it can be hard dealing with it. There is a possibility that this is just one of her personal rough patches. That in time all this drama will be over. That in time you and her will become something real.

It doesn't seem that way to me (and obviously any of the others responding) but I honestly hope it turns out we are wrong. Since you are sticking to wanting to be with this woman, nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong. So, I will say again.... good luck. Do what feels right for you personally, but just don't allow yourself to be strung along for too long if nothing ever seems to change.

[melancholia]

OP: she is testing yours and her ex's emotional and mental capacity by continuing to play both of you. Her relationship may have ended, but she is still stringing both of you along, and both of you are willing to go along for the ride. I agree with TEJ, that it is v suspect that she would invite you to her ex's house and then ask him if it's ok for her to bring you... like what the f.uck? Who does that? Insane people, that's who. People who thrive on drama and love to watch people fight over them. She knows both of you care about her and she is using both of you as stepping stones to feed her own ego. I understand you can't see it that way because you're in so deep with how you feel, but stop thinking with your emotions and start looking at this with a clear perspective. The only way you can do that is if you create boundaries and put distance between you and this woman. She doesn't have your best interest at heart, and she definitely doesn't have her ex's best interest at heart. Why you would bother wasting any more energy and time on her is beyond me. You can be stronger than this if you choose to be, but until you realize that you deserve better, and that this woman does not care about you in the same way you do for her, then you will continue this uphill battle until she gets bored enough to drop you.

[dontaskme]

Since you and the ex are willing to stoop at a very low level for this woman, why don't you discuss having an open relationship between the three of you?

[TheEvilJester]

Glad I'm not the only one seeing that. What normal, sane, rational human being would think even for a second it is okay to force their ex and their current love interest into a situation where they are hanging out together? Really, in ANY situation, but A MILLION times more so when you consider the specifics of this very volatile situation. Honestly, after all the ex has put her through, what normal, sane, rational human being would even want anything to do with him at this point? She shouldn't even be anywhere near him, much less forcing you to be either. How is her automatic reaction to him inviting her to hang out with him (even in a group of friends rather than just one on one) NOT a simple NO?

Melancholia brings up a good point about trying to think logically rather than romantically. A good way you could do that.... Take a step back and pretend all of this stuff was happening to your best friend instead of you. If you were removed from the situation, how do you think you'd feel about all of that? What worries/concerns do you think you'd have for your friend? If this friend asked you for advice, what do you think you'd tell him? Even furthermore, what are some of the things you think you'd WANT to tell him, but you'd probably bite your tongue so as not to hurt his feelings?

If you think about it, I'm sure you'd be advising your best friend to exercise extreme caution.... you may even tell him the girl sounds like a complete psycho and doesn't sound worth all the drama. Maybe that would be wrong. Maybe she's just hit a rough patch in life. But, wouldn't part of you wonder, on behalf of your poor friend stuck in the middle of all this drama? If nothing else, I am sure you would at least advise your friend to play it safe and not get in too deep. That if he and her are going to wind up together it should come when she's had time to re-balance her life. I mean, I could be wrong. Maybe that's not the advice you'd give your friend. Still, if you try to look at this as though you are an outsider instead of being the person in the situation, I think you'd possibly see it differently and maybe understand why we are all advising to stay away from her (at least for right now).

Still, I've said it before and I'll say it again... it is your life, so it has to be your decision. So, wishing you the best in whatever it is you decide.

[RagnaRocke]

Her ex rang me in the middle of the night, waking me up, a few nights ago asking to meet up. I was initially angry but he said I owed him an explaination so I went and met him. He seemed angry when I arrived but I took a respectful, gentle approach and he calmed down after a few minutes.

We both agreed to be honest with each other and neither of us had anything to say the other didn't know. He said he didn't think she was lying to either of us because everything we said to each other basically backed up what she had told us. He said ultimately we were both left with more questions than answers. I said the two of them had unresolved issues and I didn't want to make any moves until that had been sorted. He said she was very confused and didn't know what she wanted. He said she had slept with him, but it was the time I already knew about. He said he thinks she might still want to be with him, but he had decided to cut off all contact with her in an attempt to get over her since nobody knows what they want right now. He wanted me to tell her we had met up, but didn't want to text her himself. He wanted me to tell her that he was willing to discuss things but wasn't going to contact her anymore.

I sent her a text saying that I had met up with him and that he was willing to talk but would ultimately leave her alone. She was suprised that he waned to talk to me.

A few days later, she texted me saying she had moved out of her family's house and had her own place, she wanted me to go and see it. I went round and we had a good time chilling as friends and we ended sleeping together again but I didn't stay. She also told me she had spoken to her ex, and had arranged a business agreement. She explained he had been very depressed, not eating properly and not showering - and he had not been cleaning his flat, so it was getting to a point where it was almost unlivable. So she arranged to go round to his flat once or twice a week to clean it - he would be paying her.

I was initially aggrovated. I explained it wasn't fair on me because I was having trouble deciding wether or not I wanted to be with her and the more she sees him, the more I lean towards walking away and I said it wasn't fair on her ex, since he had decided to cut off contact in order to get over her and she wasn't letting him do that.

She was upset at first and said she didn't want to loose me. She explained that she was short of money and she was only doing it help pay the rent at her new place. She said she would only be there when he wasn't there so she wouldn't see him and he is going have a key cut for her (he had changed the locks) so she can come round without him having to be there. I was still unhappy and said I think he plans to 'accidentally' be there when she's cleaning, and that the whole thing was weird. She said that plenty of cleaners have keys to their clients property and I said that most cleaners hadn't had a relationship with their clients.

In the end, she said I was starting to sound like her ex and I just stopped pressing the issue. I don't plan to conact her or see her for a little while, just while I get my head straight but if she contacts me, I'm still not sure what I'll do right now.

I think I already know what you guys are going to say, but I'm going to ask anyway. What's your opinion on these developments and is this cleaning thing completely innocent or should I take it as a warning sign?

[melancholia]

My opinion is that there haven't been any developments at all. You are in the exact same position you've always been, the downward dog position that keeps her comfortable and both you and her ex following her around, begging her for attention and affection. Do you not see how silly this whole thing is? Do you not see how insane each of your behaviors are at this point? You said you were chilling "just as friends", but that you slept together... sorry, but friends don't f.uck. She is getting everything she wants out of both you and her ex, and both of you are willing to give it to her at any expense. Neither of you are happy with the situation and she is the only one who benefits from this.

At first I was going to agree with you that your feelings about her cleaning his house are valid, but you aren't her boyfriend, so honestly, your thoughts on what she does are irrelevant. You have no say in what she does, who she sees, or where she makes extra money because you are not her partner. She doesn't have to care how you feel about it because she can do whatever she wants without giving an ounce of concern for anyone else's feelings -- and you are continuing to reinforce that sense of entitlement by keeping yourself stuck in this mess. This is not what a real, happy, healthy relationship looks like. I wish you could understand that and realize that you deserve better, and that something better is out there.

Both you and her ex need to f.ucking chill on this chick. She doesn't care about either of your feelings enough to see how much she is hurting you. I am sure she isn't a monster, and that she may have a difficult time letting either one of you go, but she is being selfish by keeping you both around like lost puppies so she can fulfill her ego. I know what it's like to be in your shoes, where you feel desperate for a deep connection with someone. You think that she is the only person who can instill that feeling inside of you because your connection to her is so powerful - I get that. But it's causing you to look at this blindly. You are actively ignoring your gut instincts, you are not protecting your emotional and mental well being and you are wasting your precious time. Stop catering to her needs and start focusing on your own needs. It already sounds like resentment is building within you because you said you were aggravated and frustrated with her decision to keep herself close to her ex. If she really needed the money that badly, she could clean anyone's house, or get a second job like every other adult does in a tight financial spot. I guarantee you she will not change her behavior any time soon, so you need to start taking a good hard look at your own behavior and start making some moves, unless you want to stay stuck right where you are -- in limbo with a chick who doesn't care enough about you.

[TheEvilJester]

I mean, melancholia pretty much said it all. Even with your latest update, I don't see where anything has changed. And, as far as how appropriate or inappropriate her arrangement is to clean her ex's place for him.... I think melancholia echoes my sentiments on that as well. Yes, it is weird, yes it is inappropriate, and yes it is HIGHLY likely he'll try to use the situation to "accidentally" be there when she is.....

But none of that really has bearing on the fact that you two are not boyfriend and girlfriend now. I don't even know what you are, but you are nothing official. So, if she is naive enough to think that situation is okay, that is up to her and nobody else. It would be different if her relationship had long since ended and you two had been together and exclusive for a while. Then, yes, I would say that it is wrong of her to do to you. However, you are not official in any way.

That still doesn't change the fact that it is weird, it is inappropriate, and I cannot see how she could possibly so naive to believe he won't try to use the situation. Once again, you have to do what you think is best, but I don't see how much more glaring the red flags could be telling you to get out of dodge. At the very least, she needs time to deal with her relationship and either end it or decide she wants to try to make it work. If it ends, then she really obviously needs some time just to recover, because there has been obvious damage done as result of her tumultuous relationship. Only then should she be even considering pursuing ANYBODY, whether or not that is you.

Good luck.

[melancholia]

[MENTION=71386]TheEvilJester[/MENTION], I admire how you always give people the benefit of the doubt. That's something I am not capable of doing; but she is not naive. She knows exactly what she is doing. OP: you aren't naive either. You are simply refusing to see things the way they actually are, because you can't see past the emotional haze. If you aren't ready to let her go completely just yet, at least do yourself the favor of taking some time away from her. Give yourself a week or two of NO contact with her, and take that time to really reflect on your own life and what you want out of this relationship, and a relationship in general. I think you should make a list of what the most important aspects of a relationship are for you. If she is fulfilling those needs right now, in this exact situation, just the way it is, then we who are we to judge that? But if she isn't meeting your needs, and this relationship isn't progressing the way you thought (or hoped) it would, then it may be time to consider bowing out. If not now, then soon. Life isn't short, it's the longest thing we do; but life is far too precious to waste on trying to make something work that just won't work.

OP, I know you want things to work out with this woman so badly that you're willing to look past all these red flags, but you are doing a disservice to yourself by doing that. Whether she isn't the right woman for you, or she is the right woman for you but the timing just isn't right, the end result is the same: it's not the right relationship. I can tell that it's not, because there hasn't been any progress between you two at all, except for the occasional romp in the sack. I know it means more to you than that, and she most likely knows it means more to you than that as well, but whether she is using you intentionally or unintentionally, she is still using you and that is not fair to you at all. There are so many women out there who are ready for what you want, and who can give you the same level of effort and energy that you can give to them. Stop thinking that she is the only woman out there who can inspire these feelings for you, because she is not. Even if your relationship was perfect, she still wouldn't be the only woman out there who could be.

You should strive for something better than this, because you deserve it.

[RagnaRocke]

I always appreciate your advice, everyone but I have to bow my head and say once more I did not follow it :/

This is only a minor development again - but she texted me asking to spend the day together as she knew I was off of work and she only had a short, morning shift. At first I tried to make excuses, saying I was busy most of the day but I might be able to squeeze her in in the evening, although it was unlikely. But she twisted my arm and we made plans.

Once again it was a really good day. I picked her up from work and drove her to mine and we spent the day on a kind of date as I gave her a sort of tour of my new town. I had decided not to bring up the weird cleaning thing, but she brought up that she was struggling to pay rent and get food at the moment, saying it was either one or the other. So, at my place, we sat down together and I worked through her budget with her. It became apparant that her job was only just covering rent, bills and food and since she had been 'sort of' kicked out by her ex I suggested she might be entitled to some housing benefit.

I took her down to the local council office, she didn't really want to go but I convinced her. After quite a long session, filled with a lot of questions and investigations by the council, they finally deteremined that she was entitled to benefits that would basically cover 90% of her rent for her and got her a council tax reduction. She was very happy about this and thanked me.

So after this, I brought up the cleaning thing, saying that perhaps she could make it just a temporary arrangement until her benefits are sorted. She said she understood why I had a problem with the whole thing and texted her ex saying that she had sorted out her money issues and wouldn't be going round to clean - this all happened before the first time she was meant to go round and she showed me the text (off her own back, I didn't ask to see it) so I know she isn't lying about it.

Her ex didn't take it very well, calling and texting her all day like before. He said she was only using him for money and he felt foolish for not seeing this straight away. She owes him some money as well, which he demanded she pay by the end of the week. She said she didn't have the money yet but promised to pay him when she could, but he continued to demand the money saying her money issues aren't his problem. He has no legal entitlement to the money and nothing in writing, so I said just to pay him at her own pace.

She spent the night at mine, I cooked for her in the evening and we watched some Netflix, it was nice. We slept together again and fell asleep together. She made breakfast for me in the morning and I drove her to work.

So based on this, I don't think she was just finding excuses to see her ex or stringing him along. I think it really was about the money. Based on his reaction, I believe he was planning to exploit the situation, unless he was kind of looking at it like she was working off what she owed him.

Please feel free to state your opinions on this, I know my mind is clouded by emotion so I need the clarity of a third party perspective. I don't know what advice I'm asking for, I guess I still need a bit of time to pass before I know what to do. I'm currently sticking with leaving her alone but my problem is, when she chases me I can't resist :/

[melancholia]

No you don't need a third party's advice. Clearly you would rather have someone validate your thoughts about this and agree with you because you aren't taking anyone's advice.

All I hear is that you are bending over backward to make everything easier for this woman. What has she actually done for you besides give you a hard on and make you breakfast once? If you coddle her and do everything for her, it reinforces her inexperience in dealing with adult issues. Her ex is 100% correct that her financial position is not his problem and he has every right to demand she pay him what she owes. It's true he has no way of getting it back forcefully if there are no written contracts, but the mature, responsible thing would be for her to just pay him back. She really needs to sort her life out and she actively chooses to be with men who will support her financially and emotionally so she doesn't have to do it herself. Pathetic.

You won't gain any clarity by staying close to her. You just won't. So I have no idea what you expect to get from asking for advice. You ignore all the red flags, you are not allowing this woman any time to get her life together and support herself because you want to keep up this charade of a relationship with her.

Here is my last piece of advice for this update: do not give her even one dollar. Do not help her out financially, whether she asks or you offer out of the kindness of your heart. You're already in the beta position because you will drop anything for her as soon as she says "go".

Have you talked to her about your situation and what she thinks any of this means?

[RagnaRocke]

She texted me saying her ex wanted to meet up and give her some 'gifts'. They met at her new place and the gifts turned out to be a mug as a housewarming gift, some chocolates to say sorry for harassing her and a fair amount of money (about a week's rent) by means of apology.

I phoned her and asked to go round to hers and meet up with her which she agreed to. I had every intention of talking to her about things and was even almost resolved to walking away from the situation, I just didn't want to do it over the phone. I honestly can't be sure in my head if I was serious or it was just my emotions taking control and making me want to see her. She mentioned on the phone that she was on her period so there couldn't be any sex but she was still ok with just hanging out.

She told me her ex explained to her that the whole 'not seeing her' thing wasn't going to work and they are planning to hang out as friends twice a week, one time of which she will be cleaning his flat for a price, but he will be there at the time.

I said I found this very suspicious and that it didn't make sense to me, that one minute she's running away from him chasing her down the street and trying to research potentially requesting help from the police due to harassment and the next she's inviting him round to her new place. She showed me a text from him where he said he understood if she didn't want him to know where she lived but she invited him anyway. I was also annoyed saying that he couldn't know if not seeing her wouldn't work since he'd never tried it. Yes, I'm aware of the irony that I've been doing the same thing :/ I'm also aware that as we're both single, I have no right to feel this way and I'm angry at myself for feeling it.

She said they watched some TV as friends and nothing sexual happened, she was very upset that I accused her of doing anything, but I was upset. I realise that I'm acting like her ex now and that worries me. I said I thought I needed some time away from her for a few weeks to get my head straight. I asked if she wanted me to go home and she said it depended on if I was going to be interrogating her about this all night. I said that it was probably best for me to go -- and I planned to leave and not talk to her for a few weeks but...

I couldn't. I knew she was just being stubborn and as we got to the door, I succumed to my emotions and I asked if I could stay over and she nodded, hugged me and started crying. So we chilled together. We kissed plenty of times but obviously there was no sex. She made me food and I thought we had a good night but she said I seemed distant.

She made me breakfast again in the morning and we talked about her ex again. She said she had known him since they were very little and didn't want to ruin their friendship just because the relationship didn't work out. She said she didn't have so many friends that she could just throw them away. She said I was acting like a baby and I had nothing to worry about because she doesn't have any feelings for him anymore. She didn't plan to do anything with him but stay friends.

I said I trusted her but it was him I didn't trust. I said I thought he was still trying to win her back and friends don't buy romantic chocolates for each other. She dismissed it, saying it was just his way of apologising. She asked if I was always going to be like this and I was honest and said I didn't know.

I said I didn't know what to do, because I wasn't sure how she felt about me... She said she liked me, a lot.
I said this was just another crossroad in my life but, for the first time, I didn't know what to do. I told her I didn't want to scare her off, but with that said - I told her that I'd put up with everything so far because I had...started to fall for her. She said she felt the same about me. I said it would be really hard for me to let her go. That I wanted a relationship with her, more than anyone I've ever met and how I felt about her scared me a little bit. She said that she felt we were on the border of a relationship, that she was basically holding the door open and waiting for me to come in. I said I didn't know if a relationship would work, that it didn't look like her ex was going away in the foreseeable future and I didn't know how long I could keep dealing with her seeing him. I didn't know if the situation with her ex was going to get any easier for me. That I didn't want to make any moves officially until I had sorted out these issues in my head. I said it would be easier if she just stopped seeing him.

She got a bit upset and said she didn't want another boyfriend who controls her life. That if I had a problem with them being friends it might not work between us.

She was meant to be chilling with her ex in a couple of days, but I invited her out on a sort of date on the same day and she told him something had come up and they couldn't hang out. I plan to make a decision on this date as to wether or not I keep seeing her.

I think it would be best to stop seeing her for a few weeks, like everyone says. If she gets back with her ex in that time then that's life. If not, I might ask her out on another date and see how things work. But I'm constantly fighting between my emotions and logic. I am leaning more and more towards not seeing her for a while -- I just don't understand why it's so hard to walk down that path when it's so obviously the logical thing to do