Can't argue with thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Touche, Vash
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Can't argue with thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Touche, Vash
Those who own firearms are only dangerous when they are quick to pull it. There were numerous times in my life(about one million) where I was being either pushed around, hit with a bat, or being attacked...now..this way it somehow ended with both of us alive...but I have no idea what would have happened if either of us had a gun. Most likely two lives would have been ruined.
Been reading all about the terrible Virginia Tech University massacre and reading peoples responses to it and the following one is particularly thought provoking...
"Americans, in their isolation from Europe, are also isolated from the history of wars that shapes the culture of Europeans. We, as a society, did not experience the holocaust, the blitzkrieg, or the loss of sovereignty to a "foreign" government that France, Poland, Hungary and others experienced. We are not impacted on a daily basis by the strife in Ireland or the Middle East.
I don't know any of the victims or families of any of our school shootings, and while I am saddened I am not personally impacted in a way that would foster empathy. While European societies learned the evils of warfare and experienced the heartache of personal loss - we viewed from afar and did not gain a sense of societal responsibility. I believe this is behind our violent video games and movies; we have a sense of righteous redemption but no personal experience of loss.
The shooter was as American as any of us, having grown up far away from his ancestor's homeland. While he may have heard stories from his british ancestors, he did not share their personal experience. It is easier to "dispose" of others when you feel no connection to them, no sense of shared triumph over evil - that triumph is as engrained in the psyche of every European, but is a "foreign" concept to Americans. We are all loners - the sense of pride in America, is pride in being left alone, not that of being part of a community.
Even "9/11" could not create that community because we are just too big. While violent crime in NYC was almost non-existent for weeks following the attack, it did not affect the entire country and could not be sustained.
So we are arrogant, hedonistic, nihilistic... but we are also insulated, naive and spoiled - we are a nation of adolescents protected by our parents
overseas who carry the burdens of the wars of the world. As weapons progress and more countries obtain them, we may grow up very soon. Perhaps we'll stop killing ourselves when others start killing us."
Know these aren't my words but its a interesting view of things...
Its clear that Americans generally have a different view of guns and weapons than most countries, as its ingraided in the costitution that guns are a "right".
But other countries like the UK, which have much stricter gun laws and where people must first have a liscence before they're allowed to own a gun, have much lower rates of gun crime and incidents like the school shootings seen in America are much rarer events.
However, although sticter gun laws would help in time, its unlikely it would have much inpact initially. Theres just so many guns in America and its so easy to aquire them.
Also I think changing American gun laws would be such a major change to the system that most presidents will be too scared to go through with it. I hope one day someone is brave enough to stand up though and speak out fo change.
Whocares anymore people? It doesn't matter..forget that shit. It is in the past right? just like all of you always say so.
What the hell are you talking about, OV?
Are you comparing violent crime to the sex lives of women?
No. I am comparing past to past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Thank the **** Christ! Somebody finally said it.Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveTwist [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
And OV is a pathetic and confused young man
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDurden [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I'm glad you think that, but...I don't care what you think "yawn"
Huh? I did post in the correct form right? We're discussing the problems of gun crime and how to go about changing it? Know I didn't really come up with any ‘light bulb above head’ solutions here, but it is true that stricter gun laws can help to reduce gun crime... well in the long run. The evidence is clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Only-virgins [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
What’s the point of the past if you're not going to at least acknowledge your mistakes, and think of ways to do things better in the future? Just adding some thoughts here. But I'm aware much of this has no doubt been repeated many times by many people. So feel free to ignore it if you want.
Just to add another point (In case someone else points it out) - I’m aware that crime rates over all are not always lower in countries with stricter gun laws. In the UK, rates of rape and murder may be down, but burglaries and muggings are more common so stricter gun laws don’t solve everything.
However, would you rather have lower rates of murder and save lives that would otherwise be lost to gun crime, and the price is you get your mobile phone nicked every once in awhile? Or more senseless shootings and deaths, but if some bastard breaks into your home and tries to steal your TV you can save it by shooting it out of his hands?
LoveTwist is the only one that is thinking out of the American box here.
He posted a European view that says it all.
Do you guys know that they are now banning import & sale of Fake/Pirate Copy Katana's in Europe.
Why...
Because some drunk idiots used these cheap "toys" as weapons.
They didn't even use guns & they are banning those items so that the majority can't get there hands on it.
They might as well ban bricks to prevent muggings,late night robberies and to a lesser degree murders in my country.
I am a South African & to get a gun here is nearly impossible with our new gun regulations.
My point...
So what do the under crust of society use to do their crimes???
Anything they can get their hands on!!!
I would rather have a guy come at me with a katana than a gun.
Banning knives, swords, etc. is ridiculous. Anything can be used as a melee weapon. A credit card snapped in half could be used to slit a throat. Perhaps European countries ought to ban them. What about shoelaces? Someone might use one to garrote.
The crux is take away the tool & it will be replaced.
Regardless of function.
That is how humanity has evolved.
Shall we make a list of potential mid - long range weapons to use then?
OK:
Throwing Knives;
Crossbows;
Molotov Cocktails;
Bow & Arrow;
Catties;
Darts - LOL;
etc.
"Innovation is the mother of creation."
Throwing Knives cannot be effectively used as weapons. You must know the exact distance from yourself to the target. They're only good for shows.
Crossbows are deadly but they are also bulky single-shot weapons. I'd rather have someone come at me with something I can see from a distance and that can only fire a single time. Handguns are far deadlier.
Molotov Cocktails are deadly if you're hit directly or you're in an enclosed area with no alternative exit, say inside a car. Again, I think I'd rather face a Molotov than a handgun.
Bow & Arrow same as crossbows except they take extensive training to use properly. Criminals don't care to train. They want something they can point and kill with.
Dunno what catties are.
Darts still don't scare me like a pistol.
Of course any thing could potentially be used as a weapon. Hell a guy can kill someone with his bare hands.
But guns are "designed" to be effective killing machines. Sure you can use a brick to smash someone’s head in, but are you really going to carry a load of bricks in your bag just for that purpose? And could you throw a brick across the street and hit someone accurately enough to kill? I doubt it.
Sure you can use knives too, but knives aren't designed for killing, they have other uses. What use does a gun have other than too harm or kill people? (and I'm including self defence in this). Shooting tin cans doesn't count.. you don't need to use a live gun with real bullets for that.. you can use foam pellets to shoot tin cans just as effectively.
Also someone can kill lots of people quickly with a gun, and its almost impossible to stop them. If someone throws a knife then they're much less likely to hit the person accurately enough to kill, and the victim has more time to react, defend themselves and/ or move out of the line of fire. Its a hell of a lot harder to predict when someone’s going to shoot a gun and to dodge a bullet, unless you're superman.
To kill the large number of people killed in incidents like the Virginia Tech University shootings, with knives you'd have to be an expert knife thrower, and even then its likely you'd be stopped a lot sooner. And sure you could use a bomb... but bombs are illegal and it would take a lot more time and effort to put together a bomb and use it.
If you're a messed up teenager obsessing over a personal problem and can barely see straight, its unlikely you'd spend all that time and effort to put together a bomb. But if you've got easy access to a gun then its easy to bung in some bullets and go off on a mad rampage. I agree with Gribble here... most people aren't going to have the training or accuracy needed to fine cross-bows and darts effectively enough to kill.
And I do agree that its stupid just to go around banning anything and everything that can be used as a weapon. But some of the more deadlier items, like guns (and yeah.. even the Katana swords and cross-bows like you suggested as alternatives) should be more strictly controlled.
Not saying they should be banned altogether. Just think people should carry a licence to own weapons like that, so that every other gimbo on the street can’t get hold of one and go on senseless killing sprees, accidentally shoot their mate or get completely drunk and shoot the first guy who looks at them the wrong way.
On top of the United State's National Constitution, I just found Pennsylvania's constitution, which states:
Right to Bear Arms
Section 21.
The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
I just find that funny...
pfft, fras. the right to bear arms needn't be interpreted like that. every state does it differently. A state could say "you can only bear arms for hunting and you must be mentally sound and.. etc etc." or it could just say "ah heck, you really oughta be older than 12 to buy a gun if it's against your parents wishes.."
Is there a correlation between the laxity of gun laws and the incidents of gun crimes? I dunno. I wouldn't suspect that it'd be particularly strong, 'cos I imagine it's pretty easy to get a gun even if you're not allowed to in your state for whatever reason. just borrow one, or drive across a border or whatever.
Me, i'd rather live in a place where only the government have guns, than where everyone has guns.
Well, that's how my state interprets the "right to bear arms".Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiay [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
There was no other amendments to it, or any explanation. That's why I found it so humorous.
In any case, you should know that America was founded on the distrust of the government.
Here you have the Commonwealth stating that:
Political Powers
Section 2.
All power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority and instituted for their peace, safety and happiness. For the advancement of these ends they have at all times an inalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform or abolish their government in such manner as they may think proper.
I would interpret this as the will to resort to anarchy as a means to preserve democracy.
Interesting isn't it?
I've been brought up to be respectful, however wary of the government. The whole idea behind democracy is that the government serves the people, and if it does not, that the people can choose to remove the government. So long as the elected Americans have similar sentiments, we may not have to resort to such measures.
America feeds off of controversy.
It keeps us relatively in balance.
It's what makes this country great.
But all good things eventually come to an end.
That's what guns are for.
(edit: wrote this before you replied. reading that now.)
ah, I think i'm on to something here. You guys don't trust your government, which is a government that is a bad big brother in other ways anyway. Who knows what they'll do next. Nobody votes, either. Many people feel ignored by the government. The police bears arms, implying that their rule is not voluntary, but rather forced, or could easily be forced if needed. In that environment, I might (grudgingly) want a gun myself!
Having the regular irish police be unarmed sent a huge message. here we also know that the government are a bunch of incompetent morons... And with what force would they suppress the irish people anyway? heh, the military? but those are all regular citizens. This is a country that in part owes its freedom to guns, and yet nobody wants any now? Because there's no fear of the government.
ah, yeah, distrust of government. Power to the people is great and all- but you need the gov.. well. A government of some kind. it'd be anarchy without it. everyone would be running around with guns killing each other and.. oh. wait a sec.
whatever it is you have over there, it is not proper democracy anymore. Isn't a good old abolishment in order right about now?
just don't do it this summer, though. I'd hate to get caught in the crossfire.
i would rather be shot than stabbed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
and i'd rather have a gun than a katana if a guy came at me with a katana.
You are serriously ****ed up. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Only-virgins [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
so would you feel better if the victims of vt were pushed out windows instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Apprently the best way to die is drowning because the chemicals in your brain while drowning make you feel high or something.
really? I think carbon monoxide would be a good way to go too.
I'd rather be shot than sliced, too. Katana's are scary as hell- a friend of a friend has a real one.. you'd cut your finger off just touching the blade.
Yeah I heard Carbon Monoxide isn't so bad, apprently you just feel sick and fall to sleep. Also apprently the way you can tell some-ones been poisoned by Carbon Monoxide is to look at the persons blood in an autposy as it's meant to turn a cherry colour because it does something to the oxygen in the blood streem.
Yeah I'm full of useless information.
Yeah carbon monoxide would probably be a relatively pleasant way to die... if there is such a thing as a pleasant way to die.. :P Over dosing on pain killers or dying in your sleep are probably better ways to go too. Or when your under a general anaesthetic, you just dont wake up again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiay [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Also from what I've read, Katanas should have much stricter licensing laws too... anything that deadly. In the UK you're not allowed to even by a sharp kitchen knife until you're 16, though I admit thats crazy because you can just get a sharp knife from anywhere..
Though there are laws about carrying knives around too I think... But I know they’re extremely complicated. Think if you get caught in possession of a really sharp knife, especially if your caught wielding it around of anything I think you can be sent down for it.
Knives that are illegal for everyone in the UK include –
Flick knives - Switchblades or automatic knives - where the blade is hidden inside the handle and shoots out when a button is pressed.
Butterfly knives - Where the blade is hidden inside a handle that splits in two around it, like wings. The handles swing around the blade to open or close it.
Disguised knives - Where the blade is hidden inside something like a belt buckle or a fake mobile phone.
I have no idea, but that sounds like it could also be pretty ugly, depending on the painkiller.Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveTwist [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
hah, I didn't know that. I dunno though, sharp knives aren't that abundant. I've found many homes don't have any properly sharp knives.Quote:
In the UK you're not allowed to even by a sharp kitchen knife until you're 16, though I admit thats crazy because you can just get a sharp knife from anywhere..
those are some good laws imo.
Yeah, you're right, would depend on the painkiller.... if you overdose on paracetamol and you don't take enough then the side effects can be really nasty... and if you don't happen to die from it, then you're liekly to suffer sever illness afterwards..Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiay [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
so yeah.. wouldn't really recommend it or anything. But with a high enough dose paracetamol can put you into a coma pretty quickly, so that wouldn't be too bad. Although personally I wouldn't want to die that way. Going under general anaesthetic and not waking up would probably be the best of all those ways. I'd much rather live though! :)
"Proper democracy", in it's purest form does not exist on a large scale anywhere in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiay [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Democracy is something to be aspired to, but will never be achieved.
In any case, the best description of the US government, is a democratic republic. This helps prevent "tyranny of the majority".
I will not deny that we are a violent culture.
i personally like the disguised swords that are concealed in walking canes. those are for fancy rich pimps.Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveTwist [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
yeah, that's a good point. the truest example imo is the direct democracy in Switzerland. Though, if memory serves, they're all in the army and all have firearms at home. And yes, there are like 300 deaths a year due to army guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I don't want to get stabbed or shot. But at least I can defend myself from a knife.
LOL!
Gribble knows Kung-Fu.
Why don't you teach us all how to expect the unexpectedness "stab" in the dark.
Perhaps with that info,less people would die from "Mug 'n Stabs" then actual bank robberies...
Almost forgot to mention - 1)People need to learn to use guns just like any other weapon.
- 2)I am from South Africa dammit.We have more school stabbings then anything else.
- 3)If someone wants you dead,they sure spend allot of time practicing it...
- 4)More blah blah blah...
Avoidance. People who live in the city or in rough towns learn to be aware of their surroundings and how to avoid trouble. Simple as that. But sometimes bad shit happens no matter how hard you try to avoid it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimeros0 [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
As someone who has lived around guns all his life I can tell you that no, they do not require much training. From close range killing a man is as simple as pointing and flexing a finger. Requires no training whatsoever. If you can load the gun and flick the safety off, you can kill. And all it takes to become a decent shot is a week or so of training. You won't be out-shooting marines, but you can sure as hell peg a stationary human-sized target from a good ways off.
You can run from a man with a knife. You can't run from a bullet.
You can fight off a man with a knife, even with your bare hands. You can't fight a man with a gun using just your fists.
Yeap. Noones saying you can't kill people with knives.. of course you can, but you can kill more people, more easily with a gun.. Simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I am thinking of the casual mugger or rapists way of using tools.
They don't want to be noisy & tell the whole neighborhood what they are up to.This "running" business also only works when you expect something to go wrong.
If,you are a psycho with an issue like the American School shootings,you can make your point.Kill,kill,die,die...Shoot myself in the head.
Guns kill,yes.
But when your afraid to do anything,your already dead anyway.
You can run from a guy with a gun.& the chance of him hitting you gets less.Especially if there are walls & buildings in the way.The necessary point to be made is that guns don't work like in the movies.
Blam,your dead is bull!
Especially with cheap bullets.
Infinite ammo doesn't exist.
You have to be a pretty good shot to kill someone ( mid to long range ).
I know that I might be coming from a weird sort of perspective,but being at gun point & knowing what I know doesn't make me give up & say: "OMG it's a gun.I am dead".
That's the sort of message I am getting from Gribble.
+ Lovetwist is right...
All it took was a single pathetic little wretch with with two pistols and not an ounce of muscle or skill to kill thirty-two people over at Virginia Tech. One of his weapons was a .22. Ammo don't get much cheaper than .22 rimfire.
May I ask what you did when you were at gunpoint?
How many times do I have to try to get a point across & it gets mis interpreted.
"If,you are a psycho with an issue like the American School shootings,you can make your point.Kill,kill,die,die...Shoot myself in the head."
I am also saying that even if he didn't have guns,he would have killed people and then offed himself any means possible ( suicide bomber perhaps ).
That is the scenario here.In South Africa.
People are getting killed regardless of whether they can get guns or not.
I am also trying to say that the brave few that actually try to do something instead of waiting to die end up helping to solve said situations.
Do you know about the taxi wars or bus shootings we have here???
Or the cash-car hijackings?
How about rape in South Africa?
Didn't think so.
If you did,then you'd know how people ( especially through numbers ) can take down a pathetic individual with a gun.Hell,here after they catch the bastard,they stone him to death...
As for me being at gun point,I never have been.My last post was if I was.
An "if" & "when" type of statement.
Might I ask,when you were held @ gunpoint or mugged Gribble?
P.S. Some punk having guns does not make him God.It only makes him feel like his God.& that means the little *ucker can go down!
I have stated my point enough.
If you don't understand, then you are too thick.So read the following line:
The Forums name is:" Violent Crime: Who or what is to blame?".I say people are to blame!!!
That is my opinion dammit!
My whole entire point is this: guns make killing easier. Simple as that.