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I'm talking about forging proof. Creating doubt. A highly manipulative person can do it. I'm not saying anyone can. I'm saying someone with the talent of manipulation. My father was one of those people... one of the best. He's a pig asshole. The point is, it can be done. I'm not saying it might not be more difficult with some couples, but it CAN be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Well, they can be interchangeable. Anyone with kids you're referring to... plug them into that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by shh! [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
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Originally Posted by Cain [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
You must be paranoid. My husband would believe me if I told him I wasn't cheating because I have a long history of being honest.
I think we are mostly in agreement then too. Except that, "being just a friend" can mean a lot of things. A proffesional relationship destabilizer can be "just a friend" too and yet easily destabilize the relationship by exploiting relationship's weaknesses, feeding malicious information to both parties, making both play with each other's trust and by exagerration of events. Being just a friend does not take into account a person's motive, in this case OP's motive is to be with the girl and the only way to achieve that is if relationship was to "somehow" fail.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Also, I'm not sure where we are on committment in relationships. I think you have a point of view that a relationship can exist without any form of commitment, where I disagree with that.
Apart from that, I think we agree.
So you're suggesting the alternative is for him to keep quiet and hope for the day they break up so he can have his turn? Continue in some kind of ersatz friendship with her? Isn't that what you would call 'devious'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Shall he do that right up to the day she decides to marry this other guy b/c she never realized her friend had feelings for her?
What if she likes him back but simply never thought that a relationship with him was even an option?
He can let her know he has feelings for her w/out spilling his guts if he's skillful. And if she rejects him at that point, then he can honestly decide if he really wants friendship or wants to move on.
Geeze, the way you guys argue makes me think that you'd shut down the very idea of free will once you've been dating more than a couple months. What is it you are so afraid of?
:surprised
Oh come on. It doesn't have to be JUST cheating. What if your husband discovered drugs in your car or somewhere in your house? What if someone slipped some of said drugs into a drink or food item of yours so that you'd fail a test? He'd still believe you weren't using drugs? Would he want to stay with you? Would he believe you weren't cheating when he thinks you lied to him about drugs?Quote:
Originally Posted by shh! [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I know you aren't on drugs. I'm just giving an example. Trust can be manipulated. You aren't failproof. My gf and I love each other but we're capable of being broken up as well. It can happen to any relationship.
What if someone focused on your husband? Could he avoid cheating if a perfect 10 hit on him? Don't be so sure. He'd definitely be tempted. Does he have the will power? Would you break up with him if he cheated on you?
It's the fact that most guys can't take no for an answer. They don't know how to express their feelings without actually expressing their feelings. I just think that if you didn't get involved with a girl before another guy did, tough shit. You either wait or find someone else. There are plenty of women for this guy to go out with. He doesn't have to try to break up a relationship.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Commitment (to me) = an agreement between partners that there is an intention of permanency to a relationship, such that plans for the future can be made with the understanding that both partners will be present in said future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Exclusive relationships are all the things we discussed, with the idea of *considering the possibility* of Commitment, above. But without any obligation to carry through with such until an actual mutual promise has been exchanged.
Keep in mind these are only my ideas & its how I experienced dating. I have a *really* stringent requirement for commitment. One could argue, however, that's the reason I have a good marriage. BTW, there are committed relationships that exist w/o exclusivity (as far as monogamy goes). Swingers, for example. Tho its my opinion (like yours Mish) that those are unhealthy relationships. But for those who enjoy & can work them, power to them.
It's hard to say Vash. It's one of those things that you don't know until it happpens to you. I personally believe it would be very hard to sabotage your relationship and make you play a role in it because you are very committed. But at the same time with enough skill and knowledge of your relationship vulnerabilities and demolition techniques even that unthinkable is posible. I don't know how it would play out, but as a reference I could point out to a hardship of infatuation you experienced a long time back. You worked through it, but it was hard. This harship could increase quite substantially if someone also had an intimate knowledge of your relationship and how to work both you and your partner skillfully into hard to manage conflicts while seeming completely innocent.Quote:
Originally Posted by shh! [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Okay, I agree with all except the above. I believe exclusivity is automatic once a relationship is agreed upon. Though I suppose, if both parties never have a relationship talk then I view them as simply dating and not really in a relationship. Even if they date for awhile. I see such couples as a fringe minority, since most couples have a relationship talk after a few months of going out since it's ussually enough time to decide whether they want to be together.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
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Originally Posted by Cain [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Yes.
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Originally Posted by Cain [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Yes.
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Originally Posted by Cain [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
He wouldn't think I lied to him because I don't lie to him, even when it would have been easier to lie.
Yes, but you are still very young and don't have kids. Your relationship can't be compared to mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I doubt he would do it, but if he did, nope. I wouldn't divorce him. There would be too much to lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I doubt it. I can't imagine anyone being worth more to me than my kids, and I am not going to be the one to wreck their family.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Until it happens in your relationship, you don't know how you'd react. You don't know how he'd react. All you can do right now is speculate.
Who said it hasn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
You've had drugs in your system? He's found drugs in your possession? Either of you have cheated on each other?Quote:
Originally Posted by shh! [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Haha! I was talking about the potential for instability. I don't do drugs, and after my last drinking episode, I've given up wine, too. :D
Of course I can't say for sure he hasn't cheated on me, but I'd be willing to stake my life on it. He isn't the type. And no, I haven't cheated.
That's what I'm saying. It's hard for you to compare one issue of instability with another. Until you actually experience it, you don't know if you'd break things off over it. You may say that you wouldn't now, but you won't know for sure until it happens.
This wasn't meant to be a "I can prove your relationship sucks" thread. I was just trying to agree with Mish that all relationships have the potential for instability and someone can break it up.
The point is: Don't mess with someone in a relationship.
Love is not unconditional, you said it yourself. There are a few things even you would be willing to end a relationship for (anyone would). Take for instance if you had advance knowledge that your partner is planning to kill you and your kids, how quickly would you be out the door if you knew something like that? That's just one extreme unlikely event. But truth is, there are many events less extreme and more likely. If one has very good knowledge and experinece on how to bring about four horsemen of doom into a relationship (taken from Indi's link) it will be extremely hard to keep a relationship stable.Quote:
Originally Posted by shh! [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Oh, no... I'm quite sure I wouldn't. I might stop sleeping with him, but I definitely wouldn't pursue divorce over this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
You guys are getting preposterous with your imagined scenarios. Planning to kill me and the kids? Planting drugs? hahahahahahahahahahah
They are just examples. You act as if your marriage is immune to divorce. Yours, apparently, is the only one. You should write a book as a guide for all future married couples so divorce goes away completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by shh! [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
An extreme and unlikely example. It won't happen. But we both know what would be the outcome if you had that knowledgeQuote:
Originally Posted by shh! [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
You may like the thought that you're so committed that you are beyond anybody's influence and your relationship lacks vulerabilities that can be successfully exploited. I personally think your certainty is only based on the fact that you haven't yet encountered someone who can successfully exploit these vulnerabilities and I hope you never will.
We are talking, real life normal people here you two. Extreme examples of scenarios do nothing to further your argument, they just make you desperate to prove your point.
Vash has made a *conscious decision* to stay committed to her marriage. So she will & that is all. Get it?
Unless of course, space aliens come to earth & threaten her & her family with vaporization unless she divorces her husband to become UberSpace-King Slorc's Sex Slave.
Then you'd be right, Cain.
I don't have a problem with this. Exclusivity = monogamy for as long as the present relationship lasts (but no *promises* about the future--get it?). THAT = commitment. What are you disagreeing with?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Damn it indi! You figured out our vulnerable spot!Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
:D :D :D
Cain - there is no great secret to staying married. You just refuse to consider divorce an option, and you marry someone who is like-minded. That would make for a pretty boring book, don't you think?
I'm done offering my opinion on this site since it's usually wrong.
On this site, or on this thread? :surprised
This website. More recently, my opinions have apparently been wrong. I'll take another hiatus. Maybe I'll come back in another few months.
Ciao.
No not desperate. It shows one instance where the seperation can happen, very quickly I might add. It opens up the perspective that it can happen no matter how much one tries to deny it.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
The future part. Exclusivity applies to both the present and the future for as long as the relationship exists. Before a person wants to mess with that they should end the relationship, then they can mess all they like.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
What about people like me who supported you? You can't leave me behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
If this is how you are going to handle disagreements in your relationship, then good luck to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
<sigh> Its so rare to find people who actually understand how to argue & not take it so damn personally. Its not about being right or wrong, you goof, its about opening your mind to another perspective. Don't freak out that there are other opinions out there besides yours. Vive la difference.
Mish, you're the best. If I were single & 15 years younger, I'd come to Australia just to find you. ;)
Okay, I understand the problem, but I don't know how to word it differently to explain. I need to think about this a bit more. Suffice it to say for now that what you think I'm saying isn't what I mean as regards future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Its more to do with being able to expect that person will still be around, say, 10/20/50 years later.
Exclusive means just that: for however long it lasts. No expectation that things *should* be lasting any longer.
Sorry, tired. Mbe someone else can say it better if they get what I mean.
I think I know what you mean Indi. That exclusivity can't be expected to last in the same way as commitment. And that there is no expectation as far as longevity of the relationship is concenred thus you put emphasis on the future. I agree with that by the way. That's why I put in the line "for as long as the relationship exists".Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
If you look at relationship as a contract (be it a verbal contract) then exclusivity is one of the main delivarables of this contract. The way I see it, the contract may be ended for various reasons, but for as long as this contract is in place the deliverables will continue being delivered.
As applied to relationships the way I see it, the fact that exclusivity exists doesn't mean that relationship shouldn't come to an end for whatever reason at some point in time in the future. But until it comes to an end both partners are bound by exclusivity. And the way I see it also, exclusivity extends way beyond the "we will not have sex with another person", it extends to a whole range of other acts that can be classified as cheating. This may include, but not limited to; making out, french kissing, urinating on one another (or other fetishes some peopel are into these days), emotional cheating (I think you had some articles on that somewhere), I would even go so far as include leading the other person on as an act of breaking exclusivity.
Personally this is the only way I can see how relationships can function and how both parties can build trust.
I'm not into stalkers, but if that was to occur I'd make sure I'm easy to find just for you ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Exclusivity will last IF combined with commitment. But until there is commitment, there is no guarantee. Without commitment, the relationship can end at any time either partner feels it necessary. At which point, exclusivity ends (unless they cheated). Like what you said. This is the best way I can explain, sorry, I didn't spend a lot of time:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
[Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
the reason is, is because everyone wants what they can't haveQuote:
Originally Posted by Cain [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I want a million dollars but I'm not going to steal it from the bank.Quote:
Originally Posted by cutiegeneral323 [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Right, but they could go out and find something similar, or even *gasp* better if they could just let go of whatever keeps leading them down these unproductive paths.
Most ppl in these situations know there's a problem, which makes it all the more strange that they continue beating on the glass to reach the flame. Its really just the thrill of the chase, in these cases. Once they get what they 'want' they often find they don't even want it anymore. Best to just leave off in the first place. But how many have the self-control for that? That's the lesson, I think for many of these cases: to learn the futility of changing anything except oneself. Its interesting, tho, b/c once you learn that, you can influence others, usually by example.