21th century is asian century.. do you think so?

I've done some searching on the net, Mish. Everything I can find about Chinese gunpowder-based weaponry is very vague. My understanding is that they didn't go terribly far with it. They may have used bombs and rudimentary firearms, but when did they discover gunpowder? Back in the 900's, right? I need to find a book or something on this subject.

In either case, how long did it take Great Britain to whip together the Maxim gun? How long before they had gigantic seaborne fortresses bristling with cannonades? Gunpowder was refined, new and better weapons were produced, and before terribly long the sun never set on the British Empire.

Even if China did use gunpowder for more than a few clay bombs and hand-bombards they still mostly warred amongst themselves. China's discoveries were laudable. However, it was the western world that ran with them.

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Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Sorry, there's too much to list, it's all in here

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_in_the_Islamic_world[/url]

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Mish, consider who might write this kind of article. This is the kind of thing about wiki that I have cautioned you about before.

I mention this b/c I happen to know that soap was not, contrary to the author of this article, invented by muslims. LOL.

Soap is made by animals drippings falling into the ash of old fires. Its a mixture of fat (drippings) & lye (ash). Its something that almost every culture who could make fire & hunted knew about. Also, they use the term 'soap-like detergent' and that just makes no sense. Tho it could be that whoever wrote that doesn't understand chemistry, which is another reason to be skeptical about the entry.

It could be that muslim cultures were the first to record it. I think that Persian & Egyptian medicine, literature, music, etc. was pretty advanced in its time. But they got completely screwed over by religion & it basically hamstrung them. Guns, Germs & Steel mentions this (I think) or mbe The God Delusion.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I also listed "muslim" as an example of an old power in my earliest posts.

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Rome was an old power. Britain, Spain, France, even America (tho American influence takes a different form). Even muslims as evidenced by their presence in countries such as Spain.

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I knew this would happen. Mish, I *explicitly* said that I'm not merely talking about inventions. Thats simply not enough to change the entire course of multiple cultures. Most of the examples you give do not really compare to the concepts I listed for sheer cultural revolution power (I don't pretend my list was exhaustive, but it was a pretty good one, I thought.)

I could have mentioned hundreds more inventions if that is all we were discussing. Russian space advances are great, you wouldn't get me in anything right now other than Soyuz tech, but they didn't *create* the concept of flight. We'd have to give that credit to the Wright brothers, or DaVinci for his uncanny prescient drawings. Or Newton, who I mentioned. They would have had a really hard time doing those calculations to get to orbit if it weren't for him.

Its what Gribble said. Invention = great. But what was done with it? How was it used & developed/expanded. If the Russians actually get humans off this planet & into space, THAT would be culture-changing in the most significant way. We'll have to see.

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In that case (using your example of flight) you have to admit that Chemistry and lots and lots of other great cultural developments and advances in almost every imaginable field as we know them today wouldn't not have existed if it wasn't for advances in the Islamic field. In other words almost everything material we have today is due to the sheer cultural revolution power of the Islamic world.

How about references to Mathematics, Physics, Medicine, Structure of education system, Philosophy, Law?


Indi, I'm sorry but I do believe you're talking out of your ass on this. Claiming that one culture has one revolutionary power over all others is so end of 19th century beginning of white power "eugenics theory" that honestly I expected a lot more out of you in this.

I never said it was one culture. I gave an entire list, including muslim influence. I said that, historically, asian (not = muslim, I would call that 'muslim, or middle eastern') culture has been centrist and not very influential in the development of world culture, as far as expanding its own unique concepts and influence.

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I also listed "muslim" as an example of an old power in my earliest posts.

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Yeh, but straight after that you claimed superiority of one culture above others and that's what really peeved me about your posts

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Well, if you make a list of the most influential ideas of all time (to date), I'm afraid its very heavily weighted towards Western culture. That's really what I'm saying as regards Asian culture. You are right, its certainly more than English (in fact, one could also argue strongly for German as far as ideas go). But just saying that its definitely NOT been asian influence as far as shaping the world. So far.

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If you think I'm claiming some 'white superiority' on this, ala DM, nope.

But I do stand by this statement

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if you make a list of the most influential ideas of all time (to date), I'm afraid its very heavily weighted towards Western culture.

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Feel free to add to the list, but as I say, the ideas should go beyond mere invention. They should be world-changing. I suppose we could include the internet in the list, but that's also a Western invention.

As for Old Inventions, it depends how far back you want to go. We could include African culture if you want to include the invention of fire?

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Feel free to add to the list

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Indi, I already have

If you don't consider what I posted and contents of links I already provided as a significant counterweight to western ideas. Not only counterweight, but that which helped to develop western ideas and ideologies in the shape and context they exist today then there's no further debating with you. You are claiming a cultural superiority and this has now entered a stage beyond the facts.

Its not that I don't think those inventions unimportant, but they don't describe the point I'm trying to make. Anyway, the failure to get my idea across is mine at this point and I *am* starting to flail a bit more than usual. So I'll go away from this a bit & think about how to say it better for now.

Meantime, someone else might get the gist of what I mean & can say it better. Its not about 'superiority' for me, tho I suppose some might argue thats an outcome. Its more to do with expansionist vs. centrist nations and the culture that results.

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

If you think I'm claiming some 'white superiority' on this, ala DM, nope.

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I don't believe in white supremacy at all. I am, however, not going to rewrite history to give credit where it doesn't belong. The vast majority of math and scientific advancements are from central and western Europe

Like I said before, in my linear algebra book the people that made contributions were all from France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, and Austria. The only appearance of anything outside of Europe was in the very first chapter on how the ancient Chinese solved systems of linear equations

Making that statement doesn't amount to supremacy of one group. It's just not being one of those dickwads today that thinks every culture or group brought an equal amount of food to the table

Oh and Indi, I completely agree with most of what you said. It's one of those things that shouldn't have to be put into words because people should be able to understand it on their own, but when they don't want to believe it and try to get you to put it into words it becomes harder to do because they spend time trying to poke holes into your argument where there aren't any and you spend vast amounts of time trying to correct them where at some point you'll get off topic or make a mistake

So why is it Asian century again?

I think Asia, Europe and the US will be equally as powerful in the future. Dominance leads to war almost always.

I wonder what would happen if Russia-China-Japan relations would bloom. You'd have the resources, the living space, the manpower and the technology.

Post-WWII grudges might still stuff that up though.

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Much as I admire Chinese culture, they did NOT bring that level of advancement to the the world. If they had, we'd be speaking Mandarin today, the way the world spoke Latin during the Roman era and English today.

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Rome was an old power. Britain, Spain, France, even America (tho American influence takes a different form). Even muslims as evidenced by their presence in countries such as Spain.

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You consider Spain, France, America, and Russia as "old power" yet not everyone is speaking Spanish, French, and Russia. Being an "Old power" doesn't mean everyone needs to speak your language.

And about the inventions...no work of modern invention is created completely by one person. Its usually the result of multiple scientists (from different nationalities) who works on it and improves it to the state that we can use today. Asia is no exception.

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Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Yeh, but straight after that you claimed superiority of one culture above others and that's what really peeved me about your posts

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I wasn't expecting this from Indi either. I mean, right off the bat she accuses a whole continent of people as being racist. I wouldn't even call it an "outlandish" remark. It's just pure stupidity.

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Originally Posted by DoesntMatter [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Oh and Indi, I completely agree with most of what you said. It's one of those things that shouldn't have to be put into words because people should be able to understand it on their own, but when they don't want to believe it and try to get you to put it into words it becomes harder to do because they spend time trying to poke holes into your argument where there aren't any and you spend vast amounts of time trying to correct them where at some point you'll get off topic or make a mistake

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Btw, DM you're so cute sometimes...the way you're so empathetic.

I want the Chinese to teach me to do this.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgHz4qWawNI"]YouTube - CTHD Jen vs. Lo in the Desert[/ame]

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Originally Posted by doppelgaenger [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

So why is it Asian century again?

I think Asia, Europe and the US will be equally as powerful in the future. Dominance leads to war almost always.

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Don't ignore my question

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Originally Posted by lastwish [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I wasn't expecting this from Indi either.

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It's so strange. Fair enough hearing it from DM he's young and he hasn't read much outside of his vacuum. But Indi is the first person who usually stands up against racism and superiority / inferiority complexes.. And yet, to fall into that whole Madison Grant ideology. It's complete ignorance, cherry picking of facts to support a world perspective and ignoring or diminishing of facts which seem unfavorable to it. I thought cultural and racial superiority were debunked long time ago. Seems like it's still here with us deeply rooted into people's psyches.

I'll be honest, the present worries me.


For anyone who is interested. Scientific racism still exists today in more areas than one and pushing cultural superiority is one of the tools at it's disposal. I found a lot of interesting information on it here, some things I didn't know [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism[/url]

I agree with Indi and DM. I can't stand people being so PC all the time. So goddamned sensitive. It's a form of intellectual dishonesty.

i never thought that india would ever be a world power...what a weird concept to me.

raverboy

Oh, stop it mish. I'm pretty sure you are well aware indi is not racist. It seems that rather than acting morally outraged, you might try a little harder to understand what she is trying to say.

I understand it all to well

i'd better hurry up and order my bride from china, before she'll be ordering US males online instead.

raverboy

Mish, I sometimes think you confuse how you'd like the world to *be* with how it actually IS.

If you or anyone else wants to believe I'm racist, then shrug. I'm secure enough to know that its not my failure at communication that is driving that conclusion. Obviously neither you (nor lastwish) has understood any of my other posts in older threads about how I see the role of asia in the world's future.

Anyway, this thread is generating some good discussion so I'm :)

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

If you or anyone else wants to believe I'm racist, then shrug. I'm secure enough to know that its not my failure at communication that is driving that conclusion. Obviously neither you (nor lastwish) has understood any of my other posts in older threads about how I see the role of asia in the world's future.

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I understood it, that's exactly why I was baffled to read some of the things you posted here. I could understand it coming from some of the others, but not you. I guess your standing on "cultural contributions to the world" caught me completely by surprise. I didn't call you racist by the way, I just pointed out where your conclusions are ultimately leading to (it's not a new subject matter and these conclusions usually lead to the same place)

I'm not going to argue any more. I can see a few feathers being ruffled by me saying that western culture (European culture) is not superior to all others and it didn't have the greatest contribution to the world of all and there is literature and facts to support that statement, so I'll just leave it at that.

Either Mish interpreted what Indie said better than anyone else here.

Or Mish misinterpreted what Indie said better than anyone else here.

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Originally Posted by lastwish [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Btw, DM you're so cute sometimes...the way you're so empathetic.

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... so you WILL have sex with me? ;)

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Originally Posted by Illusional [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

i'd better hurry up and order my bride from china, before she'll be ordering US males online instead.

raverboy

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That's a pretty hot thought... I'll have to remember it for later tonight

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Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

II thought cultural and racial superiority were debunked long time ago. Seems like it's still here with us deeply rooted into people's psyches.

I'll be honest, the present worries me.

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I completely agree. No person, no culture, is actually allowed to achieve more, be better than another. We ALL know that women are just as good at being firemen, and men CAN have babies if they really want. Damn the data, screw the facts. Ignore the fact that individual, species differences in ability falls on a gaussian curve, why not something in between, like culture (awful lot of *really* good marathon runners from Africa...).

In *my opinion* its this very attitude (don't stand out from the crowd) that has hamstrung Chinese (and other) cultures in history from achieving their true potential. But aside from that, here's a newsflash Mish:

[Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Ignore the fact that individual, species differences in ability falls on a gaussian curve, why not something in between, like culture (awful lot of *really* good marathon runners from Africa...).

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Because you're not just comparing apples to oranges, you are comparing apples to fish and then saying that apples are much better. The cultures are so much intertwined and symbiotically linked to one another that making a generalizing, sweeping statement that there is one culture superior to all, with most contributions to "world benefit" is ridiculously absurd. How can you even measure the said "World benefit"?

Not only absurd but false, which is worse.

Of course there is no such thing as a superior culture. Superiority in general in any form is bullshit

However, some countries have had far, far reaching consequences well outside their borders that others didn't. And I don't just mean music or dance or food, but political processes, scientific advancements, and economic fate

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Originally Posted by DoesntMatter [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Of course there is no such thing as a superior culture. Superiority in general in any form is bullshit

However, some countries have had far, far reaching consequences well outside their borders that others didn't. And I don't just mean music or dance or food, but political processes, scientific advancements, and economic fate

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And almost every single country in the world had those impacts. From Egypt, to Mesopatamia, to Rome, to Muslims, to Mongols surpassing all cultures and natural borders. You can't just say Russian culture had most influence because of how much influence itself received from east and west. You can't just say any European country (Or even Europe all together) had the most influence because of how much influence they themselves received from middle east and Asia.

An advancement is like an Olympic torch. It starts in one country, then it travels to another, then another, then another. Today one country is holding the torch in one field, tomorrow it will be another country. And if you trace back the torch to all the countries it went to before ending up in its current destination, you'll be amazed how far it had to travel to get to where it is now.

You really believe that, don't you Mish? That every culture has had so much influence and that some haven't had a lot more than others? As a result I won't be able to convince you otherwise because you are oblivious to the facts



I think it would be a lot easier if you were to stop talking about culture and start talking about math and scientific achievements, or size of economic markets in more recent times. Things easier to measure

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Originally Posted by DoesntMatter [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I think it would be a lot easier if you were to stop talking about culture and start talking about math and scientific achievements, or size of economic markets in more recent times. Things easier to measure

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Sure, we can talk about that. Perhaps in modern times there are some countries holding the torch in certain fields. But that won't last forever. All of that is subject to change and there are changes already happening. Egypt, Rome, Islamic empire were all beacons of light, with most amount of wealth, power and technology for a period of time. Where are they now?

History repeats itself.

Mish.

You need to live a less sheltered life.

Dude I totally do :D

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Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

that making a generalizing, sweeping statement that there is one culture superior to all

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The only problem with your argument, Mish?

I NEVER SAID THIS^. Thank you, those who actually get this.

You are standing on a soap box of your own making, Mish. If you want to rant about inequality, etc. fine, but don't grasp for position with something I never actually said.

That is all.

Just get a life so you don't have to have pointless arguments about such things.

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

The only problem with your argument, Mish?

I NEVER SAID THIS^.

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You were heavily leaning in that direction when you said that most influential ideas in the world of all time to date are weighted "very heavily" in favour of western (assuming European) culture. That's only one sentence away from saying western culture is superior to others because most influential ideas of all time are weighted very heavily in it's favour.

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Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Sure, we can talk about that. Perhaps in modern times there are some countries holding the torch in certain fields.

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Well, I'm glad you are finally admitting this. :P

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But that won't last forever.

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Well, duh. Isn't that what this whole thread is about?

Mish, sometimes you remind me, of Ellsworth Toohey. That's not a compliment, btw. You and Eco both. In her case, its more about naivety. In yours, I'm less sure.

Anyway, I'm going to post what basically summarizes my thoughts about this subject. And, for those who are keen to see asian culture becoming more dominant, pay attention. I think its lack of understanding this concept which has been holding you back from achieving even more than you have.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkAz8rw8kqY"]YouTube - The Fountainhead - Roark's Courtroom Speech[/ame]

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Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

You were heavily leaning in that direction when you said that most influential ideas in the world of all time to date are weighted "very heavily" in favour of western (assuming European) culture. That's only one sentence away from saying western culture is superior to others because most influential ideas of all time are weighted very heavily in it's favour.

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So?

I don't get how he doesn't get, that there's nothing wrong with this.

I feel like he would cry if he watched one sport's team beat another, rather than settle for a tie so they could all go off to the locker rooms and suck each other off.

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Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

So?

I don't get how he doesn't get, that there's nothing wrong with this.

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There is because it's false. It's not true. It's a false statement. It's equivalent of saying earth is all time to this day more influential than the sky.

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Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

There is because it's false. It's not true. It's a false statement. It's equivalent of saying earth is all time to this day more influential than the sky.

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So you're saying that in the history of mankind, there has never been a culture or civilization that was more or less influential than another?

Ever?

Ever?

Ever?

Never ever?

You know I'm building you up so I can strike you down, right?