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Guantanamo.. how far will we go to protect American interests?
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm-tFt3Itoc"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]
*This video/post does not necessarily reflect my view on the debate over torture; but I thought I'd share it.
By the way, talking about taxpayer money and cutting costs. Here s an interesting article examining costs of incarceration vs legal execution in US, one of the few western countries which have a legalized execution system:Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I can give you an idea why the death penalty costs so much and then I will give you some state examples and sources.
To begin with, the huge extra expense of the death penalty comes upfront, before and during the initial trial (and is much less as a result of appeals.) Here are just a few of the contributing factors:
• more pre-trial time will be needed to prepare: cases typically take a year to come to trial
• more pre-trial motions will be filed and answered
• more experts will be hired
• twice as many attorneys will be appointed for the defense, and a comparable team for the prosecution
• jurors will have to be individually quizzed on their views about the death penalty, and they are more likely to be sequestered
• two trials instead of one will be conducted: one for guilt and one for punishment
• the trial will be longer: a cost study at Duke University estimated that death penalty trials take 3 to 5 times longer than typical murder trials
Some examples:
Washington State:
•At the trial level, death penalty cases are estimated to generate roughly $470,000 in additional costs to the prosecution and defense over the cost of trying the same case as an aggravated murder without the death penalty and costs of $47,000 to $70,000 for court personnel.
(Final Report of the Death Penalty Subcommittee of the Committee on Public Defense, Washington State Bar Association, December 2006,
[url]http://www.wsba.org/lawyers/groups/committeeonpublicdefense.htm[/url])
....
[url]http://www.ansarasra.org/incarceration/why-would-an-execution-cost-more-than-incarceration[/url]
Taxpayers pay for their OWN citizens, Mish. YOU are the one that doesn't understand this very simple point. Not a penny of my taxes go towards your country. Therefore, I don't claim Australian tax or health, I don't vote in Oz and I can't sit on one of your juries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Simply put, Mish, this uninvited terrorist is not from US society. He has not been invited to participate in US society. Terrorists of this kind are intruders, of the most deadly sort. They, nor their families, are in no way connected to taxpayers of US society. They do not respect its values or society, they have not contributed to society. Therefore, they are not entitled to its benefits, which includes things like a trial by peers and prison.
Apologist that you are, tho, you probably don't want these criminals extradited to face the justice system of their own country either. :P
Indi, I wasn't talking about the rights of this particular criminal, I was talking about the benefits to the society in the form of protection of human rights, prevention of home grown radicalization, as well as other benefits described in the entry level legal studies. Can you please read my posts in their entirety before replying.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I thought you were continuing to respond to this post, which was about the recent attempt to blow up a plane over US soil. Most posts about it were regarding the failed human matchstick.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Since then our discussion has shifted to "incarceration vs death penalty". With the post you quoted I was replying directly to this post you made.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I cited a number of reasons against legal execution and in favour of incarceration which included lower costs to taxpayers.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Well, then I answered you. In response to my question: Why should taxpayers pay for their incarceration?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
You posted this
But its NOT the same reason. Terrorists are not citizens. Criminals are, like it or not, products of our society. But if I go to another country and break their laws they can do whatever they like to me. Other than the Geneva Convention (ha, and who will enforce it?) I have NO rights. That young man who got caned in Singapore? C'est la vie. You travel, you better be prepared to accept the situation you might find yourself in.Quote:
For the same reasons why taxpayers pay for incarceration of criminals.
So, the simple solution then. Extradite them to their country's authority (which is often the death penalty, so its all good). Cost of a plane ticket is much less than 20+ years of prison.
Because that's the lowest cost they can pay under the current legislation.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
If they end up in a western country they are subject to the laws of the western country. I think it's obvious. If the country doesn't have legalized execution then they won't be executed. If they are subject to the country's legal execution laws, then they will have to go through the motions and the tax payers will incur above mentioned costs (And that's only one of the downsides).Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
As far as extradition goes, yeh it's an option. Though the western country loses control as to what will happen to the criminal at that point, maybe he'll get executed, maybe he'll get released.
They actually weren't as bloodthirsty as you might imagine. In the tenth century when most of Europe was still in the dark ages, Cordoba the Muslim capital in Spain was one of the most advanced cities in the world and functioned as a cultural, economic and political center. The libraries and universities of Andalusia were visited by scholars from around the world and some like Michael Scott who took their knowledge acquired in there to Italy heralded the beginning of European Renaissance.Quote:
Originally Posted by CAM [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
The Inquisitions that came later however were as you said both cruel and disgusting. People did live in fear of legal torture and execution by those who would later be rewarded for their "services towards the betterment of society". In contrast to the flourishing education centers during Muslim rule, scholars indicate that one of the main effects of the inquisition was to end free thought and scientific thought in Spain. People were executed for blasphemy, "performing miracles", for "questionable morale values" and contradicting the establishment. This was mainly because both extra judicial execution and torture was legal and widely accepted as necessary in the society. Such is the predicament of a country that follows a path of tyranny, the first ones to pay the price are the ordinary people. It's sad to see how quickly people forget.
****, I don't give a ****. Terrorists killing the people of other terrorists, WHO CARES?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pettit-Papillon [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Oh shut up.Quote:
Originally Posted by boobaa [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Well, here you go Mish:
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/us/07indict.html[/url]
For the record I don't oppose this guy to be tried as a criminal or an enemy combatant, the two options described in that article. What I oppose is extra judicial, unlawful execution and torture suggested by some in this thread. Something that would undermine the rights of everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I don't agree with a lot of Kit Bond's opinions, but on this issue I do. This guy is not a US criminal and shouldn't be treated like one.