Inner Game

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Yes, of course. You need to meet TONS of girls to figure out: 1. what you actually want, 2. how to meet her. But beware that you don't lose someone really great in the process of using 'the game'. Sometimes, luck happens & she will be there sooner than you expect, life can be unpredictable that way. I would suggest you pick & choose from the methods you read & avoid turning away someone who might be your 'keeper' by avoiding the 'asshole' techniques. GS may tell you to ignore this advice, but remember the context: he isn't coming from a place of a successful LTR.

Personally, I was much more attracted to men like Sphinx, Mish, Fras or Cam (my husband is this sort) who has confidence w/o these games. But the dilemma is *getting* to that point of confidence, I understand. And I think there is SOME benefit to some of these confidence techniques to separate the wheat from the chaff. Particularly focus on the ones that involve YOUR self-control (as opposed to controlling others--that's just ego sop).

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Indi, my approach was largely Eriksonian, passive, and I was more interested in OV reaching his own goals & realizations.. YOU on the other hand, ironically, have taken a more aggressive NLP approach.. and you call ME the "asshole"? Anyway.. i'm not going to bother entertaining that little detail.. I know we're both reasonable people.. And I can't begin to appologize for the conflict of interest I constantly place myself in.. On one hand, I do want to help.. help guys like OV, like opaka, like DM.. who are great guys.. and are constantly being tooled by other guys, or by other women (directly or indirectly).. on the other hand.. Some women ARE animals.. and they deserve no better than basic dog-training.. but I no longer bother with such women as potential LTRs.. nor do I encourage other guys to.. I have more strait female friends than male friends.. and I wouldn't want someone doing these things to them.. Naturally, I would be frustrated too.. so I completely understand your frustration to what i'm saying.. but it's the conflict I have to dive into..

but this thread wasn't at all about that.. perhaps you unintentionally overlooked the little detail that i've been stressing ever since this thread started that it's about "Inner" game.. OV's self-control/internal reality/state of mind.. having NOTHING to do with external presentation.. having NOTHING to do with tactics or games.. just self awareness and realization..

The importance of "Inner" game is monumentally greater and more important than any little gambits that have worked in the past.. That's because with "Inner" game.. there is no acting.. there are no games.. there are no tactics.. all it is.. is self awareness.. perfect and total self awareness.. and through that, geniune and unlimited confidence..

THAT'S why I stressed that I can't make him into someone he's not.. because there's nothing fake or artificial about it.. and there's nothing aggressive on my part about it.. is there a premeditated conversational element involved.. YES.. and I even told OV so in the very beginning.. before this thread existed.. but it was HE who created it.. knowing very well what we were about to do.. I told him explicitly before-hand.. but "Inner" game can only be reached by OV and him alone! That's why all I can offer is ONLY a very passive approach.. letting him realize all he has to about himself..

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

GS, if you navigate this site, use your power for good, not evil, okay? ;)

[url]http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=9750&cn=353[/url]

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Quick point.. OV does NOT have a "problem"..

Secondly.. I think you misunderstand where i'm comming from.. if you think my goal is to be evil.. if you think I live to "punish" women and throw their games back to them.. for the most part.. that's not at all my goal (the only exceptions are women who REALLY deserve it.. which is very rare.. I think there was some girl from the UK that i'd place into that category, Foxy-something.. ugh)

I only help people who deserve it.. guys AND girls.. and if you think i'm cruel to women.. I should get my friend Carla to tell you what custom-made roller-coaster rides i've told her to put this guy through.. (he beat her, he deserved it)

In the beginning, yes, it's a battle for control.. try handing a child dynamite and see how fast it'll try and light it up.. as Milton Erikson said "with great power comes great responsibility".. dominance and total control can be intoxicating.. but that's the intoxication of "outer" game.. that's simply not real.. I STRONGLY advocate "inner" game.. because it's self-awareness.. it's mutual respect amung two mature people.. and that's really the objective.. the objective is NEVER to play games to dominate and control.. the goal is "no games" and to conclude to a state of mutual respect..

And it's not something exclusive to relationships at all.. The best example is actually work! But for this purpose, i've already painted a crystal clear picture of OV's value and power.. but i'm not interested in shoving it down his throat.. it's not even important what "I" see.. what's important is what OV sees in himself.. what he realizes about himself.. and that he's constantly fully aware and completely content & satisfied.. It's not only important to come off as more attractive and genuine.. but it also makes for a better relationship..

It must be mentally exhausting to suspect the world is full of game-players that you have to out-maneuver. I find it much more pleasurable to avoid those kind of people, which doesn't strike me as being all that hard to do.

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Originally Posted by GrkScorp [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

And it's not something exclusive to relationships at all.. The best example is actually work! But for this purpose, i've already painted a crystal clear picture of OV's value and power.. but i'm not interested in shoving it down his throat.. it's not even important what "I" see.. what's important is what OV sees in himself.. what he realizes about himself.. and that he's constantly fully aware and completely content & satisfied.. It's not only important to come off as more attractive and genuine.. but it also makes for a better relationship..

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So how do I do that? I haven't really learned anything. I answered some question which really mean nothing to me. I don't know what else to say. Though, as far as the debate goes...I agree and think that I need some help with social interaction. I missed something back in high school because I just stuck around the same 2 or 3 friends...yea, I was one of those people. Now, your story example with the girl that you liked was interesting but isn't like mine all though similar. I one day simply walked into class and saw her. The world stood still since that day. I was scared shit less to do anything about it even though she sent signals like a landing strip for an airplane. 2 years of waiting for me she managed to pull out...can you believe that? I saw her holding back her tears sometimes. and she was cute on her own cause clearly other guys were trying as well. 2 years after all of a sudden she decides it is time to start dating, I am sure it has something to do with her bullshit girlfriends telling her that this is just nothing but a crush..women buy into that crap. As I walk past her I notice that spark in her eye is gone, she doesn't care anymore...nothing hurt worse than that. The guy she starts dating is completely using these tricks, the way he approached her and everything was fake as shit. She bought into it though, she was tired of waiting. Was I angry at him? for a little while...but than my hatred turned towards her..than when I realized she waited two years...the hatred turned towards me. So years later I thought I would be over it, I would get another chance...but nothing...no one like her, no one to replace her, and only haunting thoughts of her and the mistakes I made...and the dreams of what should have been. No one understand the miserable existence of a love life I had to lead. Funny thing is, I have had no problem pushing myself in life in every other category where these other players have usually failed. The guy she was dating now works at a hot dog stand, when I saw him recently he remembered me...he seemed embarrassed about something..I have no clue why as I didn't really know him...I asked him how she is doing figuring he will have no clue that I really didn't talk to her and apparently he wasn't dating her anymore. That didn't help at all as than I knew she was just being played by men because of me. I am making awesome money, I have a rewarding and prestiges career, and I still have a great family. I can't forget the way she looked at me though. Now I don't know what to do...there is a part of me that wants to just learn some trick to get to know women FAST and just basically screw with them...no remorse...I have had none from her or anyone. I don't feel like a chance for a LTR exists in the first place.

sorry about the rambling, I can't believe I said all this.

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Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

It must be mentally exhausting to suspect the world is full of game-players that you have to out-maneuver. I find it much more pleasurable to avoid those kind of people, which doesn't strike me as being all that hard to do.

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You just have to protect yourself against them, try actually competing with them. That is far more frustrating.

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Originally Posted by GrkScorp [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Quick point.. OV does NOT have a "problem"..

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Fergodsake GS, get over yourself already. I never said OV had a problem, it is just a site that has some interesting information about how to change one's thinking. The url of the site is immaterial, the info may or may not be useful but its data.

The evil comment was a joke (hence the wink). You are right, tho. I did deliberately psych you (only a tiny amount, really) & I'm sorry; its unpleasant tho, isn't it? Point made? I think so.

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Originally Posted by Only-virgins [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

So how do I do that? I haven't really learned anything. I answered some question which really mean nothing to me. I don't know what else to say.

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LOL. Not laughing at you, OV, just that I predicted this comment.

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Though, as far as the debate goes...I agree and think that I need some help with social interaction. I missed something back in high school because I just stuck around the same 2 or 3 friends...yea, I was one of those people.

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OV, I *really* understand this. Deja vu, lol. JOIN something, a group, something you enjoy that you will meet ppl. A dojo, a music group, a cooking/art/language class. I know it sounds hokey, but Toastmasters groups are REALLY good for building up speaking confidence (also good for your career). These are just ideas I have, others may have better/more suitable ones?

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As I walk past her I notice that spark in her eye is gone, she doesn't care anymore...nothing hurt worse than that. The guy she starts dating is completely using these tricks, the way he approached her and everything was fake as shit. She bought into it though, she was tired of waiting. Was I angry at him? for a little while...but than my hatred turned towards her..than when I realized she waited two years...the hatred turned towards me.

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OV, she was young, you were young. You made a mistake. Forgive yourself, and her for crissake already. Let it GO, man.

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So years later I thought I would be over it, I would get another chance...but nothing...no one like her, no one to replace her, and only haunting thoughts of her and the mistakes I made...and the dreams of what should have been. No one understand the miserable existence of a love life I had to lead. Funny thing is, I have had no problem pushing myself in life in every other category where these other players have usually failed. The guy she was dating now works at a hot dog stand, when I saw him recently he remembered me...he seemed embarrassed about something..I have no clue why as I didn't really know him...I asked him how she is doing figuring he will have no clue that I really didn't talk to her and apparently he wasn't dating her anymore. That didn't help at all as than I knew she was just being played by men because of me.

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Okay, OV, this is full of all kinds of wrong-thinking. It may be your feelings, but your logic around them is totally messed up. I'm sure others will be able to explain this to you. Be back later tho to help out too if I can.

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I am making awesome money, I have a rewarding and prestiges career, and I still have a great family.

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These are your your strengths. You have more also.

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...there is a part of me that wants to just learn some trick to get to know women FAST and just basically screw with them...no remorse...I have had none from her or anyone.

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You didn't have ANYTHING with her. Again, this is wrong-thinking.

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I don't feel like a chance for a LTR exists in the first place.

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Again, wrong thinking OV. Makes me think of that Gretzky hockey quote: 'You will miss 100% of the shots you never take'.

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Sorry about the rambling, I can't believe I said all this.

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Its okay, OV, we all really like you. Everyone wants to try to help if we can. Lots of diverse experience on here, so hopefully something will click. But ultimately, this will have to come from you.

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Originally Posted by Only-virgins [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I can't forget the way she looked at me though. Now I don't know what to do...there is a part of me that wants to just learn some trick to get to know women FAST and just basically screw with them...no remorse...I have had none from her or anyone. I don't feel like a chance for a LTR exists in the first place.

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OV, what might help you is the "cave man" (I.e. The way I get after a few shots and pints of amber fluid in a club) You act as if the world is part of your cave and is there solely for you to explore and play with. When you approach an attractive girl you approach with confidence and certainty as if she's already into you. Doesn't matter what she looks like or who or what she thinks she is. She's lucky, because you happen to find her attractive and grace her with your attention. Once you think like that, your whole attitude changes. You can get dozens of girls like her just like that if you want, but what the hell you're a nice guy so you'll do her a favour and talk to her. You no longer worry about right and wrong, you're no longer nervous or bound by your own consciousness, you just act natural with certainty that what you do is awesome. You project confidence, dominance, certainty that you are a master of your own domain , you are reliable and you can get things done. And most importantly you give everything a shot. This attitude radiates well and lots of girls seems to pick up on it and be attracted to it. Don't ask me why, just know that it works :)

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

The evil comment was a joke (hence the wink). You are right, tho. I did deliberately psych you (only a tiny amount, really) & I'm sorry; its unpleasant tho, isn't it? Point made? I think so.

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I'm sorry to disappoint you Indi, and I mean no disrespect from this, but as cute and amusing as it is to watch you think you've pulled one.. my entire focus is on OV for this thread.. but if it puts a smile on your face.. the least I can do is play along "oh! you got me!" :P

Now.. back to OV..

OV, i'm going to throw out something your way.. and take it as you see fit.. but from what you've said so far..

It was really interesting to notice that she was the most embarrassing moment of your life, and understandably so.. But what was really interesting, was when you said you were scared sh*tless, even though she sent you more signals than a landing strip.. Trying to rationalize this "fear", naturally one would look at what you'd have to suffer a loss from.. What reasonable damage you'd suffer.. And as you spend more time trying to think about it, you can help but notice that you can't really find a meaningful rationalization.. In fact, when you think about it, realistically, you had nothing to suffer a loss of.. The issue then popped up of you considering yourself as not being a risk-taker.. I have to admit.. I was just as convinced as you at first.. But then I took a moment to consider what it really means to attempt and finish a Master's degree.. I remember what it felt like to first apply to the Master's program.. every class I took carried with it the risk of failure, the risk of destroying my GPA, the risk of not finishing the program, not finding a job, losing potential income, and so on and so forth.. But we did it.. YOU did it.. and when you did.. How did you feel? Accomplished..

I struggled to make some sense of this inconsistency, until I looked deep into what it ment to list "Success" as one of your best qualities, and place it first.. Success, is a state of mind.. There's a vision, a goal, and a plan on how to reach that goal.. that's the basis for successful thinking.. And like you've demonstrated, that's in fact a very rare (it really is) and admirable quality to be proud of.. but not because of the (outcome), but because of the state of mind! You have the state of mind it takes to be successful in not just what you naturally put your mind to focus on.. but ANYTHING you let your mind focus on.. If you wanted to build a house, you could probably do it.. If you wanted to start a company, you could probably do it.. and if you wanted to attract women, you'll notice how easily you can shift that focus and be able to do it..

So, what's holding you back? In short, YOU are.. but for slightly more subtle reasons than you'd think.. The second quality on your list is "respectful of others".. While you think about what exactly that means to you, I found it interesting how you described that girl's ex-bf.. He was largely game-playing, non-genuine, unsuccessful, and in one sense, disrespectful.. This was obviously exactly the type of guy you didn't want to be, even if it ment getting her! Why? Because you identify yourself as "respectful of others".. and if those are the "means" to that end, you'd rather not.. That's understandable.. and I strongly agree.. "outer game" is novice.. "inner game" is where the magic & power of "attraction" lies..

But why the freeze-up? For two years? That's the gist of this whole tango OV.. Your misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the qualities that make you great.. YES! You still ARE "respectful of others".. but what exactly does that mean? Surely it doesn't mean not talking to others because you want to be polite and not be rude by "bothering" them.. Quiet and respectful are not the same.. Respect is something that takes place actively, not passively.. respect is being aware of the feelings of others, the weaknesses of others, and having the ability to tear them apart, to toy with them, but instead, being responsible and considerate enough to choose to refrain from doing so.. To a large degree, being respectful to others is not congruent to being timid.. Humans are social creatures, in need of affection, attention, validation, and love.. Would you consider it respectful to see someone in need of such things, and deprive them of even the most basic forms of affection?

Obviously.. not.. and that all becomes apparent, and ties in completely with the moment you felt great about yourself.. The first time you had sex.. On a very basic level, yes, your human needs were met for the first time, you reached a milestone in your life, and were able to enjoy that experience with a special person.. But there are two additional layers to this.. The first is the thrill of success.. don't forget, you're a scan/sum type.. your mind's model of learning takes information in bulk, it chops out details like a butcher.. you're quite content with that being the cost of efficient thinking.. But you noticed the process unfold before your eyes, the events that led to sex.. It satisfied your desire to set out to get what you want.. and to get it.. (your successful, state of mind).. But what's more interesting.. and I don't know if you'll realize this right away, or if it may take some time before it sinks in.. to notice your desire to be "respectful of others".. For years you misunderstood the meaning of this quality you identified yourself with.. up until this point.. it took a while.. sex felt awkward initially, but then started to become fun.. you started to feel a sense of fulfilling the needs of the other person.. affection, attention, validation, love, and at that moment.. sexual lust..

So, naturally.. i'm sure you can start to slowly see what's been holding you back..

All these years.. perhaps by accident, perhaps by cultural programming, maybe religion or parenting, or even just a simple misunderstanding of what it ment exactly to be "respectful of others".. you held yourself back, because when you identified yourself as "respectful of others".. you took it to mean not like those other pig/dog men.. but in doing so.. at some point, and to some degree.. you crossed the line.. you pushed the meaning of the phrase so much that you took it to mean "reserved, polite, nice"..

That was natural.. you didn't want to associate yourself with feeling like those other guys who you considered to be jerks.. But what you perhaps overlooked was that these guys were jerks for maybe many OTHER reasons.. In doing so.. for those two years.. the girl looked at you, practically begged you.. but you stood frozen.. NOT because you didn't have that (success, state of mind) to get what you wanted.. NOT because you didn't deserve someone like her.. and NOT for any other reason your mind can't begin to come up with.. the reason was simple.. You simply didn't want to feel and come off as those guys you didn't want to associate yourself with.. You didn't know what to do.. so you thought you were just being respectful by not being like those other guys..

I know it's a lot to take in.. but the first thing you may find interesting is that, the first person you felt hate towards was "him".. as you first started to feel a mix of frustration and confusion for why she would fall for someone like him.. at some point, you realized that it wasn't his fault.. you then temporarily felt hate towards her; that's understandable.. she was the source of those bad emotions at that moment.. but you eventually found yourself finally feeling hate for yourself.. unable to rationalize it fully and completely.. until now.. It's amazing how the mind sometimes speaks in code.. but it never fails to cry out.. and yours didn't.. you felt that hate.. and it felt very real.. but now that you think back on it, it's understandable how you almost can't help but laugh at it..

Since that time.. you've had success in ALL areas of your life.. you've realized that you do take risks, risks that bear serious consequences if failure takes place.. and you've also seen the rewards from taking those risks.. be it an advanced degree.. a successful job.. earning potential.. or sex.. the important thing to notice for yourself is that you've actually already seen the change you want for yourself..

And today.. I can only hope you've started to realize what "respectful of others" really means to you.. This is a lot to take in for one day OV.. but if you're reading this far down.. you'll be happy to know that there's not much left to say.. It's really up to you at this point.. We're miles away.. and I can't tell exactly when you're going to start feeling this change.. It seems to me that you've already started feeling it.. but what's really important is how it seems to YOU.. i'm not going to lie.. these things do take time.. there are a few people who feel that realization about themselves instantly.. (I hate those people too, we all do).. but for normal people, it does take a couple of days to sink in.. just like anything I guess.. But after it does.. you shouldn't just sit there feeling great about yourself.. I mean, yes, take a moment and do that.. but go out there and explore for yourself what it really means to be "respectful of others"..

Like you've heard me say before..

"I hear, and I know.. I see, and I understand.. I do, and I learn"

Best,

GrkScorp

Okay GS, you aren't getting this. I promised OV I would back off you, but you need to understand your format is wrong for his mindset. Besides, everything you posted, all that psychobabble, I already summarized (w/a lot fewer words, lol) in a post in another thread earlier.

If you really want to help OV (and I can't in this, b/c frankly I'm waay off the dating market else I would) here's the format:

1. Provide a concrete example.

2. BRIEFLY explain why the example works and/or what he might expect from this.

He's a scientist. Scientists already know how to DO by experiment. You're not telling him anything he doesn't already know. He wants to know WHAT TO DO, as many different examples as possible so he can pick/choose from them. Did you not understand how quickly he tried that 'back off' technique w/that girl in the other thread? Mish gave a good example above; this is the kind of help, I think, that OV is looking for.

Lemme know if I'm wrong, OV, but I think that's about it in a nutshell.

Good luck guys, and good night. :)

only scorp could pack so much bullshit into one thread

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

1. Provide a concrete example.

2. BRIEFLY explain why the example works and/or what he might expect from this.

He's a scientist. Scientists already know how to DO by experiment. You're not telling him anything he doesn't already know. He wants to know WHAT TO DO, as many different examples as possible so he can pick/choose from them.

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First of all.. the whole point was so this is not a "tactics" thread.. OV knows that if all he wants are tactics, all he needs to do is ask..

I could sit here for weeks and give him examples and case studies of what's happened with me and other guys.. why it happened.. the subcommunication and thought process that was taking place.. blah blah.. but that wouldn't really help..

That's just throwing tactics at OV in hopes that he'll remember a handfull and apply a couple at the right moment.. In short, that's not OV being himself..

That's why I advocate "Inner" game.. (I think the word "game" is throwing you off).. There's nothing fake about inner game.. And yes.. it's very frustrating for guys to go through the process.. women go through it much better.. guys want hard facts, quick little tactics they can use on the field that have already been tested to work.. and they overlook the value of this..

Honestly.. the reason I strongly advocate Inner game is because when OV, but not just OV, anyone for that matter.. crushes those limiting beliefs they have about themselves, those misconceptions, or anything that's holding them back.. well, then they're simply not held back anymore..

In OV, I could see a situation where i'd break down kino to a science for him.. and i'm sure Sphinx would do the same.. but something inside OV would either prevent him from using it, or would have him hesitate and use it after that open window.. or worse! he might just use it dogmatically when the vibe isn't right at all..

That's the tragedy with going caveman on american girls.. European & Latin american girls are all for it.. if they're in the states, one thing they miss and die for is a MAN.. but personally, I wouldn't go caveman on an american girl until at least 30mins into the interaction.. (and after plenty of kino build-up).. there are some women though where you can just tell, they want to be cavemanned..

The only part of Inner game that's left for OV is when he starts to feel what we've talked about.. and after he sees the difference it makes in his life.. even the little things, especially the little things.. and he gets a little comfortable with that realization.. (because what's important to realize is that defenition and interpretation of what he considers to be "respectful").. but when he's comfortable with that.. the capstone is "state of mind" & "mentality".. which is sort of like the caveman example..

To be honest with you.. I used to be a total push-over nice guy.. and it wasn't until DeAngelo stressed the importance of Inner game that I changed.. But my realization didn't take place with women.. it took place in the NYC subway system.. NYC was a playgroud to break out of nice-guy-overly-polite-push-over mode.. People would walk on the sidewalk and try and walk on the right side (where i'd have to walk by).. but instead of move out of the way (something I used to do before).. I would stand there, look them in the eye as if to tell them "you're going to have to move, because i'm not moving, you have your side of the sidewalk, this one is mine".. And you know what? I was blown away, but EVERYONE would move.. there were some spiteful people which found it hard on their ego.. but instead of not moving, they would just try and brush arms or bump shoulders while walking past me.. On the subway.. (I would have to push through and excuse myself amung the masses).. but now I would just walk strait down.. Looking at everyone in the eye, then the floor, as if to tell them to move.. to imply it would be rude/uncivilized of them if they didn't.. and in a non-comfrontational manner, they all moved aside.. Something so little, so small, so simple.. was actually life changing..

In college, law school, work, and even with friends.. everyone looked towards me when they needed someone assertive.. friends walked behind me as I paved the way for them through the masses of NYC.. co-workers looked to me as a means to get some change around the office.. in college and law school.. other students looked towards me for leadership (something I actually never had in HS).. and the very last thing that followed from all of that.. was this attitude and mentality that women picked up on like fish formula.. (which means they also pick up on the wrong mentality like 7 month old garbage)

That's what I learned.. and that's mostly what a lot of guys learned.. everyone had their own story, their own history, their own experience.. but in the end, the issue was very similar.. From a young age, we did the mistake of associating "good & nice" with "weak, submissive, reserved, quiet".. maybe because of religion, or parenting, or harsh schooling, or simply not wanting to be like those guys we considered "jerks" who were anything BUT "weak, submissive, reserved, quiet"..

And as I realized that.. I noticed that this alone (inner game) was the entire game.. all other tactics/strategy/games were dwarfed in the face of inner game.. this was powerful.. because it was genuine.. because it was complete and total self-awareness.. from that came confidence (real confidence).. came assertiveness, a powerful pressence that radiated like an aura everyone could pick up on.. and microcal (microcalibration) where people became easy to read & understand.. AFTER that point, were games/tactics/strategy of any use.. because before that, I would have simply come off like a bad actor saying lines from a script he was reading for the first time.. but after that.. you're just a guy who's fully aware of the world around him.. the people around him.. the thoughts they're thinking.. the motives they have.. and they all seem like clay.. waiting to be molded.. and the "tactics" you learn from that point.. are much like your "tools" to mold these balls of clay into anything you want.. (that's IF you want to mold them).. but notice that even if you don't have these tactics at your disposal.. you still see the world in such a way.. and honestly.. that ALONE.. can give you the results you're looking for..

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Originally Posted by GrkScorp [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

First of all.. the whole point was so this is not a "tactics" thread.. OV knows that if all he wants are tactics, all he needs to do is ask..

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He did. Explicitly. You're just not paying attention, GS, you've gone off on this psych tangent that is all about you despite your claims to the contrary. You are so keen to share your knowledge you don't understand that's not what was asked for.

The following are ALL from OV's original post in this thread:

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Originally Posted by Only-virgins

Whatever it is I have been doing wrong I want to know.

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Originally Posted by Only-virgins

If the conversation is going no where what do I do? what do I say? and how do I say it?

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Originally Posted by Only-virgins

Just maybe this thread will be helpful to all the people making threads along the lines of "I like a girl but how do I approach her, what do I do, and what and how do I say it?"

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Originally Posted by Only-virgins

Is there anything I can actually say to this girl when I see her tomorrow to regain my interest and maybe get things moving?

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Originally Posted by Only-virgins

I know everyone has some kind of experience or idea to add, so you better tell it and add it or burn in hell for all eternity haha.

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Sounds to me like he's asking for specific examples.

I don't think you need to generate pages on this, GS (please, God no), just pick a few examples that explain some general principles & might give him some ideas about the questions he asked. Like what Mish did, that was a good one.

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Like what Mish did, that was a good one.

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:emot133:

...........................................

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Originally Posted by GrkScorp [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Honestly.. the reason I strongly advocate Inner game is because when OV, but not just OV, anyone for that matter.. crushes those limiting beliefs they have about themselves, those misconceptions, or anything that's holding them back.. well, then they're simply not held back anymore..

In OV, I could see a situation where i'd break down kino to a science for him.. and i'm sure Sphinx would do the same.. but something inside OV would either prevent him from using it, or would have him hesitate and use it after that open window.. or worse! he might just use it dogmatically when the vibe isn't right at all..

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But again, GS, you are playing psychologist here & that's not what was asked for. Why not let him experiment w/a few techniques & he can ASK if he wants the deeper explanation. You're not giving him credit for being able to work this out himself. Afterall, its HIS experience, right?

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Originally Posted by GrkScorp [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

To be honest with you.. I used to be a total push-over nice guy.. and it wasn't until DeAngelo stressed the importance of Inner game that I changed.. But my realization didn't take place with women.. it took place in the NYC subway system.. NYC was a playgroud to break out of nice-guy-overly-polite-push-over mode.. People would walk on the sidewalk and try and walk on the right side (where i'd have to walk by).. but instead of move out of the way (something I used to do before).. I would stand there, look them in the eye as if to tell them "you're going to have to move, because i'm not moving, you have your side of the sidewalk, this one is mine".. And you know what? I was blown away, but EVERYONE would move.. there were some spiteful people which found it hard on their ego.. but instead of not moving, they would just try and brush arms or bump shoulders while walking past me.. On the subway.. (I would have to push through and excuse myself amung the masses).. but now I would just walk strait down.. Looking at everyone in the eye, then the floor, as if to tell them to move.. to imply it would be rude/uncivilized of them if they didn't.. and in a non-comfrontational manner, they all moved aside.. Something so little, so small, so simple.. was actually life changing..

In college, law school, work, and even with friends.. everyone looked towards me when they needed someone assertive.. friends walked behind me as I paved the way for them through the masses of NYC.. co-workers looked to me as a means to get some change around the office.. in college and law school.. other students looked towards me for leadership (something I actually never had in HS).. and the very last thing that followed from all of that.. was this attitude and mentality that women picked up on like fish formula.. (which means they also pick up on the wrong mentality like 7 month old garbage)

That's what I learned.. and that's mostly what a lot of guys learned.. everyone had their own story, their own history, their own experience.. but in the end, the issue was very similar.. From a young age, we did the mistake of associating "good & nice" with "weak, submissive, reserved, quiet".. maybe because of religion, or parenting, or harsh schooling, or simply not wanting to be like those guys we considered "jerks" who were anything BUT "weak, submissive, reserved, quiet"..

And as I realized that.. I noticed that this alone (inner game) was the entire game.. all other tactics/strategy/games were dwarfed in the face of inner game.. this was powerful.. because it was genuine.. because it was complete and total self-awareness.. from that came confidence (real confidence).. came assertiveness, a powerful pressence that radiated like an aura everyone could pick up on.. and microcal (microcalibration) where people became easy to read & understand.. AFTER that point, were games/tactics/strategy of any use.. because before that, I would have simply come off like a bad actor saying lines from a script he was reading for the first time.. but after that.. you're just a guy who's fully aware of the world around him.. the people around him.. the thoughts they're thinking.. the motives they have.. and they all seem like clay.. waiting to be molded.. and the "tactics" you learn from that point.. are much like your "tools" to mold these balls of clay into anything you want.. (that's IF you want to mold them).. but notice that even if you don't have these tactics at your disposal.. you still see the world in such a way.. and honestly.. that ALONE.. can give you the results you're looking for..

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This sounds like you had a wonderful epiphany, GS. That's terrific & I'm glad for you. Obviously this method taught you something valuable & you want to share that w/others. That's admirable. But consider that not everyone wants, nor needs, to immerse themselves in all this theory. Esp if that's not what they asked for. One doesn't need to understand the mechanism of aspirin to know it stops a headache.

You can't force someone to be interested in all this 'self actualization'. Its great that you've evolved. But you first needed to be convinced that the methods were actually worth thinking about right? I doubt you took someone else's word for it. So. Everything in its time, GS.

Anyway, I seem to have become OVs 'thread police' on this, so I'll finish here.

Self-government means less work for me!

Explaining the mechanism of the aspirin would require less space than one of scorps posts.

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Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Explaining the mechanism of the aspirin would require less space than one of scorps posts.

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True. But I'm starting to believe that he means well. ;)

Ah, hell OV. If you can't find a nice girl, move to Vancouver & become my poolboy. You can work in hubby's lab, hit on all the hot girls in there (he's got a truckload of them) & be a happy little camper. BlueSum knows lots of folk & I manage a dept with over 100 women all around age 20 - 30, many of them single. We'll make you forget Ms. Whatshername. ;)

damn if i was ov i would jump on that offer.

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

You can work in hubby's lab, hit on all the hot girls in there (he's got a truckload of them) & be a happy little camper.

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What does your husband do? Was he the chemist? What type of chemistry is he into?

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Anyway, I seem to have become OVs 'thread police' on this, so I'll finish here.

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Well.. whatever makes you happy Indi..

But actually.. I told OV to create this forum and title it Inner Game.. and that this forum would be used to improve him internally.. INTERNALLY!

I was going to give him what Jeffries gave DeAngelo.. and what he gave thousands of other guys, including me.. And HE made it clear to me that HE wanted that.. the second he created this thread.. because that's what this thread was about..

Did he have OTHER questions which he took the time to ask during this thread? YES.. but I also made it clear that these were small distractions that we would take care of later.. when time was of the essence, I answered the questions he had.. but the mutual goal from the start was Inner Game..

Then it was YOU who came along.. playing the role of "thead police" as you pointed out (i'm proud of you).. even though it sounds more like OV's mommy.. but he doesn't need a mommy.. he's a big boy now.. it HE has something to say.. i'm sure he can say if for himself.. he doesn't need anyone else to say it..

So you see.. it's YOU.. that's created an issue.. everyone else just PM-ed if they wanted tactics.. for what books they should read.. for what they should do.. etc.. OV created a thread because HE wanted INNER change.. and in this same thread, simply took the opportunity to ask a million other questions which would have led us all over the place.. but the very creation and point of an Inner Game thread.. is.. well.. Inner Game..

Now Indi, why don't we stop this back and forth pitter patter.. Honestly, tell me what you REALLY want, and we'll work it out.. If you prefer to PM, you can do so.. But I like comming online and helping people improve their lives, get over any problems, and just having a good time.. That's the beauty of the LF community.. so i'm all ears for any suggestions you have so we can keep it that way..

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

You can work in hubby's lab, hit on all the hot girls in there (he's got a truckload of them)...

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Originally Posted by DoesntMatter [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

What type of chemistry is he into?

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Sounds to me like chemistry of the sexual variety.

~Sphinx

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Originally Posted by TheSphinx [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Sounds to me like chemistry of the sexual variety.

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OMG! now that you said that.. I saw this movie once when I was younger, about some freak science project where these two guys put some ooze on the pages of magazines, and the women came to life.. but they had to be kissed or else they'd turn back to ooze..

And there was this other one where they created the perfect girl via a computer and brought her to life.. Really old movies.. I think 80's films..

I loved those films.. I forgot the titles of them though..

I think Weird Science was the popular film following the above plot line.

~Sphinx

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

True. But I'm starting to believe that he means well. ;)

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Ughh, whether he means well or not has little to do with it. He's been brainwashed by literature and theory, his posts are probably filled with plaigiarism. I just spend almost 3 hours reading this damn thread and my head hurts.

It's not so much a game as a COURTING PROCESS. Yes there are things to do and say that will attract interest and make you seem valuable, but being an arrogant prick will only work (maybe) in the short-run. Eventually, if you're an insecure guy using GS's methods, you're true nature will come through.

For f***cks sake then - why not work at improving yourself internally instead of manipulating people and situations???

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Originally Posted by GrkScorp [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Honestly, tell me what you REALLY want, and we'll work it out..

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Actually, GS, you're already doing it, all by yourself.

Damn what have I missed?

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Ah, hell OV. If you can't find a nice girl, move to Vancouver & become my poolboy. You can work in hubby's lab, hit on all the hot girls in there (he's got a truckload of them) & be a happy little camper. BlueSum knows lots of folk & I manage a dept with over 100 women all around age 20 - 30, many of them single. We'll make you forget Ms. Whatshername. ;)

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Stop kidding around, I might take you up on that offer! haha 100 20-30 women who most are single...damn, I live in the wrong place :mad:

Pool boy for Indi.....biology...pool boy for indi....biology.....tough choice.....I'll just be a pool boy. lol :)

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Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

OV, what might help you is the "cave man" (I.e. The way I get after a few shots and pints of amber fluid in a club) You act as if the world is part of your cave and is there solely for you to explore and play with. When you approach an attractive girl you approach with confidence and certainty as if she's already into you. Doesn't matter what she looks like or who or what she thinks she is. She's lucky, because you happen to find her attractive and grace her with your attention. Once you think like that, your whole attitude changes. You can get dozens of girls like her just like that if you want, but what the hell you're a nice guy so you'll do her a favour and talk to her. You no longer worry about right and wrong, you're no longer nervous or bound by your own consciousness, you just act natural with certainty that what you do is awesome. You project confidence, dominance, certainty that you are a master of your own domain , you are reliable and you can get things done. And most importantly you give everything a shot. This attitude radiates well and lots of girls seems to pick up on it and be attracted to it. Don't ask me why, just know that it works :)

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I know, this is harder done than said. Acting confident and feeling it for real is different. I am slowly building myself up there. I can't just tell myself that she is lucky to be talking to me. The conversation just won't be smooth enough. Though you make really good points.

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Originally Posted by miSSleepy [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

why not work at improving yourself internally instead of manipulating people and situations???

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Exactly! and if we had to name this internal improvement of ones self, and call it something a little more formal.. I don't know.. something different from manipulation of people and situations.. something distinct and seperate from "Outer game".. what would be a fitting name? :surprised

INNER game perhaps? :P

We've been in agreement all along! This was the point of this thread!

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Originally Posted by GrkScorp [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I know it's a lot to take in.. but the first thing you may find interesting is that, the first person you felt hate towards was "him".. as you first started to feel a mix of frustration and confusion for why she would fall for someone like him.. at some point, you realized that it wasn't his fault.. you then temporarily felt hate towards her; that's understandable.. she was the source of those bad emotions at that moment.. but you eventually found yourself finally feeling hate for yourself.. unable to rationalize it fully and completely.. until now.. It's amazing how the mind sometimes speaks in code.. but it never fails to cry out.. and yours didn't.. you felt that hate.. and it felt very real.. but now that you think back on it, it's understandable how you almost can't help but laugh at it..

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I'm only quoting this for length saving. I don't laugh at it. It has made me miserable for a while. I do feel better about myself. I am trying to realize if it has been some of the things you said or of it was the ego boost I got from seeing her ex working at a lame hot dog stand..not to put anyone down with a job such as that but you get my point. Something is missing still though, maybe just the moment or opportunity for me to really motivate myself to go for someone. Anyways, there is this cute girl I want to talk to in class and I am going to see if I have what it takes to approach her....hell, she should be happy she gets to talk to me right? :D I'm smart, intelligent, and I always have good advice ...

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Originally Posted by Only-virgins [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Anyways, there is this cute girl I want to talk to in class and I am going to see if I have what it takes to approach her....hell, she should be happy she gets to talk to me right? :D I'm smart, intelligent, and I always have good advice ...

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Slip a note by her one day as you're sitting next to her in class one day.. make sure you do it when class is going on..

"I'm bored, and if you're still reading.. so are you.. ok, no laughing or else no more notes for you..

I have a friend who uses cheezy lines on people.. He was telling me some of them the other day.. and yes, they're cheezy, but some of them are actually hilarious..

What's the funniest line you've heard?

- Hi, my name is (your name).. what's yours?
- Did it hurt alot? When you fell from heaven?
- Hey, i've seen you around before, what other classes do you take?
- Are you Jamaican? Caz Ja-makin-me-crazy!
- You're not ugly, so I thought, ehh, why not give you a chance..
- I have my library card, mind if I check you out?
- I'm bored.. I have a friend.. What's the funniest line you've heard?"

(It's supposed to be funny)

The worst that can happen is she laughs.. and you have a fluff conversation laughing about it.. (be ready to stack with stories and other funny/fun stuff).. and she stops talking or class ends.. (in which case you just broke the ice.. now you're this fun/funny guy in her class.. WELCOME TO HER RADAR!)

The best case.. she laughs.. you have a fluff convo.. you stack with stories, games, tricks (fun/funny/interesting).. she responds.. walks out of class with you.. (and like i've stressed, be the first to leave.. YOU tell her it was fun, but you have an other class.. that's it.. no need to elaborate.. you're going to see her again! She's not going anywhere.. she'll be there again next class.. where you can re-stack.. and get her # to meet up after class.. or tell her to come with you for lunch via "do you have class after this? I'm going to get some lunch.. why don't you come with me to get some lunch.. I have to show you this memory trick..")

If you do NOTHING.. then the BEST and WORST outcomes are the same.. NOTHING.. but you're better than that now..

Bonus: (Memory Trick - Peg System)

1. Tree
2. Switch
3. Stool
4. Car
5. Glove
6. Gun
7. Dice
8. Skates
9. Cat
10. Bowling
11. Goal
12. Eggs
13. Witch
14. Ring
15. Paycheck
16. Candy
17. Magazine
18. Truck
19. Golf Bag
20. Cigaretts

This is your list of 20 items.. She can make her own list, and you can memorize all 20 items in order, from 1-to-20.. from 20-to-1.. and any number at random she wants.. Here's how it works..

We represent things in our mind using systems.. For instance.. the number (1) is nothing but a concept.. and idea.. a notion.. It can be number or items.. or it can represent order/position.. The symbol we choose to represent this idea is "1".. Well, from now on.. when you think of the concept/idea/notion of (1).. I want you to visualize a Tree.. It stands alone, upright and tall, much like the number.. (2) is a Switch, it can either be ON or OFF, you only have two choices.. (3) is a tri-pod Stool, three legs.. (4) is a Car, 4 doors, tires, etc.. (5) the number of fingers on a Glove.. (6) the number of bullets in a magnum Gun.. (7) the most probably outcome with Dice.. (8) figure 8's with ice-skates, or 8 wheels on roller-skates.. (9) Cat has 9 lives.. (10) number of bowling pins.. (11) number of players in soccer, or you can visualize the two posts on a goal as the number.. (12) a dozen Eggs.. (13) unlucky number, think October, Halloween, Witch! (14) most common Gold standard 14k, Ring! (15) you get paid on the 1st and 15th of each month.. (16) Sweet 16, think Candy! (17) name of a popular Magazine.. (18) number of wheels on a Truck.. (19) number of clubs in a professional Golf Bag.. (20) number of cigaretts in a pack..

Congrats! You know your own list of Items.. But the object is to know hers.. In this memory representational system.. the tool of choice is "visualization".. each number is a concept/idea/notion which will be captured and represented by an image/visualization you can link to what you call a "number".. When she gives you an item.. you will take that item and associate it with your visual representation of that number..

Example: I recently did this on a waitress.. last Friday! Here's her list:

1. Table, 2. Phone, 3. Glass, 4. TV, 5. Hat, 6. Beer Glass, 7. Salt & Pepper, 8. Menu, 9. Trash Can, 10. Car, 11. Keychain, 12. Red Lipstick, 13. Tampon, 14. Sunglasses, 15. Stilettos, 16. Spoon, 17. Straw, 18. Condoms, 19. Diaphragm, 20. Boat

How the hell do I still remember? well.. that's because she's really cute.. but with respect to the Peg System.. When she wrote "table" for (1).. I visualized a Tree, and on that tree, it was growing instead of fruits, Tables! For (2) A lightswitch which had a phone as a cover.. for (3) A Stool made out of Glass.. (4) A Car with a TV inside.. (5) A gentleman putting on his Gloves to take off his Hat.. (6) A hill-billy shooting Beer Glasses with his Gun.. (7) Salt-Pepper shakers that looked like Dice.. (8) Hooters girls rolling on Skates to give you your Menu.. (9) Cats next to a Trash can.. (10) My ex-gf throwing a bowling ball through the windshield of my car.. (11) a keychain of a soccer Goal.. (12) A kiss mark with red lipstick on an Egg shell.. (13) A b*tchy Witch on her period, riding a tampon.. (14) A rap video with guys wearing gold Rings and Sunglasses.. (15) The waitress saving her Paycheck to buy Stilettos.. (16) A chocolate Candy spoon.. (17) Jessica Alba on the cover of a Magazine drinking from a straw.. (18) A Trojan Truck full of condoms.. (19) A Golfer needing to control his breathing via his diaphragm before each shot.. (20) my father smoking Cigaretts on his boat..

You then ask her to tell you YOUR list first.. 1-to-20.. and then backwards.. and then "what was #?".. She won't be able to do it.. (if she can, she's a keeper!).. You then give her both lists to hold on to.. And tell her all items on HER list, 1-to-20, backwards.. then let her ask you any number.. Until you get either a "wow, that's crazy!" or a "how the hell do you do that?".. You then tell her YOUR list, just for fun.. and make note that you memorized "in perfect order" 40 items.. from both lists.. (tell her you're tired now.. you're a guy.. you need at least 30minutes to recharge your batteries.. and you'll tell her later..)

Why later? Well, you're going to see her in class later.. Instead of OFFERING to tell her "next time".. you can now test to see "gauge" her interest in you.. If it's there.. she'll say.. "hey, you still didn't show me how to do that memory thing".. or "you still need to show me that memory trick works"..

Fast post GS. but it is a piano class I decided to take. Kind of missed the classroom you know? Class is in 2 days. I will have time to read that tomorrow GS, thanks, I am so tired right now it is insane. Like being sober and yet drunk. Just wanted to throw the piano thing in....I already have one thing in common with her :) night people...till tomorrow. That memory thing sounds fun haha. First I have to work on getting her to lunch.

Great!

You can re-edit the list on the note.. (no talking during piano class!).. and list the 1st and 3rd things as..

- You look like someone who likes music, I can tell you have great taste

- You know how I know you have great taste? Because you think i'm funny.. Let me take a wild guess here, but you strike me as someone who would like the piano

(Remember, it's supposed to be a joke.. it's supposed to be funny.. that's the object of the note.. it's NOT a cheezy collection of pick-up lines.. it pokes fun at them.. with a funny punch at the end.. the subcommunication of making fun of pick-up lines is that you're better than that.. you're more socially intelligent than that.. you see her as more than that and don't see her as someone cheap "how most women feel when they have guys use cheezy lines on them, and cat-call them")

Women in piano classes.. hmm.. interesting.. challenging..

Not really an issue though if you're willing to open before class starts, or after class ends.. (Recommend before class starts! and pick up again after class ends) But you CAN'T open with a note if class is not going on.. that just SCREAMS "weak, wussy, scared, shy, intimidated by her, feels like he's not worthy enough for her, etc"

Hehe, Scorp and his bag of tricks. Nice one.

OV, practice it well, if you stuff it up half way through you may crush and burn ;)

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Originally Posted by GrkScorp [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

And there was this other one where they created the perfect girl via a computer and brought her to life.. Really old movies.. I think 80's films..

I loved those films.. I forgot the titles of them though..

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Weird Science, like Sphinx said. The other one was "Simone". Good movie, the latter.

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Exactly! and if we had to name this internal improvement of ones self, and call it something a little more formal.. I don't know.. something different from manipulation of people and situations.. something distinct and seperate from "Outer game".. what would be a fitting name?

INNER game perhaps?

We've been in agreement all along! This was the point of this thread!

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so why are you also telling him to manipulate people?

HAS ANYONE SEEN 'SCHOOL FOR SCOUNDRELS'??

This is kind of worse.

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Originally Posted by miSSleepy [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

so why are you also telling him to manipulate people?

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Because he was ALSO asking me other questions unrelated to the thread..

But while we're on the topic and waiting from OV's feedback on piano-girl.. a word on manipulation..

EVERYTHING you do, say, or don't do or say.. is manipulation..

Your actions, or lack of actions, shape the world around you, and the people within it.. If you choose to work, you will get paid, and spend that money on goods/services you want.. and by doing that.. you manipulate the demand for those sectors.. Similarly, if you DON'T work.. that money that could have been yours will stay with someone else, and he/she will spend it on things they wany, and will manipulate those sectors accordingly..

Now, you can take manipulation and apply it to everything.. so let's apply it to people, specifically, young men and women (boys & girls).. A girl gets dressed up and walks outside of her house.. (manipulation?) Maybe yes, maybe no.. How do other women feel around her? Next to her? How do boys feel as she walks by? Has she changed the world around her? Have her actions caused people around her to respond differently? To feel differently? Would things be different if she didn't get dressed up that day?

Now, to be fair, let's apply it to guys.. Guys go outside of their house.. They are offering all this fun to those around them, being funny, interesting, and having those around them feeling great.. (manipulation?) Maybe, maybe not.. How do people feel when these guys come around them? When these guys give them attention? When these guys look at them? Compliment them? Touch them? Have their actions caused people to feel differently? Would things be different if they took this all away?

Absolutely.. why? Because things (feelings) were different when these things were there in the first place.. In the normal course of events, a girl may notice that other girls aren't too fond of her if she dresses up.. while guys may respond differently.. she'll have to make a trade-off.. but such trade-offs are either made by accident "unintentional", or on purpose.. "intentional".. but in either case.. they still hold the same effect.. to change and manipulate the world and people around them..

From an early age.. girls pick up on a new lingo.. "womanspeak" or "womanese"..

- "Omg! That looks so cute!" (That looks hot and sexy you lucky b*tch, I wish that would come in my size, I hate you for all the male attention you're going to get now)

- "We're just friends" (I haven't explicitly told him that i'm not interested in him.. but he still takes me places and gets me stuff, but if he tries to lay a finger on me, that'll be the last time he sees me)

- "He's too cocky/shallow/an assh0le" (He's so fcukn' hot, but his confidence bothers me, I don't feel like I stand a chance with him, so just go along with me and agree that he's lacking in the personality department)

- "He's not BF material" (He's not fcukable.. but he's a nice guy.. and I can't just say that or else i'd sound shallow, so let's all pretend there's something about him that's a deal-breaker besides his looks)

- "Why don't you give me your number instead?" (There's no way in hell I want to speak to you again, so just give me your number so that you can leave, and when you're not looking I can throw it out)

But what's more fitting is what girls DON'T do.. that constitutes manipulation.. Sitting there, passively.. accepting dinners, lunches, nights out, gifts, favors, etc.. (given, the guys who do that are idiots).. even though they have nothing but "friendly" intentions with such guys.. leading guys on to get such things.. using guys for nothing more than a good ego-boost.. flirting with guys just to create jealousy plot-lines.. acting cold & unresponsive to maintain an informational advantage until they're 200% sure how the guy feels about them, then get bored, and move along.. etc

(obviously, not all women are like this.. I'm fully aware i'm writing to you miSSleepy.. but a comfortable 80% are.. by default & by nature.. put them in a circle of friends, let them share ideas and tactics, and years later they grow up to form the manipulation guild as the masters of manipulation)

Is what i'm suggesting manipulation? Yes.. is it any less dirty? Probably not.. dating tactics are kids games.. hardcore manipulation takes place on a negotiation table, where the consequences are really serious.. and can cost lives or millions/billions of dollars.. the issue of intentional/unintentional attraction and manipulation of the other sex can only "cost" the guy some days/a few hundred dollars (or months/a few thoudand dollars if he's really stupid) and a broken heart if he got hit with one-itis.. similarly, it can "cost" the girl days/sh*tty sex/and a broken heart.. (or a child, marrying a back-up dancer, and getting divorced and giving him half of everything you have.. if she's really stupid)

The all too common argument to this is "oh, there's no need for kids games, people should just be mature and be themselves.. blah blah.. negative adjectives directed towards men/women who use manipulation.. positive adjectives directed towards men/women who don't use manipulation.. blah blah".. To that i'll say..

When 80+% of women are using manipulation so naturally & fluently, and it can cost guys serious time and money and heartbreak to fall for such crap.. they're almost left no choice but to throw that same crap back.. Not because they want to be mean, or because they like to immitate women or anything like that.. but because they don't feel like taking on the role of the longtermprovider or emotionaltampon for every woman they like.. The minority of women who don't play games (not the ones that "claim" they don't).. are largely at ease with the 95+% of the male population who doesn't have a clue about manipulation.. The majority of women love these guys.. the more of these guys, the more free stuff they get.. it's the 5% of guys they don't like.. because it's like you just made a better version of MS Word! How do you think Microsoft would feel for someone to come in and invade on their copyright? Manipulation is almost patented by these women.. and now these guys come in and take away that feeling of control and power? Not cool.. What can women do? Besides b*tch and nag at it and try and throw negative adjectives and symbolism in an effort to associate it with these guys.. the majority is now interested in a guy they feel they can't control, it's a challenge, how rare.. the minority is simply creamed and taken unfair advantage of if such a guy can't realize that she's not playing games..

Good news?

Yeah, eventually.. down the line, this minority of men will become the vast majority.. to the point where women realize female games are inferior, and they stop.. eventually men will stop aswell, since they only use games to counter games.. then the vast majority of both men and women don't even bother using them anymore.. And, in an effort to complicate our courting system and navigate through our tangled web which we call dating; we would have done nothing more than simplify the entire process.. to the way it should have been all along..

I sure would like to see an objective study that validates all these silly claims you make about how women behave.

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Originally Posted by GrkScorp [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

"He's too cocky/shallow/an assh0le" (He's so fcukn' hot, but his confidence bothers me, I don't feel like I stand a chance with him, so just go along with me and agree that he's lacking in the personality department)

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I loved this one^. Is this what guys really think?

In my case it was:

"He's too cocky/shallow/an assh0le"
= (He's too cocky/shallow/an asshole. He doesn't stand a chance w/me.)

Beyond that, never gave them a second thought.

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Originally Posted by GrkScorp [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Because he was ALSO asking me other questions unrelated to the thread..

But while we're on the topic and waiting from OV's feedback on piano-girl.. a word on manipulation..

EVERYTHING you do, say, or don't do or say.. is manipulation..

Your actions, or lack of actions, shape the world around you, and the people within it.. If you choose to work, you will get paid, and spend that money on goods/services you want.. and by doing that.. you manipulate the demand for those sectors.. Similarly, if you DON'T work.. that money that could have been yours will stay with someone else, and he/she will spend it on things they wany, and will manipulate those sectors accordingly..

Now, you can take manipulation and apply it to everything.. so let's apply it to people, specifically, young men and women (boys & girls).. A girl gets dressed up and walks outside of her house.. (manipulation?) Maybe yes, maybe no.. How do other women feel around her? Next to her? How do boys feel as she walks by? Has she changed the world around her? Have her actions caused people around her to respond differently? To feel differently? Would things be different if she didn't get dressed up that day?

Now, to be fair, let's apply it to guys.. Guys go outside of their house.. They are offering all this fun to those around them, being funny, interesting, and having those around them feeling great.. (manipulation?) Maybe, maybe not.. How do people feel when these guys come around them? When these guys give them attention? When these guys look at them? Compliment them? Touch them? Have their actions caused people to feel differently? Would things be different if they took this all away?

Absolutely.. why? Because things (feelings) were different when these things were there in the first place.. In the normal course of events, a girl may notice that other girls aren't too fond of her if she dresses up.. while guys may respond differently.. she'll have to make a trade-off.. but such trade-offs are either made by accident "unintentional", or on purpose.. "intentional".. but in either case.. they still hold the same effect.. to change and manipulate the world and people around them..

From an early age.. girls pick up on a new lingo.. "womanspeak" or "womanese"..

- "Omg! That looks so cute!" (That looks hot and sexy you lucky b*tch, I wish that would come in my size, I hate you for all the male attention you're going to get now)

- "We're just friends" (I haven't explicitly told him that i'm not interested in him.. but he still takes me places and gets me stuff, but if he tries to lay a finger on me, that'll be the last time he sees me)

- "He's too cocky/shallow/an assh0le" (He's so fcukn' hot, but his confidence bothers me, I don't feel like I stand a chance with him, so just go along with me and agree that he's lacking in the personality department)

- "He's not BF material" (He's not fcukable.. but he's a nice guy.. and I can't just say that or else i'd sound shallow, so let's all pretend there's something about him that's a deal-breaker besides his looks)

- "Why don't you give me your number instead?" (There's no way in hell I want to speak to you again, so just give me your number so that you can leave, and when you're not looking I can throw it out)

But what's more fitting is what girls DON'T do.. that constitutes manipulation.. Sitting there, passively.. accepting dinners, lunches, nights out, gifts, favors, etc.. (given, the guys who do that are idiots).. even though they have nothing but "friendly" intentions with such guys.. leading guys on to get such things.. using guys for nothing more than a good ego-boost.. flirting with guys just to create jealousy plot-lines.. acting cold & unresponsive to maintain an informational advantage until they're 200% sure how the guy feels about them, then get bored, and move along.. etc

(obviously, not all women are like this.. I'm fully aware i'm writing to you miSSleepy.. but a comfortable 80% are.. by default & by nature.. put them in a circle of friends, let them share ideas and tactics, and years later they grow up to form the manipulation guild as the masters of manipulation)

Is what i'm suggesting manipulation? Yes.. is it any less dirty? Probably not.. dating tactics are kids games.. hardcore manipulation takes place on a negotiation table, where the consequences are really serious.. and can cost lives or millions/billions of dollars.. the issue of intentional/unintentional attraction and manipulation of the other sex can only "cost" the guy some days/a few hundred dollars (or months/a few thoudand dollars if he's really stupid) and a broken heart if he got hit with one-itis.. similarly, it can "cost" the girl days/sh*tty sex/and a broken heart.. (or a child, marrying a back-up dancer, and getting divorced and giving him half of everything you have.. if she's really stupid)

The all too common argument to this is "oh, there's no need for kids games, people should just be mature and be themselves.. blah blah.. negative adjectives directed towards men/women who use manipulation.. positive adjectives directed towards men/women who don't use manipulation.. blah blah".. To that i'll say..

When 80+% of women are using manipulation so naturally & fluently, and it can cost guys serious time and money and heartbreak to fall for such crap.. they're almost left no choice but to throw that same crap back.. Not because they want to be mean, or because they like to immitate women or anything like that.. but because they don't feel like taking on the role of the longtermprovider or emotionaltampon for every woman they like.. The minority of women who don't play games (not the ones that "claim" they don't).. are largely at ease with the 95+% of the male population who doesn't have a clue about manipulation.. The majority of women love these guys.. the more of these guys, the more free stuff they get.. it's the 5% of guys they don't like.. because it's like you just made a better version of MS Word! How do you think Microsoft would feel for someone to come in and invade on their copyright? Manipulation is almost patented by these women.. and now these guys come in and take away that feeling of control and power? Not cool.. What can women do? Besides b*tch and nag at it and try and throw negative adjectives and symbolism in an effort to associate it with these guys.. the majority is now interested in a guy they feel they can't control, it's a challenge, how rare.. the minority is simply creamed and taken unfair advantage of if such a guy can't realize that she's not playing games..

Good news?

Yeah, eventually.. down the line, this minority of men will become the vast majority.. to the point where women realize female games are inferior, and they stop.. eventually men will stop aswell, since they only use games to counter games.. then the vast majority of both men and women don't even bother using them anymore.. And, in an effort to complicate our courting system and navigate through our tangled web which we call dating; we would have done nothing more than simplify the entire process.. to the way it should have been all along..

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I can't be the only person here who enjoyed reading this can I? There is a lot of truth to this. Supported to me by observation. I don't think all guys who take girls out to lunch are idiots though, I would do it once or twice...and if there is no progress I am out.

Piano girl is Bi-sexual!!!!

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I loved this one^. Is this what guys really think?

In my case it was:

"He's too cocky/shallow/an assh0le"
= (He's too cocky/shallow/an asshole. He doesn't stand a chance w/me.)

Beyond that, never gave them a second thought.

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I believe you because you are logical as well. It is pretty obvious though that women tend to saying something and mean something completely different. For example: "What is wrong honey? something is bothering you"..."nothing"(real meaning: something) lol

lol those interpretations couldn't be any more off the mark.