No, not just cut social security right out from current old peoples feet, but to begin phasing it out and teaching the idiotic youth and young adults to wisen up on how they spend their money
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No, not just cut social security right out from current old peoples feet, but to begin phasing it out and teaching the idiotic youth and young adults to wisen up on how they spend their money
And suddenly you become willing to use the stereotype of the good ChristianQuote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Most poor people don't need help and they can help themselves but they aren't motivated to. Poor people in Africa are far more needing of our help than many "poor" Americans. Poor people in this country have homeless shelters and soup kitchens. That is as far as the help should go in terms of handouts. The rest should be job training
And on another note,
Being Christian doesn't mean you are able to follow all that is set for you to follow. Because if you did, you would be (pretty much by definition of Christianity) Jesus Christ himself. I accept the guidelines Jesus laid down as being the template on how to live
You see, people like my parents just let attacks on Christianity roll off their back and not think about it. Although when it becomes really venomous it does hurt my mom. I don't ever feel like putting up with it anymore
that would bad for business. companies bank on people who are unwise about their money.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoesntMatter [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I am def all Obama!! He is going to bring this country the change it needs. McCain says he KNOWS what to do but doesnt go in any further than that. No explanation. He spends all his time talking about Obama. And Palin - forget it. She might be nice to look at but thats about it. Republicans are lyin to themselves when it comes to her. Some Republicans are now backin Obama, noteven thier OWN party. You have to consider that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoesntMatter [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
So, this is what you believe, but you DIDN'T vote for Obama??Quote:
Originally Posted by DoesntMatter [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Oh, yes, these are exactly the type of programs that McCain is promoting. :P
DM. I think you are full of shit. You didn't vote Obama b/c he's black, I think.
Obama plans to put a huge amount of finance & focus into US energy innnovation. You are simply too young & stupid to realize what an incredible investment opportunity this will be for someone who will have your income in 10 years. Foolish & short-sighted you are, Grasshopper. :P
I understand that no one's perfect DM. It's good that you accept the guidelines of Jesus, but if you do I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the following passages from the Bible. Because personally my understanding of them is Jesus himself was into "redistribution of wealth".Quote:
Originally Posted by DoesntMatter [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Matthew 19:23-24
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
On social programs: "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." (Matthew 19:21.)
On financial success: "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.." (Matthew 19:23; 6:24.)
On the philosophy that "greed is good": "Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." (Luke 12:15.)
"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share." (1 Timothy 6:17,18)
"Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who loved him? But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?" (James 2:5-7)
"Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[a] You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you." (James 5:1-6)
Once again, this is how I see it. Jesus is favoring the practice of giving to the poor over accumulating wealth. From what I understand according to the bible, giving to the poor is not just an act of kindness, it's a Christian duty. The person who chooses to accumulate wealth instead of using that wealth to care for the poor chooses money over God.
Mish, are you actually preaching to DM as a way of showing how he's being inconsistent? LOL!
Come on, now. Most Christians are hypocrites in that they pick & choose those aspects of the bible which suit their chosen lifestyle. If they didn't they would have to move in with the fundamentalist muslims who think its perfectly okay to chop off someone's hand b/c they stole something to feed their family.
DM is susceptible to reason. He believes in *christian values*, which (for some ppl) isn't the same thing as blind belief in the bible. I think so, anyway.
I'm just pointing out the obvious Indi that a Christian person can't consider himself to be a true Christian if they don't believe in charity, care about accumulation of wealth and don't care about the poor. The way I see it this is one of the core principals and the core "Christian value". I understand that a person can choose not to follow this particular aspect of Christianity, but then they should probably find a different faith as it's completely un-Christian. Entire life of Jesus is the one of charity.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
If that's the case I don't think there is such a thing as a true Christian. A true Christian would never own a car. His home would be a shack at best. A true Christian would spend only so much money as was needed to sustain himself. The rest would be given to the poor. Stick your head in a Christian church, though, and what do you see? Gold tabernacles, stained glass, mahogany wood, and even the poorest congregations dressed luxuriantly. There aren't many Mother Teresa's left, methinks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
You know what I don't get about Christianity? How is it that the New Testament completely overwrites the Old? Is that what Jesus intended? Or do people just disregard the Old Testament because it isn't as pleasant? And if you disregard better than half your religious text, can you really be considered a member of that particular religion?
But there are true Christians out there. You won't find them in luxurious churches driving in luxurious cars and wearing luxurious clothing. They are not hypocrites. There are lots of those Christians who haven't twisted and deformed the teachings of their Religion. You will find them at the soup kitchens, doing volunteer work, helping the poor any way they can, you will find them at Salvation army that does projects for the poor, you will find them at St Vinnies, yeh you will even find them lobbying in favor of "redistribution of wealth" which places a tax on people earning 250K + who are considered if not rich then at least well off and who can afford it. You will find many false Christians as well, but then their actions which go against their own holy book speaks for itself and casts them in real light.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I can't answer that question because I'm not an authority on that subject. I don't consider myself to be a true Christian because I know of the expectations Christianity places on true believers, though I still try to live up to some of them. There are certain aspects of Christianity that I disagree with as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Meh. In the end, its just another label. I would have what most would call 'Christian values' but I reject the label 'Christian' b/c I think its unnecessary. Gribble's sig quote sums it about just about right for me as far as root causes for ethics goes & it isn't b/c I'm God-fearing:P
Explain to me rationally, however, why something makes sense & I'm inclined to listen. DM, too, I think that's all I was saying. The religious part isn't in it, anymore than what colour underwear we are wearing today.
Honestly, I think those bible verses are offensive. I know a lot of affluent people, and they do a LOT for charitable causes and they have a very positive influence on the lives of a lot of poor people. If they give everything away, they wouldn't be in a position to help the poor anymore.
Gribble - I don't know why people consider the Hebrew bible to be "less pleasant" than the Christian writings. After all, the God of the Hebrew bible - although certainly a punishing sort of figure - is ultimately forgiving. The God of the Christian bible is compassionate until you die, at which time if you haven't accepted him, he throws you in the fiery pits of Hell for eternity. No ultimate forgiveness.
What in the world isn't offencive?
But the First Testament was actually violent, like Koran. Second Testament is less, but religious fundamentalist and fat American home moms who blindly follow it speak for itself. Yes that was an offence from me to whoever those who feel like offended from my post...
The unfortunate thing is that too many Americans are simply afraid of the word Democrat. McCain says he's going to change washington... yet his party, the Republicans, are already IN office..
McCain's gonna croak before the end of of his term and Palin's just gonna f*ck sh*t up. I mean, McCain is defff regretting bringing her on bc he didnt know she was so Hockey mom anti-commi, anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-anything not white collar american. Poor McCain, thinking he was getting all of Hillary's vote on the Repub. side by bringing in an Alaskan Hockey Mom.... or is that soon to be, Grandma?
I'm mainly defending my parents against all you dumb****s wanting to tear down Christianity. All you people want to do is tear it down and shit on it because it's the best thing there is to hate. It's kind of sad how I have to defend smart people like my parents from people as stupid as you
Mish, are those people really doing enough by the New Testament's standards? At the end of the day they go home to an apartment with plumbing and electricity. They sit down to a nice meal. They slip into a comfortable bed. In the morning they take a hot shower, then hop into their vehicles and drive back to the soup kitchen. I would consider what they do extremely good. However, I'm not sure that it is enough. Isn't the whole point of the New Testament to show us how to live our lives? Aren't we supposed to be modeling our lives after Jesus? In the Western world the poorest is filthy stinking rich, whether they are aware of it or not. I'd hardly compare a volunteer to someone such as Mother Teresa who, supposedly, devoted herself wholly to helping the poor.
Vash, there are so many stories in the Old Testament that end in bloodshed. I mean, we have people killed in the thousands for mispronouncing names, we have children mauled for laughing at a bald guy, we have one of God's favored men offering his two virgin daughters up to a mob to be raped.
I don't believe the New Testament is really all that much better for the reason you pointed out. Amid all his compassion Jesus firmly presents himself as a "cosmic despot" by reinforcing the idea that we must believe or die. It's just... there's less stuff to ignore in the New Testament than in the Old, y'know? There are maybe two passages in which Jesus tells us he'll "allow" countless, countless human beings to suffer eternal and unimaginable agony. The Old Testament is filled with violent stories from beginning to end.
How do you justify all the violence and cruelty in the Bible? I can't believe those stories are somehow all allegorical. And if the excuse is that it was written in another age, why then drag that particular god into this age? Why not write a new text with an enlightened deity that preaches moral and ethical standards that are valid in the modern world?
Gribble I'm going to have to take the opportunity to tell you that you are in fact stupid. Please, please take some math classes and learn what your brain is for. You probably won't get very far but at least you may come to understand that you are not actually smart. Considering how much you like discussing things so purely theoretical you should be good at math, right?
Funny how DM tries to defend everything with math or chemistry, because thats the only thing he is good at. Now what has math to do with God? Religion is all about theoretical, actually not even that because theory needs some kind of support and is actually proven, like with math. Its purely hypothetical, to put it gently.
Math and chemistry are all I'm good at? I'm probably better than you at most everything boobaa so shut the fucck up
What we were trying to talk about was the application of Christianity, but all these discussions ever boil down to are people bashing it whenever convenient
Actually, DM, I was talking to folks who have real opinions and thoughts in their heads. Until you can express an opinion or handle a discussion without falling back on your little math nonsense you can safely assume I'm not speaking to you. Feel free to continue with your childish "I know math, you don't" bullshit if it makes you feel good, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoesntMatter [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
You and many other people on this site are bigotted and hateful of Christianity. All I propose is that the template laid down for Christians to follow by Jesus is a great template to live by, and looking obectively at it I think almost anyone would agree. Whenever on this site Christians are mentioned it is always in a way scorning them because of their ignorance, hate, racism, intolerance, scientific ineptness, or hypocrisy. The rest of the time it is because they are silly Jesus freaks with messages of love and goodwill. It really doesn't matter
I don't like the hate towards Christians on this site. It's not something I have to put up with like I've been all my life at school and elsewhere, so I'm not going to listen to it anymore here
And there are those who do enough according to the New Testament as well. They are just less seen because they are not a good media material. I've personally met Christians who live modest to poor life style and yet still volunteer to help the poor. Though, I don't consider people you mentioned to do anything wrong as well. If a person who lives a moderate middle class or a well off life style and does what he/she can to sync it with their Religion I don't think it's wrong. I just think it's very hypocrtical of Rich Christians (and I would consider people earning 250K+ a year to be rich or at least almost rich) who call themselves Christians and yet openly speak out against the poor, how poor people are all dumb and should just go get a job and stop "stealing" their money. That irony is very sad and it's strange that so many people don't realize it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
It is amazing how sensitive people get over this subject. Anything else you'd gladly debate. But not your religion. Something is very, very wrong with that. If I offended you, well, I'm not sorry in the least bit. Someone's got to be critical of religion.
Besides, I wasn't mocking Christianity. I was trying to comprehend it. This is my point as succinctly as I can write it: what's up with all that other stuff outside the Christian template for good living, how do you justify it, and if you ignore it are you really a Christian?
I agree with DM on this. Even though Christianity does come with many contradictions, at it's core it has a very decent model for people to follow. If you consider Christian attitudes to the golden rule and seven virtues and seven sins for example they lay out a good path. Modesty, charity, humility, moderation, kindness, patience, abstinance... they are all good standards. And one can say that people should be able to follow these regardless of Religion, which is true. But Religion provides a great cultural, historic and moral motivating incentive for people to do it, which is a benefit. It's not as easy to follow these standards without a great purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoesntMatter [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Well, I don't hate on anyone who is religious. I just view it as an outdated way of living. In fact, I don't mind most of "Christian values", I'd just like to see the God part of it dropped. So long as someone else keeps their beliefs to themselves, I figure this is a question of their own mental development. As Mish said earlier, there seems to be a genuine need for religion in the psyche of a lot of ppl. Who am I to take that away from them? As I mentioned in that other thread tho, if someone believes its okay to knock on my door and tell my why its good to be Christian, then they better not get upset when we shake them up a bit & recommend the mental health benefits of being atheist. Fair is fair, after all. :D
My only real issue with Christianity is that it tends to try to credit Jesus with being the originator of benevolent behaviors.
EDIT: Well, the proselytizing can be sometimes overwhelming. I really don't mind that people believe in Jesus, though, and I've said many time that I think a lot of atheists don't really know enough about esoteric thought to have a valid opinion about ALL religion.
I agree. Benevolent behaviour and homage to any religious deity need not be coupled in any way.
I don't know Vash, the Old Testament is a holy book for Christians too and they accept everyone before Jesus. I think what seperates the character of Jesus is that it's a character of "absolute good" personified. Jesus I think is suppose to be an example of what God would do if God was human, thus they are seen as real examples to follow if one wants to be closer to God. Maybe some see him as originator of benevolence, but from my understanding the above is the only real difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
If you think the Hebrew books are holy to Christians (and I realize they claim it is), look up Christian supercession theory. The only (theological) reason the Hebrew bible is considered holy to Christians is because Christianity needed it (back in the day) to make themselves "legitimate". The book of Leviticus is a law code - there was already PLENTY of examples of what God supposedly wanted humans to do in existence. Most of the Christian bible is re-vamped stories form the Hebrew texts and propaganda that attempted to discredit Judaism.
I think on the issue of superssionism, Christians are split into three different branches.
1. The new covenant is an extension of the old covenant.
2. The new covenant is an addition to the old covenant.
3. The new covenant is a replacement for the old covenant.
The point of view would probably depend on what type of Christian one would speak to. Though there are plenty of passages from the bible to counter the later. Matthew 5:17-20, Romans 1:16-17, John 4:22... so New Testament probably wasn't meant to be a replacement.
Christianity was BUILT on supercession theory, Mish. The books are in conflict regarding religious practice, and the only way to explain the difference in practice is to say that the Hebrew bible no longer applies (unless you are talking about homosexuality, of course. :D ). That is where the "Old" vs. "New" testaments came in - it's strictly a Christian thing.
I also edited my above post, just so you know.
I think that Harry Potter is a really excellent guide for how dedication to the study of magic can lead to vast improvements in our lives. I found the whole Dumbledore-Voldemort juxtaposition very inspiring. I think I'll go make an offering now in my Star Chamber.
Wait! Damn, fresh out of eye of newt. ;)
I think you should start a new Religion :)Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I've already got one, see. Just not very popular yet. Its called 'Grokkism'.
As soon as I can convince Gribble to be my head Groklord, then I'll set up the first chapter. ;)
Convince? Convince??? I'm all ready there. Have those priestesses line up at my door.
Better yet, send them all in at once.
At least my parents didn't have to take me to a big building with a steeple on top every Sunday to get me to read Harry Potter.
Would you believe when I was a kid I used to get myself up early Sunday morning, dress in my best clothes, and walk to Church by myself because my parents wouldn't take me?
Ah yes. The Martyrdom of St. Victor? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
(for those who don't know this is a hilarious Python skit)
Vicar [Michael Palin] reading 'sermon'
And it came to pass that Saint Victor was taken from this place to another place, where he was lain upon pillows of silk and made to rest himself amongst sheets of muslin and velvet. And there stroked was he by maidens of the Orient. Full sixteen days and nights stroked they him, yea verily and caressed him. His hair, ruf-fled they and their fingers rubbeth they in oil of olives and runneth them across all parts of his body forasmuch as to soothe him. And the soles of his feet licked they and the upper parts of his thigh did they anoint with the balm of forbidden trees. And with the teeth of their mouths, nibbleth they the pointed bits at the top of his ears. Yea verily, and did their tongues thereof make themselves acquainted...with his most secret places.
For fifteen days and nights did Victor withstand these maidens, but on the sixteenth day he cried out, saying, "This...is fantastic! Oh...this is terrific!" And the Lord did hear the cry of Victor. And verily came He down and slew the maidens. And caused their cottonwool buds to blow away, and their Kleenex to be laid waste utterly. And Victor, in his anguish, cried out that the Lord was a rotten bastard. And the Lord sent an angel to comfort Victor for the weekend. And entered they together the jacuzzi.
Here endeth the lesson.