Printable View
In the history of mankind there was never the most influential or the most superior culture of all time. There may have been cultures influential at a time, until they were bypassed by another culture, than another, than another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Has Indie made a clear statement referring to a specific culture as the most influential or most superior of all time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Or did you?
Yes she has, and I've already quoted her on thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indireloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Western culture which consists of who and when?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I assume European culture, because that's what western culture usually refers to. When? All time, to date (Indi's words) Assuming from beginning of mankind through the stone age to the dark ages to today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Sounds like a lot of assuming to me, and too much ambiguity.
Maybe you (both) should indulge in specifics before you argue parallel to each other.
Mish is just being pedantic, and he knows it. But he's dug himself too far in his hole that he can't give up w/o losing face or some weird thing.
I already offered to include Africa in the list re: origin of fire, but he ignored that post. :D
You get stuck in a feedback loop, Mish & refuse to let go of an irrelevant idea. Presumably b/c you feel the need to contribute *something* but aren't really sure what it is you want to say.
As I have already said, and Fras & others have already pointed out to you: *I* did not say there was a 'superior culture'. That is your interpretation that is messing up the thread.
But carry on with your PC take on things, Toohey. I will continue to point out why its a problem.
What you posted left very little doubt in my mind (and some of the others) that's what you were saying. A culture with most influential ideas of all time than all others = superior culture.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Perhaps you worded your statement wrong, perhaps like Fras said you weren't very specific and you didn't really mean that European culture had most influential ideas of all time. If you did and I simply misinterpreted, (Which happens, as I do misinterpret people from time to time) then please re word it.
Mish, you can be a real tool sometimes. If you don't understand, perhaps YOU need to think about it a bit more.
Class dismissed.
In other words you stick by what you said and you don't see anything wrong with itQuote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Mish, you're preoccupation with 'right & wrong' on a subject like this really shows just how very naive you are. This is a discussion of what WAS, what IS, and what it might mean for the future. :P
Anyway, reread the posts, Mish, if you care that much. ALL of them, not just the ones you'd like to use to support your dubious argument.
This all started b/c you got miffed that Russia/Soviet Union wasn't mentioned in my list of 'world changing achievements'. Which I said wasn't necessarily complete, just biased towards Western achievement. And it IS. I don't give a crap if you don't like it, but that doesn't change my list. Your added areas of contribution (e.g. medicine) are neither specific, nor culture-changing in the form you listed them. In fact, if I were to go through your additions I would be able to STILL add more Western influence. I didn't even mention the cracking of the genetic code, for example (great medicine? Hell, yes). But, as I said, I don't consider those inventions (tho awesome) to be culture-altering. Not yet, anyway. Tho one could argue the discovery of the genetic code IS a culture-changing invention, like the internet, but that's not the subject of this discussion. It was about ASIAN contribution.
That's not to say ALL contribution is Western (duh, again, I only said *biased*), but the bias is there, nevertheless. It was meant as a foil for comparable asian contribution. And, sorry, but you have to go waaaay back to come up with anything significant from those cultures you mention, and as Gribble & others said, they didn't do much with it except put down their own internal squabbles. That is NOT what I mean when I discuss GLOBAL cultural change.
So, instead of whining about it, why not actually look at the *reasons* for why western influence became so dominant? You might actually learn something.
Jared Diamond does a decent summary of this in his "Guns, Germs & Steel" btw, you might want to pick up a copy.
So, if you don't want to agree with my assessment of history, that is your prerogative, however I think you'll find that the only ppl who will agree with you are small-minded folk who have chips of various sorts on their shoulders. Asian & middle east cultures are integrating western ideas and methods into their own hand over fist. And well they should. Do you think that's an accident?
As for the future, I have also made my views on this very clear. My son is learning Mandarin b/c I'm hedging my bets.
At this point, if this isn't clear to you, Mish, or anyone else: tough. You'll just have to think about this more for yourself. I can't do much better than this.
Okay you admit what you said was biased? That works for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I don't know which ideas you are referring to, but yes there are some western ideas which are being integrated in Middle East and Asia. I agree. The technology gets passed down from one culture to another, like the passing of the torch that I mentioned earlier. It doesn't mean that western ideas are the most influential of all time, it means that some western ideas influence other cultures at the moment. If this is what you meant, then I agree with it. I just don't understand why you couldn't put it in those exact words yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I refuted what Girbble posted about gunpowder with a link to a site and a book written in Cambridge university on the subject. I don't know in what context to interpret the "they didn't do much with it" when in fact Chinese did a lot with it. Though Muslims expanded on that and created the first mass military guns and even first gunpowder powered cannons before the Europeans. Turks even used cannons to take Constantinople from the Greeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
So "they didn't do much with it" referring to technological inventions of the rest of the world in the context of being inferior to European culture is being extremely ignorant of the facts.
I really don't see where they did. Certainly nothing they did compared to what the French and the British managed with that technology.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
If you want to find out in more detail this is the site and the bookQuote:
Originally Posted by Gribble [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder#China[/url]
Chase, Kenneth (2003), Firearms: A Global History to 1700, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0521822742
The fact is Chinese used gunpowder in mines, rockets and created first firearms.
The mongols on their conquests took these inventions into Muslim lands. Muslims created the first guns for mass combat and first gunpowder artillery (Though some will argue there were variants already created by Chinese). By the time the technology reach Europeans it was already complete, Europeans just expanded on existing ideas to make it more efficient and deadly. Though Europeans really pushed the envelope and really expanded on what was there, it's hard to deny that there was an obvious evolution of technology that passed a number of cultures. It's highly unlikely Europeans would achieve what they achieved with it if they weren't already influenced by the eastern variants of the technology.
I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying--and I think this is what Indi's trying to say on a larger scale--that although it originated in China it wasn't until the Western world got hold of it that those weapons were refined and put to world-altering use.
Well what's a World altering use? It was used in a lot of conqeusts by Muslims all over the known world of the time. Is that not World altering use?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I would say invention of the chariot was world altering and even though it was invented by non Europeans as early as 3,000BC the first European use of it is only recorded in 1,400BC (16 centuries later). What does that say about the influence of European culture of all time?
You are implying an 'unfairness', however. I'm not. You are looking for a deeper meaning than there is. A perceived slight where there is none. The data is what it is. I'm simply stating a fact:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
It is^. Too bad, again, if you don't LIKE it. Doesn't change a darn thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Give up Gribble. Mish wants to live in a dream world where everyone & everything is equal. He doesn't understand that were that goal actually achieved, it would be the death of the human species.Quote:
I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying--and I think this is what Indi's trying to say on a larger scale--that although it originated in China it wasn't until the Western world got hold of it that those weapons were refined and put to world-altering use.
hmm...which century are we talking about in now? gunpowder.. war horses? hehe..
*darn, that chinese babe in the ads look real pretty. Of course, who will put a ugly chinese girl for advertisement. :P *
Asian women ARE beautiful. But man, those mixes of african/asian are godesses. I like men, and even I think those women are gorgeous.
More reason to mix that DNA. :)
You are the one living in the dream world Indi. You have some strange idea of "most cultural influence of all time" (read cultural superiority) that you are trying to promote. It's not working, because there is no culture with the most amount of influence of all time. You don't have the facts to prove or even measurements to measure that which you are trying to promote and you already made your conclusions.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
You know, I remember the time when RK made a post on Loveforum about Stormfront (a forum promoting white supremacy). I remember reading the thread he created where these people pounced on him just for being of Indian decent. I remember one of their members even saying something along the lines of "Yeh, and western culture is superior to all others because we have the best ideas and inventions of all time!!". And then a senior member of that forum cut him off and said "No! That's not true, there's no facts to support that and we shouldn't be saying things like that." It's very disappointing that someone from a racist forum understands the implications of saying something as big as this which is unfounded and unsupported by facts and yet someone very educated who I consider even a role model can't understand that distinction.
Lol someone here needs to go through a little history 101.
Anyways I agree with Mishka on the subject; there's no such thing as cultural superiority. America has only been so 'great' because of the outcome of the World Wars, and some of the consecutive wars. Every culture has had a great impact on civilization throughout the course of time.
Neither of those ppl should be having that argument. The first speaker is making a sweeping statement that can't be verified without providing specific criteria. *I* did not do this. You assume much about what my next logical step might be in this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
The second person is trying to probably stop a more global argument from occurring. They are, however, correct that (based on how the first statement was made), that there are no facts to support that statement. "Best" is a subjective term in that particular case. Whether such a thing 'should be said' is something I don't really have a problem with. I think ALL things can be said, and ppl who are reasonable can argue their points.
That said, it might NOT be subjective if there was some specific criteria given for what "best" meant. Generally, however, it is a bad idea to claim 'superiority' of one culture over another, agreed (again, however, I didn't do this). The 'inferior' culture inevitably gets upset and will argue down to specifics instead of referring to what I said about gaussian distributions. So, even if its TRUE that one culture has, objectively, made more significant contributions they will still get upset by it. To that, I say: tough.
If other ppl are inspired by another cultures achievements, then they should work out what the factors might be that allowed for those advances to occur. So they can do it too & then, perhaps, add their distinctiveness to the next human progress.
I think I have a better handle on this issue than you realize. There IS a next logical step to what I'm saying, but I'm not going to be the one to say it. At present, it doesn't seem possible for humans to think this way. I try to deal in reality, Mish.
So, be disappointed in me all you like. I'm sure I'll get over it. :D
And how do you measure the significance of contribution of one culture over the other? How do you measure the significance of the chariot over the significance say one of the things you posted The bible? Is the chariot or the bible more significant and provided more benefit to the world? What standard measurement are you going to use to work out this overall "benefit"? What unit are you going to reduce that standard measurement to and how are you going to judge it? What score are you going to give each one? I'm pretty sure some people will give five stars to either one or both. Which one of these people is going to be right or wrong according to you? And more importantly why should your measurement, your judgment and your score be recognized as valid over anyone elses?Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Mish, I've already said as much as I'm going to on this for now. You know I love you, but I really think you are being a tad small minded about this.
Here's a simple exercise that I might use to quantify "contribution". This is just off the top of my head, mind, but I think it would be VERY interesting to do. Oh, and you'd have to give credit to the culture that made this analysis possible. ;)
Make a 'wiring diagram' of the various cultures and their contributions to the development/advancement of other cultures. The greater the effect, the larger the connection. Invention is only one 'point' in the weighting, tho. Cultures that actually cause the development & spread of a concept also count.
I have a feeling that the Ancient Greek -----> Roman -----> English -----> American connections (i.e. Western) will be quite significant & will outweigh others by a significant margin. In fact, I'm certain of it.
If you want to call that racist or 'unfair', well shrug. To me, its just data. And, it would be interesting if I was wrong. So lets see.
Try it.
YES! And I mentioned muslims. You can still see their influence in places like Spain. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
This is just sour grapes b/c i didn't mention Russia, pretty sure now.
You mean every culture? Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Indireloaded, I highly suggest you do your own research. If you do some reading on the concept of cultural superiority, that'll point you in the right directions.
Other than that you've proved nothing, except that 'superiority' defines only nations who earned their credit in tides of war. Which is pretty much what Mishanya is pointing out.
Sure, why not? There's a finite amount. If we can sequence the human genome, this should be trivial by comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by doppelgaenger [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I won't do it b/c I have other things to think about. And it wasn't my question. This was a suggestion for those like Mish who are concerned about such things. I'm not. I've been around & I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about. But he asked a question, probably rhetorical, and I gave him a tangible way to check. Most ppl who ask rhetorical questions aren't prepared to do the really hard work, they just want to complain.
says the professor who is bored and wasting time on LoveforumQuote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I'm on a well-earned holiday. You won't see me here come Feb. Enjoy it while it lasts. ;)
I'm glad you'd enjoy wasting your well-earned holiday on little old me ;)
I'd like it better if you posted some more of your work. That would be far more interesting than this thread.
And I learn things on here all the time. Its really the only reason I visit now, that and the ppl are nice.
Maybe I will. I have to protect my identity though.
Over winter break I'd like to do some watercolor paintings and some sketches. I have to build up my portfolio. Maybe I could get into the Bauhaus in Weimar.
Right now I am freakin' out. I have to type about 1500 more words for a paper (I totally have word count syndrome right now), and finish 3 paintings. So I am going to get back to work because it's pretty much the middle of the night here ;)
[Okay, let's start with one, take Chariot. For thousands of years it contributed to development / advancement of other cultures. Now let’s compare it to something like genetic engineering which only contributed to development / advancement of other cultures for a couple of decades. How are you going to calculate which one is more significant? If you look at contributions which advanced other cultures, the chariot obviously had a greater effect because it spent a much longer time influencing other cultures than genetic engineering. If you had to divide in years you could probably come up with a 1000:1 influence ratio, does that mean the Kurgan culture (or which ever culture invented it) was 1000 times more significant in their "contribution to the world"?Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I don’t even understand what you are saying here, I don’t understand how those three outweigh all others sorry Indi. I can post something similar Egyptian ---> Mesopatamian ---> Egyptian ---> Saracen ---> Islamic ---> Chinese -- Mongolian Islamic etc…Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
All of this is not Data, it's just plain speculation pure and simple. Show me the real data. Answer the questions I posted to you.
Chariot?
Don't forget about the aliens who put us here on Earth!!!
Remind me of the movie "the day the earth stood still(2008)".. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by doppelgaenger [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
You forgot to say 'please'. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
As for the wiring diagram, I told you, its just an idea. Perhaps you have another?
Anyway, chariots would get a mark for invention. So would the crossbow. And so would the automobile. So, having said that, how would you describe the spread and usage of each of those inventions & their affect on cultural change? Mesopotamia did good with their invention, Rome was phenomenal for their military use. Crossbow got invented & basically wiped out the need for chariot as I understand.
Now, if you do this for major inventions & ideas, I would hypothesize that Western influence would come out ahead. Do you deny that Western culture is currently dominant in terms of our ideas & technology?
In fact, many scholars agree that the #1 invention *ever* is of Western origin. Its made possible everything we know today on a scale that is unparalleled in all human history. Know what that invention is, Mish? Anyone want to take a guess?
Actually, I'll make this simpler for you. Just generate the list for what you think are this chains Top 10 inventions/contributions to humanity. You must be specific, tho. Saying 'medicine' is too open-ended and can be used by any culture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Then we can post a similar one for Greece ---> Rome ----> Europe (including England) ----> Americas.
Then we can compare & contrast.
This should be fun. :D
so where did rice come from??
raverboy
Asia! I said rice was important, but noone listened to me. :oriental:
Check this out:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rice_dishes[/url]