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Tiay needs a hug.
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Tiay needs a hug.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiay
Okay this is even more wrong. If you want to go into history then you have to point out back in egyptian times and such incest was common.
Your "deeply ingrained instict" is called a taboo. That's why some cultures do practice incest without batting an eye. You totally pulled that out of your ass.
And you don't get why they are the same. Even though it has been explained multiple times.
~Blix
Who bumped this stupid thread? It is over one and a half years old. Let it die. It is boring.
It bores you. You can just... not read it?Quote:
Originally Posted by vashti
If threads where ment to be done with just because they are old then the Mods would delete them.
~Blix
I just can't stop agreeing with blix, incest may not be accepted in THIS society but that doesn't mean it's wrong or anything.
some guy called Courious was the first since 2004 to post in this thread.
Haha!! I just realized it was YOU Zyx who wants to f*ck your neice!! No wonder you are so insistent that it is okay!!
hahahahahahahahaha
Seriously - get some help,a nd let this thread die, pretty please...
Vashti is so funny when she is in a corner...
~Blix
I'm in the corner with her, since we both agree on the same points.
We aren't related, so sex in the corner isn't incest. >.>
lol, zarathu and vashti lose this round!:P
I'm going to create a poll in this forum, you should all go and vote:P
I'm tired of this thread too, but yet it's addictive heh :)
I was thinking further back than Egyptian times. Also, the Ancient Egyptians practised birth control, though I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the Egyptians and other folks as well inbred themselves to preserve 'royal blood'.
I pulled it out of my ass?.. really there is no reason to talk to me like that, blix. Using bad language and patronising sarcasm is not a good move when you're having a serious debate. I admit i'm not above this always myself, but still.
Name me a culture that regularly practices incest within close family without batting an eye-- and who's line didn't die out!
Yes, I know I added the word "close" in there. That's because if you look back, you will see I surmised that sex between cousins could be genetically sound in cases where there is enough genetic variety. I just can't personally imagine having sex with my cousins-- maybe that's because they look very similar to me. My first cousin looks a lot like my brother.
In the interest of preserving a bloodline/a successful combination of genes, 'inbreeding' can actually be good, but it needs fresh blood to come in now and then.
the definition of taboo is "a social or religious custom prohibiting or restricting a particular practice "
would you have sex with a sibling? almost 100% of people would say no. but why not? does that seem to you like a social or religious thing, or does it seem like a natural reaction to mixing genes that are too similar?
edit:
i'm sorry I still don't understand why you think homosexuality and incest is the same thing. Can you please explain it again? You don't have to make me look stupid for it. Why would you fight below the belt-- do you not think you can 'win' fair and square?
No, I wouldn't. That's because it's taboo and besides that I just don't feel like -- like you said. Though even though most don't want to do it doesn't mean there's any reason not to. There's a whole bunch of biological stuff to talk about too but that may be getting to deeply into it.
Incest is taboo. ***SOCIALY*** wrong. Not naturally or [Entirely] against the laws of nature. Think of what social is.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest[/url]
~Blix
Oooh I have a question for you Taiy. You say that incest gives you a deep feeling that it's wrong inside you right? Doesn't the thought of having sex with another women do that to you too [Unless you are bisexual/lesbian in which case it doesn't apply]. I know the thought does for me to think of being with guys, the same as incest. Though obviously it doesn't to homosexuals.
~Blix
So, what you're saying is that you are affected by the taboo, which is why you wouldn't have sex with a sibling?
Now that I think about it, I don't think I can argue with it being taboo by that the definition I quoted before ("social or religious custom..") that would already make it a taboo because the church is against it.
But I maintain that it is also a natural, evolutionary thing. Animals do not have culture or religion, and yet they still adhere to the taboo somehow. And before you point out the birds that mate with first cousins; those birds are also adhering to the taboo.. the genetics on which the "taboo" is based is just different for them.
quote from that wikipedia page:
...studies have backed up the hypothesis that some psychological mechanisms are in play that "turn off" children who grow up together. .... .Wolf and Huang (1980) report similar aversions in Taiwanese "child" marriages, where the future wife was brought into the family and raised together with her fiancee. Such marriages were notoriously difficult to consummate, and for unknown reasons actually led to decreased fertility in the women. ... .While the exact nature of kin-recognition psychology is still waiting to be defined, and to what degree it can be overcome by cultural forces is as yet poorly understood, an overwhelming body of research now shows that evolutionary biology and evolved human psychology plays a central role in human aversion to incest."
wow, decreased fertility? that's an actual physical change. That sounds to me like a 'deeply ingrained' natural aversion.
for some reason my brother has decided to stand around on my room looking at books.. grr..
anyways
for your question:
I think I have strong bi tendencies. Like, I prefer guys, but i'm not naturally repulsed by sex with a woman.
Well I guess I can't speak for women. Though most guys will tell you, and I feel a sick feeling to think of homosexuality. Though I'm not saying ti doesn't work for others.
You want to relate it to the animal world... Most animals don't partake in homosexuality either...
~Blix
hm, I found the wikipedia definitions of incest and inbreeding interesting. Like, how incest laws outlaw couplings that aren't actually too close genetically. In such a case, I certainly see nothing wrong with it.
you say animal world as if humans weren't animals. :P dont' you believe in evolution?
I think that we can safely say that we're comparing man to beast, in the animal catergory.
If you were comparing man vs man then you make no sense, so please don't try to BS me with "Man is a type of animal".
~Blix
Why should I believe in Evolution? I think it was a combination of creationism and evolutional tendancies. I really don't think everything evolved from one being or whatever it is Darwin wants us to believe.
~Blix
I'm not sure I understood that. yes.. humans are just another species. We are a lot more complex, but have only evolved in the last nanosection, speaking on an evolutionary timescale.
also, here's a list of animals for which there is documented evidence of homosexual or transgender behavior.. and I suspect there's a ton more species, we just haven't proved it yet.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_practicing_homosexual_behavior[/url]
I'm going to give up on this argument. You win.
/handshake
~Blix
thats very nice of you, though I don't think there should be a winner or a looser in this kind of thing- I'd rather know that I've made you think. You really made me think about some things. heck, I totally shot myself in the foot with the definition :P
edit
yikes don't get me started on creationism :lol:
You have. Though I can see your point of view.
~Blix
cool :) man I love debating ^.^.. I'm gonna sleep now :P
Reminds me of an article about couples arguing, and how if done properly it brings people closer together.. I've always found that to be true.
Yay! I love you, too. Night.
~Blix
I'm going to touch you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiay
I always thought that quote thing was open to abuse.. ¬.¬
ok now i'm REALLY going to sleep. well.. maybe i'll listen to some podcasts first.. and floss. ...I might as well photograph the sunrise .. did you know that it's been shown that sleeping when it's dark is much better, and if you stay up in the evening regularly for more than 20 years you're almost bound to develop some kind of illness or problem, directly or indirectly from staying up late? .. I do. Yet I still stay up. Aren't I logical?.. :/
You're delightful, Tiay. Your arguments are well thought out and you back them up. You actually consider other peoples' opinions. It would be a shame to lose you to some kind of illness or problem...
so go to bed!
Aw, thank you, Giga :) that means a lot to me.
Maybe I should move to a more convenient time zone- Or somewhere where it's always dark.. Iceland in winter?
edit;
and hey, you're delightful too :) I always enjoy reading your posts.
According to your theory there's nothing wrong with incest as long as you didn't grow up together. And genetically the aversion comes from wanting to mate with someone better as yourself and family usually isn't.
just because the quote was limited to that particular type of kin-regocnition does not mean there aren't other ways in which humans- and indeed animals - guard themselves against breeding with relatives that are too closely related.
Research shows that we can even gather clues from the smell of someone else's sweat whether they are genetically suitable mating material.
Basically, by showing in my argument that there is a very strong kin-regocnition system in us to prevent us from mating with family, I am also supporting the argument that most people's disgust at sex with cousins is more deeply rooted than a cultural or religious taboo.
so.. you're saying the only reason there's a genetic aversion to mating with family is because family isn't good enough socially. In saying this you defy all accepted genetic facts.
edit:
also, the end of the quote which I highlighted ( "an overwhelming body of research now shows that evolutionary biology and evolved human psychology plays a central role in human aversion to incest.") was a broader statement not just referring to sex with those you grew up with, but the human aversion to inbreeding in general.
People don't mate with family because mostly their "smells" (Actually deeper genetic stuff, hormones and all that) are to closely related.
Your body wants to mate with another person who has different strengths than you do (On the inside, not the outside) that's what the sent is for.
Now if someone in a family DOES find someone not closely related enough to be attracted to them genetically (Which will be a rare thing to happen) then it will make sense.
Oh and another point...
If say a girl is adpoted into a family at 2 years old and a boy was already in that family, 2 years old. They live together for the next ~16~ years in the same house as Brother and Sister. They then fall in love and live together.
Doesn't your brain tell you this situation is weird, even though they actually aren't related at all?
It's a bit more of what is behind the words Brother/Sister/Cousin etc.
~Blix
yeah, you are more likely to be attracted to people who genetically compliment you. That is, they're not too close, AND not too far away either.
smell-wise (lol ?) I suppose a person raised as a sibling who isn't actually related would be okay dating-material, genetically at least.... but it would feel super weird. Maybe the logical mind can overcome the chemistry, but as the quote from before said, arranged marriages where the unrelated couple was raised together found it hard to see each other in a romantic light. Maybe this is simply a side-effect of eliminating sibling sex, ie the person is falsely identified as a close relative. Or maybe this also keeps the family unit together, which may be more important for survival.
Yay! You just furthered my point that the taboo is on the Brother/Sister/Cousin etc titles.
~Blix
I don't believe there's any reason at all to be disgusted by a relationship between family. And all that research stuff is bull-crap. I'm just not buying it. I believe in Darwin and if you were unwilling to mate with family you'd have less chance of getting childeren and so people who ARE willing to mate with family pass that on and that is why any aversion from mating with family must be non-genetical.
p.s. any possible birth-defects with mating between family must have already been in the family and enhanced by the fact that both parents had that gene. If your family is healthy there's no chance anything can go wrong.
Think about it this way, too. What if a man and a women never knew they were cousins. They meet at 20 as strangers, fall in love, marry, live together for 50 years and never learn they are related. IF they do have a child and by chance it does come out with some disease (Which is propbably a pretty minimal chance from what we've gone over) still know one will actually know. Or better yet one child who is perfectly normal and another who has something wrong.
It only gets weird when I add that elemental word "cousin".
~Blix
exactly, as long as no one knows they're family it doesn't matter which means that it must be just the word family that makes it disgusting, TABOO
yeah, it happens that way all the time. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Blix
Fine, they get divorced after 5 years. Still doesn't really vary the point.
I thought you wanted it to die? You just bumped it. ;)
~Blix
[Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
what have I said about this not being a winning/loosing thing? I don't think I have moved much from my original stand-point, and if you do make me think enough to make me reconsider an opinion, it is not a 'victory' for anybody, rather a strengthening and refinement of knowledge. Does nobody get proper discussions anymore?Quote:
Originally Posted by blix
they result in crippled children? would you have sex with a sibling?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyx
Why, then, are all animals unwilling to mate with close family? as I have said before; animals don't have a society or religion, so how can it be a taboo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyx
if you inbreed, you pass on the good genes, but also the bad ones. In order to get healthy offspring, new genes must _always_ come in; this passes on the good genes on both sides, complimenting each other's weak points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyx
I am not enough of a geneticist to really argue back with technical terms. I can however tell you that simply this is not true. It is a proven fact that inbreeding results in much much higher chances of birth defects. For instance, if you buy a "purebred" dog, you are more likely to get defects; deafness, hip problems, etc. In fact, many breeds have their own trademark illnesses.
This is because in order to make a dalmation with dots, a doberman with the right markings, whatever, the breeders had to inbreed a little to propagate those chosen traits. Whereas mongrels are usually much healthier; proven fact. This basic principle is the same for all animals.
As I have said before, some "light" inbreeding can actually be good for preserving useful combinations of genes. This is why I presume that cousins having sex would be ok if there was enough variety.
what i'm saying, though, is that they wouldn't have to know the emotinal word 'cousin' to smell the incompatible genes. Well, that, or they happened to be compatible, in which case they most likely wouldn't get birth defects anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by blix
has it occurred to you guys that maybe it is not just a word? "family" is not just a combination of letters, it means something. Say, an extreme example, a brother and sister are estranged. And they meet not knowing they are family. I'd say the chemistry would be wrong right off the bat and they wouldn't get together anyway, but let's assume that they both can't smell or something. You're saying that when he finds out she's his 'sister', it's the WORD that puts him off, not the revelation that if their future children would probably be defect, thus making their gene line much more likely to end?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyx
Making sure that your genes survive is a very very strong instinct in all animals, because, after all, all those who ensured that their line continued are still around.
Bear in mind that unrelated couples who find out that they are both carriers of the same illness usually decide not to risk having more children because of this.