oh my. lol
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oh my. lol
Pooh on you. At least put it in Brain Juice, then. And what have *I* been pounding, except to say that I'm one of the few that actually has experience in both healthcare systems? Mish has firmly taken the reigns on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by misombra [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Question for Mish:
Do you know whether Australia has a reciprocal care agreement with Canada? I know they do w/the UK, but I can't easily find the same info for Canada (seems likely given the similar systems & we are all Commonwealth). I need to know this.
I would have just PMd, BTW, but I thought ppl might be interested to know about the existance of these agreements. Seemed related to the thread.
i saw a cut vid of wat it's like in holland i think. it was perfect!
I find this incredibly interesting, these conversations. Thank you guys!
Vash, I cant imagine what youre going through, definte hoops Im sure. Youre in my prayers, goodluck sweetie!
Alritey, I'm backQuote:
Originally Posted by misombra [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Let's dive back into it
What did I show you? I showed you an article which explained that the health care for Native Americans is far worse than it is for white people in US. You must have been an excpetion to the rule. I will post the quote again for you, since you so easily forget:
Native Americans are also disadvantaged with respect to access to care: for example, compared to whites, they are less likely to have had a doctor or health professional visit in the previous year, less likely to be confident they can get care when they need it or to be satisfied with the care their family receives, and more likely to report communication problems with their health care provider.
You can find a lot more on the subject matter on the aricle I posted. That and how a lot more native americans live in EXTREME poverty compared to all other ethnic groups in your country. No, the way native americans are treated in US is worse than Aborigines arte treated in Australia.
Is that what you call your posts after they are debunked? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by misombra [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Mish, I already told you (and you ignored) that the reason Native Americans live in substandard conditions is because they want to stay on the reservations. They have a choice to leave and get a job, healthcare, etc, but they don't WANT to.
The only ones who seem to have been able to make it financially on the reservations are the tribes that put in casinos. They are raking in the money in California.
Yeah, this is bullshit. Here in Oklahoma, "Natives" have a choice to whether they want to be registered with their tribe or not. They're treated no differently than anybody else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
In fact, they're probably treated better than most minorities when you consider all the ridiculous educational benefits/offers they'll get when they check off "Native American" on standardized tests.
EDIT: Also, representing the asian and white demographic, I do not have health insurance either. I could get it, but then I'd probably be breaking even month to month and thus, would not be able to do the things I want to.
I can vouch for the casino thing. They have plenty of reservations in WI and holy cow are they making the money!
Im still on the fence about the healthcare. A part of me feels we should have some sort of Universal Health Care but I dont know that I want to pay the taxes for someone else. Yet, I look to what I pay NOW verses what the govt would take in lieu of. I like having the choice of who I can see to some degree. I have a great plan with so many participating Drs.
Im peeved my taxes pay for illegals NOW. So what makes me think I want to pay on a higher scale, I dont. Medicare and Medicaid is great but Im not old yet. Will it truly be there when I get up there? They've already changed so many things in that system.
Welfare, well, I was on it for years. I HATED IT! But I got off my ass ASAP went to school so I could support myself and son. Michigan implemented anyone on welfare only had like 2 or 3 years (if I remember correctly) to use the system, after that they cut you off. The state of FL has plenty of illegals and plenty of welfare system families. I see it EVERYDAY damn day the welfare families whom dont get off their ass to get a job. But yet here they are several kids and more to boot, but they drive a nicer car than I do. There are ways of hiding it.
I think MM's bottom line is that the USA should implement a better system to take care of its citizens. I agree to a point. His movie raised an eye for me. But also knowing SOME of these countries like Cuba, I wouldnt move there, ah hell no. Its a toss and whats important to you. Again, talking to people from Canada, they prefer it there socially more than here.
Theres nothing I can do to change this country, voting, dont think it really matters in the end. Its all about the damn money no matter what the issue.
That's not necesserily correct. If you are born in a poor family and are not taught how to succeed chances are you will remain poor for the rest of your life. Picture yourself having no money, having nothing on your resume that could give you a good job, having no knowledge of what's required of you out there to succeed, how are you going to do it? Picture yourself in a poor person's situation. Picture yourself as one. What would you do?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSphinx [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Then imagine, just when you just started to succeed and make a better life for yourself you suddenly found you had a health condition which if only you had medical insurance you wouldn't have to spend every last penny you earn on it.
At the moment money is taken from your pocket to fund social services such as postal services, fire departments, police, library services. Is it also unjust that you have to pay for that? You don't necesarily use them all the time, why should you be paying? What about roads? You don't neccesarily use those all the time as well, espeically if you don't have a car. Is it unjust that money has to be taken from your pocket to pay for them?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSphinx [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
And how about this. Money is being taken from your pocket to fund a war in another country. Is it just or unjust that you are paying for this war when you could've just spent that money on universal health care instead to make your health care system more fair?
Universal healthcare is not just a tool to take your money and give to the poor, it's a system that puts money into hospitals to make sure they can cope with the influx of people. It's a system that insures you don't loose all of your money simply because you got sick one day. And it's a system that makes health care distribution more fair for all citizents in your country. Just like fire departments don't charge for insurance and only service the insured, health care should be provided on the same basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSphinx [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Imagine iffire department operated in the same way as health care system in your country? Imagine your neighbour's house burns down and noone responds. Then fire spreads, your own house catches on fire, by the time someone responds to your call you'll have nothing left. You can apply the same logic to health care. If you don't consider being empathic as a moral duty, consider diseases how much easier these could spread if tens of millions of people are simply refused treatment if they are uninsured.
And think about this you don't live as just "you" in your country. You live as part of a social order that provides you and regulates a lot of luxuries that many countries around the world simply can't afford and don't have. If you lived by yourself somewhere in the desert, you wouldn't have so many choices and opportunities as you have right now. You have them partly because of the efforts of the poor, of the people who on the daily basis provide services doing crappy unrewarding jobs. Don't you think you have a social responsibility to make sure these people have at least basic health care?
Fras, this is my concern, youre not insured. WHAT IF? What if something happens to you and you need series medical treatment? HOW do you pay for it? I ran around for 7 yrs with no insurance and omg I just couldnt do it anymore knowing what was coming. I finally raised hell with my employer and got it. Thank God. But you and like myself I do worry about it, we work our asses off to just get by, so how fair is it youre uninsured? What are you going to do? Go bankrupt? Lose everything? See what Im saying. People like us is who Im worried about.
I'm not quite sure about that Indi. But I know that there is a good relationship between our two countries. We have a lot of things similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
A lot of young people choose not to purchase health insurance, and most of the time, they don't need it because they are still healthy. It's a gamble...
We have a similar issue with Aborigines in Australia. I mentioned this because Miso seemed to insist that native americans have it so much better in US, when in fact their situation is just as bad if not worse compared to Aborigines here.Quote:
Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
By the way, I support the cause of Aborigines and would vote for any plan to improve their conditions even if it meant paying higher taxes.
you didn't debunk my post. you asked a question while continuing to fail to get it. sorry mish. get a sense of humor, maybe then you will get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I don't know what it's like in Oklahoma, but statistically (Around the country) they have it a lot worse. Please read the article I posted. I can link you up with more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Well, wouldn't you want to be covered automatically? Then you won't have to worry how much money you will loose if something happens to you. If you are saving up for something, you won't have to worry that if you have a health problem you won't have to choose between saving up and suffering or paying the doctor and loosing all of your savings?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Okay, now you're just starting to make things up.Quote:
Originally Posted by misombra [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
no, you're not hearing me. i did not insist that. i was just trying to point out that people also fall through the cracks in your health care system and if you have enough to energy to focus on our health care system, maybe you should turn your focus toward your own country, don't you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
but if you do want to focus on ours, come down here for a while and see for yourself what it's like.
I would need to see some comparative data about that. While I know that certain tribes are in bad shape, the California tribes - as I said - are raking in the money. So much, in fact, that a lot of people are starting to oppose the casinos because they are exempt from paying federal, state, and local taxes. Maybe they should take the money they are rolling in and purchase some sort of tribal health insurance?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I wouldn't mind being an Indian in California (or any other state that allows casinos).
I don't need to see your websites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Look at it this way, the amount of Natives pales in comparison to most minorities in the US. Plus, under the circumstances stated by Vash, the percentage of them not having insurance would easily be greater.
This idea that they're treated worse than Australia's Natives is something I cannot argue against, because I've never lived in Australia, but I can tell you that Natives have the same opportunities if not more than any minority in the United States.
Here in Oklahoma (aka "Native America"), the reservations here actually have their own hospital. I don't know whether or not if Natives living on the reservations even need insurance or not. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.
I have my focus on my own country and I do what I can to help as I already said in my previous posts. This thread is not about my country though, it's about yours. I know there are problems in my country as well and I try to help as best I can. But what about you? Do you try to help as best as you can in your country as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by misombra [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Are you inviting me over? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by misombra [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
and your posts take up the majority of it. but keep going. they actually prove how little you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Are you inviting me over? :)
sure. you can stay at giga's house. maybe she could flirt with you in front of caliboy.
I couldn't find comparative data for you Vash which compares apples to apples because census formats are different in our countries and because Australia doesn't have citizents which are uninsured.Quote:
Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
But I know from personal reasearch that life for native americans especially outside cities is not peachy. Native Americans are not one race, they are many races seperated by tribe and state. So even though you say "they" referring to Californian Native Americans, these could be entirely different people compared to Native Americans in the east. This is from US government sources.
Native American Quotes:
[url]http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/002484.html[/url]
Health Insurance
Based on a three-year average (2001-2003), 27.5 percent of people who reported American Indian and Alaska native as their only race were without coverage, lower than the uninsured rate for Hispanics (32.8 percent) but higher than that of the other race groups. Comparisons of two-year moving averages (2001-2002 and 2002-2003) showed that the uninsured rate for American Indians and Alaska natives did not change.
[url]http://www.policyalmanac.org/social_welfare/archive/poverty_statistics2001.shtml[/url]
The three-year-average (1999-2001) poverty rate for American Indians and Alaska Natives was 24.5 percent, with an estimated 800,000 living in poverty.
[url]http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/IncomePovertyWelfare/HighPoverty/Analysis.htm[/url]
The high poverty rate in 40 nonmetro counties resulted from low income among Native Americans, including Alaskan Natives. The poverty rate of Native Americans in these counties was 41 percent, a level greater than that of the dominant minority in other types of high-poverty counties. The Native American counties did not simply have a greater incidence of poverty, they also had the highest proportion in deep poverty. A full fifth of the total population in these areas lived in households with incomes below 75 percent of the poverty line.
Native Americans in high-poverty counties are much more likely to be children (along with the parent or parents with whom they live) than older people, compared with high-poverty minorities in other areas. Native American high-poverty counties have 5.9 poor children under age 18 for each poor person age 65 and over.
This is an excellent point & is already relevant (ref: various drug-resistant strains of microbes). So many reasons NOT to stay in a hospital these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Miso, you sometimes susrprise me with your irrational randomness in response to my posts. How does this have anything to do with talking about US health care in US health care thread instead of Australia?Quote:
Originally Posted by misombra [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Yup, come over. I'll show you aroundQuote:
Originally Posted by misombra [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
You're inviting me over to Giga's house instead of your own? What a great friend you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by misombra [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
i was quoting you mish. lol.
anyway, it had nothing to do with the topic. i already spoke my peace. i have no time or energy to argue with you.
Heh, I feel like that says it all right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
People need to learn to stop poppin' out the babies.
My girlfriend works for a non-profit agency funded by the government that processes and determines whether or not a family will get free or discounted daycare.
The majority of the applicants she says she's processes are single moms with at least two children, and often between 3-5 children. Being in Texas, many of them are Mexican.
I rarely feel sorry for those mothers.
Make a choice to gain the knowledge I need or do the work I need to advance.Quote:
Picture yourself having no money, having nothing on your resume that could give you a good job, having no knowledge of what's required of you out there to succeed, how are you going to do it? Picture yourself in a poor person's situation. Picture yourself as one. What would you do?
Well isn't that hell? I can't count the times I've saved up money and then lost it due to sudden home repairs, vehicle maintenance, etc. It's a risk of living, but in answer to this scenario - I would spend every last penny and then get to work on making more pennies right away.Quote:
Then imagine, just when you just started to succeed and make a better life for yourself you suddenly found you had a health condition which if only you had medical insurance you wouldn't have to spend every last penny you earn on it.
Yep, but I use all of these, so I have no quarrels. I can vote for officials who will in turn, vote for, create or modify bills which affect the operations of each of the examples you listed. Let me know if you hear of a candidate who says he is going to make a law which requires people eat only certain foods along with banning "unhealthy" food businesses and mandating that, under threat of punishment or fines, one must exercise regularly.Quote:
At the moment money is taken from your pocket to fund social services such as postal services, fire departments, police, library services. Is it also unjust that you have to pay for that? You don't necesarily use them all the time, why should you be paying? What about roads? You don't neccesarily use those all the time as well, espeically if you don't have a car. Is it unjust that money has to be taken from your pocket to pay for them?
I helped put some of the officials who voted for the war in office by voting. I made a choice, and now I am living with the consequences. It's hard to say what sort of attacks (if any) we would be facing here in the United States if we had not responded in such a manner. We'll probably see more as a result of our actions. But I would be pretty upset if I walked cheerfully out of a free hospital visit with a clean bill of health only to get torched in some sort of bombing.Quote:
And how about this. Money is being taken from your pocket to fund a war in another country. Is it just or unjust that you are paying for this war when you could've just spent that money on universal health care instead to make your health care system more fair?
I have no problem with people who have a lot of purchasing power being able to afford things I can't. Life isn't fair and I can live with that. Can you?Quote:
And it's a system that makes health care distribution more fair for all citizents in your country.
Imagine a privately owned fire department. They will respond damn quick if they want to keep my business. They will have to offer a better service and reasonable price compared to the fire department across the street for me to sign on in the first place.Quote:
Imagine iffire department operated in the same way as health care system in your country? Imagine your neighbour's house burns down and noone responds. Then fire spreads, your own house catches on fire, by the time someone responds to your call you'll have nothing left. You can apply the same logic to health care. If you don't consider being empathic as a moral duty, consider diseases how much easier these could spread if tens of millions of people are simply refused treatment if they are uninsured.
I also owe a huge "thank you!" to the rich who took the time and energy to dream up, plan and set successful businesses in motion. They provide me with a job!Quote:
You have them partly because of the efforts of the poor, of the people who on the daily basis provide services doing crappy unrewarding jobs. Don't you think you have a social responsibility to make sure these people have at least basic health care?
And social responsibility?
Don't get me wrong, Mish, I love to volunteer and I will donate money on occasion, but how can a responsibility be altruistic?
~Sphinx
Someone should warn Sphinx that Mish will literally argue until the end of time, saying the same old thing 1000 different ways if you let him.
Don't you get it mish? We don't agree with you. That is really all there is to it. Feel free to import our poor if you feel so sorry for them.
Thanks Vashti.
I wouldn't call my last post an orgasm of the mind, but I still felt immediately sleepy and in want of a cigarette after responding.
~Sphinx
I thought it was worth toasting. You bring the cigarettes, I'll bring the liquor. :)
What if you had no means of attaining the knowledge you need or had no means to work to advance?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSphinx [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
What if you had no previous work experience and thus had no way of making more pennies right away? Have you ever lived on minimum wage in the past?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSphinx [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
You use every single police station, postal office, fire department and road in the country? Could it posibly be that you use less than you actually pay in taxes for? Do you feel that you should pay less tax on these commodities knowing this?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSphinx [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
It's evident as opposed to the popular belief at the time of the invasion, Iraq did not pose any clear or present danger to United States of America. No Weapons of mass destruction had been found. The war that you have effectively supported ended up costing you while gaining nothing in return. Many articles on after effects of the war claim that war in Iraq did not provide any additional safety to US citizents and could have resulted in more undeground terrorist activity both at home and overseas. In other words, not only did you not recieve the safety you were hoping for, not only thousands more of US lives were sacrificed (If you read the casualty list), but you as a businessman didn't get any return on your investment which could have provided a free universal healthcare to boost hospitals in your country.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSphinx [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
How does that make you feel?
I can live with life being unfair, while at the same time trying my best to make it fair. I can make a difference. Can you?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSphinx [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I can imagine a privately owned fire department that only responds to its customers and no one else. I can imagine you as customer seeing your neighbours house burn down and nobody appearing until after your own house had started burning. I can see a privately owned fire department cut costs and corners to stay "Competative". I can see a privately owned, unregulated fire department driven by profit not responding to even its own customers if it doesn't for one reason or another suit their financial needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSphinx [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I agree with that. I have no quarrel with rich people as a class.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSphinx [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I don't understand your question Sphinx. A responsibility or responsible action can be altruistic and an altruisitc action can be responsbile.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSphinx [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
For example, previously mentioned "Medicaid" in US. Health system that provides insurance for the old. Is a socially responsible policy which is also altruistic. Do you believe it's not right that health care of the elderly should be funded by your tax money?
Do you believe that there is a social responsibility? Do you believe for example there is a social responsibility to pay taxes?
Save your cigarette for now, this is going to be a long and interesting conversation when I come back ;)
I learnt it from you ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I get it. You don't agree with me because even though you do altruistic acts and do voluntary work deep down inside hides a dark selfishness. One that even if simply given a choice to vote for universal health care would still reject it. One that doesn't care that US hospitals (including your own) get run down because they provide free services without any compensation, one that doesn't care about the plight of poorer people than you (And even resents them for being poor as if they have a choice between being poor or being rich), one that puts personal pride ahead of other people as long as you don't have to pay a little bit extra in taxes. Or as long as noone re-evaluates the current US tax system and diverts the "war funds" towards Health care.Quote:
Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I get it. This is why you disagree. I just want you to admit it :)
Tsk Mish, shame on you for even trying this. Even I disagree with this post, tho I am sympathetic to your Cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Two things come to mind: one can't give everything to everyone; Vash has made her choice where she wants to do her 'giving'. Its not a choice *I* would have been able to make (nursing makes me gag), does that make ME selfish? I don't think so, I just spend my energy elsewhere.
The other thing is: there are many paths. And the beauty of democracy, which I know you support, is that there are other alternatives to solving a problem. Vash made a very clear statement earlier about how everyone should just work productively and pay their own health insurance. Dunno if that's her Official Voting Position, but I could see how someone might decide to vote for someone who was pro-economy & job creation rather than interested in Universal Health Care.
I'm just stating the facts Indi. It's posible for a person to be alutristic in one area and yet at the same time be selfish in another. I acknowledged Vash's contributions and I told her that I aplaud her efforts in that regard. However Vash's official voting position is against universal health care. She said she's against paying higher taxes that would improve hospitals in US including the one she works at as well as make the health system in her country fairer for everyone. Not only that, but she also appears to be against any alternative measure of diverting funds from other areas such as war in Iraq to fund universal health care that wouldn't require anyone to pay higher taxes at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
So Indi, if this is not a display of selfishness then what is it? How do you describe this phenomenon? Please help me understand.
It's choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
You ain't no fúcking angel.
You don't want to understand, you're just looking to get more ammo to use in your argument.Quote:
I get it. This is why you disagree. I just want you to admit it
Just stop.
I know I'm not, and yet even someone as bad as me supports universal health care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I just don't understand this choice. Support lower tax over hospitals in need of funding? While continuing to support and fund an unnecessary war through tax? I'm being honest, to me it seriously doesn't make any sense. I could understand if there was no choice. If there were no political parties to vote for who could bring this change, but when there are?
You are a fool, mish. I have voted in favor of other plans for providing health insurance to the uninsured. (Prop 72) Your belief that things have to be YOUR way in order to be the RIGHT way is extremely arrogant, and your self-righteousness is obnoxious. I hope you don't carry these traits into your personal life (although I strongly suspect you do).
Anyway, I'm done entertaining you.