Mutts.. mixed breeds.. heinz 57

You still think this issue is about blame, Indignant. Its well beyond that. The only thing I'm personally disappointed about Israel for is continuing to resort to violence in order to find a solution. Same for Palestine. Both sides have done far too much violence to claim a moral superiority of either. Pointing fingers & striking back hasn't helped the ppl in that region for, 60 years, as you correctly point out.

Its that saying about 'staying on the same path will only get you where you are already headed'.

Anyway, this is like trying to explain to someone who just got mugged why walking around late at night in a slum might be a bad idea, but with the added complication that some of those ppl feel they *need* to be there. Ppl like you & Vash are very emotional about the Arab-Israel situation. And when emotions are up, intellect goes down.

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Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Oh brother. What a bunch of sentimental dribble, indi. really, I am surprised at you. You can stop with the rhetoric. Would I shed a tear if the Pals were nuked? Of course. Do you imagine everyone but you is incapable of understanding what is going on over there? Can you really be so arrogant as to think that your position is the only one with merit?

We've argued about this before. There is no peace because the Pals (especially those in Gaza) don't want it in large enough numbers. If they did, they'd elect someone peaceful. Giving a racist organization like the UN more power would be a death sentence to Israel.

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That was a great rant Vash, but I'm still waiting to hear what YOU think the solution should be, or at least moving towards.

Its not rhetoric, its just being reasonable. We have the luxury of being able to be such. Your local environment is secure, so why allow yourself to get so emotional over this? I don't think I know any more than you or Indig, I do think I might be able to think about it a bit more clearly tho.

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Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

What a stupid argument. The U.N. made Israel what it is today, not the bible.

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I know that, and it was obviously a mistake.

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please tell me then where Jewland should be? Or maybe they have done something not to deserve their own country?

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Jewland shouldn't be anywhere, why do they need to have special ground just for them?

But before you go there, I don't think anybody would have cared so much had that land not been occupied before hand.

Shit, what have I done not to deserve my own country?

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Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I know that, and it was obviously a mistake.

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Well, you can thank Germany for making it a necessity. I would certainly have rathered it not come to this point.

I really love the fact that Indig & Vash are just reinforcing each other's position. This must be what its like when jewish or arab folks get together.

And I'm not even taking a side on this, just discussing whether peace might be possible. LOL, I don't suppose it occurs to either of you how self-defeating that attitude is?

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Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Well, you can thank Germany for making it a necessity. I would certainly have rathered it not come to this point.

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Here's a question that I've withheld for a while because I never bothered with these discussions:

Were you always offended by the same shit Jews get offended by before you converted? Or did you just kinda pick that all up after the fact?

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Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Well, you can thank Germany for making it a necessity. I would certainly have rathered it not come to this point.

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Another brilliant solution. :P What is, IS Vash. How does reliving the past help the present?

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Your local environment is secure, so why allow yourself to get so emotional over this?

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Because I was there when the Lebanese war started, and because I have family there.

As for what I think should be done, I would evacuate all people living in Gaza to Saudi Arabia, kick out the Arabs who don't want to be Israeli (along with their families), and build that fence around the entire perimeter. The settlers on the outside can stay out, as can every single hostile Arab.

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Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Here's a question that I've withheld for a while because I never bothered with these discussions:

Were you always offended by the same shit Jews get offended by before you converted? Or did you just kinda pick that all up after the fact?

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Actually, that's a great question. I'd be curious to know the answer too. I think a lot of the problem is this 'hate by association'. Its infectious.

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Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Here's a question that I've withheld for a while because I never bothered with these discussions:

Were you always offended by the same shit Jews get offended by before you converted? Or did you just kinda pick that all up after the fact?

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What a bizarre question. I am offended by some of the same stuff as other Jews, but certainly not everything. Probably pretty much the same as it is for anyone else.

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Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I would evacuate Gaza, kick out the Arabs who don't want to be Israeli (along with their families), and build that fence aorund the entire perimeter. The settlers on the outside can stay out, as can every single hostile Arab.

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So, why can't this be done? You are proposing that all arabs who stay are given Israeli citizenship, right? Who'd be supported by the government as free citizens, right?

I happen to agree with this position, with some details worked out. Like how such an evacuation would proceed and a rapid timeline for getting ppl resettled. And I think that there should be some 3rd party mediation for overseeing the process. Israel could manage it, but there would have to be some guidelines to make sure no abuse occurred.

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Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

What a bizarre question. I am offended by some of the same stuff as other Jews, but certainly not everything. Probably pretty much the same as it is for anyone else.

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I don't think it's bizarre. I've honestly wondered this for years anytime discussions like these would pop up. I remember you saying you would never buy a German car, and I couldn't help but think "why?!". That seems idealistic to the point of absurdity.

I'll always understand the unfortunate dislike for the swastika, but at this point that sentiment is pretty universal among the western world. But things like, avoiding buying a German car or other harmless products.

Did you adopt opinions on things (political and/or ideological) just because you converted and it was the trend within your husband's family? It just seems strange considering you don't have a strong faith (if any), in God.

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Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I don't think it's bizarre. I've honestly wondered this for years anytime discussions like these would pop up. I remember you saying you would never buy a German car, and I couldn't help but think "why?!". That seems idealistic to the point of absurdity.

I'll always understand the unfortunate dislike for the swastika, but at this point that sentiment is pretty universal among the western world. But things like, avoiding buying a German car or other harmless products.

Did you adopt opinions on things (political and/or ideological) just because you converted and it was the trend within your husband's family? It just seems strange considering you don't have a strong faith (if any), in God.

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that's one issue I could never understand about Jews and German cars. I understand where it comes from, but it makes no sense to me whatsoever. it should be applied to all Japanese cars as well then.

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Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I don't think it's bizarre. I've honestly wondered this for years anytime discussions like these would pop up. I remember you saying you would never buy a German car, and I couldn't help but think "why?!". That seems idealistic to the point of absurdity.

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But I told you: I wouldn't buy a German car so long as there are still Holocaust survivors around. I care more about not making an old person feel bad at synagogue than I do about a car. It's not a forever ban. For the record, this is certainly not universal amongst Jews. There are plenty of German cars in a synagogue parking lot.

Yeah, I wonder if Chinese ever drive Japanese cars.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre[/url]