at my wit's end

I'll try to be as accurate and brief as possible.

Been married almost 12 years. We fell madly/insanly in love and got married 13 months later. He always new what I needed, wanted... what I was thinking even. We both did. It was nuts because no one ever knew me like that... no one could affect me like that. No one ever really took the time to understand this complicated person: me. So of course I fell in love with him. And it was great. Then he slowly but surely stopped being that person. Seemed he would retreat into himself and be more comfortable there. Wouldn't talk, wouldn't inquire as to how I am or show interest in how I'm feeling, etc, even when I said I was ill. Stopped saying i love you. Stopped writing little notes. That whole bit. I never cheated. Never did anything but try to please him and be his friend, lover and support. I was never materialistic. Never demanded "things" like many women do. Not even a diamond ring. I wasn't interested in that. Just him! Loved talking to him but it stopped. Loved hearing he loved me but it stopped. I am the only one saying it now, pretty much. Hell say it back but hardly ever first. Seems he never wants to do anything anymore except drink beer and watch tv. Every time I'd have an issue with him, he'd turn inside himself and get very angry.
So here we are at present. Things have been up and down in the meantime. He claims to love me. Claims to be loyal only to me and have zero interest in anyone else the whole time. But he won't touch me (in any way), won't say he loves me, won't talk to me, won't do things with me, won't discuss our relationship with me. Doesn't seem to have any kind of passion for anything in life. Just wants to drink and watch tv. Same thing, day in, day out. I'm going out of my mind on MANY levels. I don't know what to do or think anymore. I feel utterly invisible. When I try and talk to him, he shuts me out. Says he doesn't want to have another one of those, "conversations" (said with comtempt). Then I get punished (silent treatment) for a week or more because I'm, "starting trouble again". Translated: I'm trying to work it out. To communicate. He seems to have a huge resentment towards me and I don't know why. He says because I keep causing problems/trouble in our relationship. It seems totally insane to me. I take care of the whole house, I cook, clean, work, am there for him, don't blow money, don't demand gifts, I'm his #1 fan, I support, I encourage, I praise, I thank. Hell! Any ideas guys? I'm totally and desperatly lost here. Not to mention heartbroken and losing any hope I have left. I feel trapped... I actually feel the way you feel when someone dies... that inescapable grief where you know there's nothing left to do to fix it.
Thanks. I appreciate the feedback.

He's stopped trying. You need to find out why.

Do you have kids?

Yes, but they dont' live with us. They're young adults.

Sorry... for some reason, I only saw the question about kids.

He has told me why. And it's because I'm causing trouble and he has no hope.
It seems like I'm leaving something out, but I'm not. The normal relationship stuff is what he cannot seem to handle. He says we shouldn't have any issues like that... that it's my doing.
*sigh*

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Originally Posted by invisible [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Sorry... for some reason, I only saw the question about kids.

He has told me why. And it's because I'm causing trouble and he has no hope.
It seems like I'm leaving something out, but I'm not. The normal relationship stuff is what he cannot seem to handle. He says we shouldn't have any issues like that... that it's my doing.
*sigh*

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Have you suggested marriage counseling?

Sounds like my ex-husband, only he was still happy to receive blowjobs. Other than that, we could be twins, except for the fact that at the point in my marriage where I determined I was going to commit suicide or homicide, my daughter was only seven years old.

That, for me, is a biggie. I felt that I had a responsibility to her to either fix that marriage or end it. Your circumstance is completely different in that regard.

Okay, first things first: is he retired or something? How is it that he has the leisure to sit around and watch TV while drinking beer all day? And what do you do all day, besides cater to his needs?

I see an opportunity, here. You've made it abundantly clear to him that he isn't holding up his end of the relationship, and he, for whatever reason, isn't stepping up. So what do you want to do? I know you want your old husband back, but he's gone. Gone. I think you should mourn him for a while and then take a long look at the rest of your life.

You can either stay married to this guy, this disappointing person, and realize that the disappointment is largely due to your own expectations, which YOU can revise. You can get out into the world and start some things going for yourself. It sounds like he provides for you- don't take that for granted. That gives you a measure of freedom to do things outside the home that you find interesting.

OR you could divorce him. You seem to be romantically inclined, and to need a strong emotional connection to feel right. I think you're fooling yourself if you think ANY man on this planet is likely to stay romantic forever. They just aren't built that way, so trading him in on another one that might, very possibly, end up the same might just be a waste of time.



"I have learned there is very little difference in husbands, so you might as well keep the first one."
-Golda Meir

Yes, of course. And for years now. We did go for awhile but he'd only get mad when the person told him something about himself he didn't like. Then he said he wouldn't go ever again but recently broke that and said he'd go if I did all the arranging. For once I wish he'd arrange something. Anything. I do everything. But yeah, I haven't done it yet.

I never said he sat around all day, drinking and watching tv. That's only on weekends and in the evenings, when he's not working. Otherwise, he's working. We own our own business. The hours are usually pretty flexible and he often gets off work in the afternoon. He doesn't have to drive far, ever. It's not that stressful. It's going well.
And I have thought about suicide. A LOT. As I said, I feel trapped in this and no way out is easy or even desireable. What can I say... I love him! sounds stupid to say it...
I don't work in our business... I have my own. I do my own work at home and also take care of everything else around here. I honestly don't have time to go out doing things I find interesting. My plate's full.
I was never so delusional to think he would remain so romantic forever. I knew it would wane. That's a given with both genders. But to completely ignore me, my needs (basic ones), etc, is way beyond that. I don't want a bunch of gooey stuff. Just solid love, friendship, intimacy, communication, etc. He isn't capable of anything anymore, or so it seems. Sometimes it feels like he tolerates me. Like I'm a disease in his life. I'm very good at knowing how to be a good friend to people in my life, but this is impossible. I feel like I'm supposed to treat him like I need him to treat me. Like I'm supposed to be both man AND woman in this. Meet everyone's needs, including my own. And like it!

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Originally Posted by invisible [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Yes, of course. And for years now. We did go for awhile but he'd only get mad when the person told him something about himself he didn't like. Then he said he wouldn't go ever again but recently broke that and said he'd go if I did all the arranging. For once I wish he'd arrange something. Anything. I do everything. But yeah, I haven't done it yet.

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Well, you could be the bigger person (as it sounds like you're used to being) and make the arrangements to go to marriage counseling. If he gets mad at the new counselor and refuses to take the opportunity to better your marriage, then you have to leave him.
I know it's disparaging to think about, but BOTH people must be vested in improving a relationship or it's pretty much over.

I'm VERY grateful to everyone's that's responding. Really I am, but are any guys going to step up and give me something from a guy's perspective?

Yes, you're right. Both spouses have to be vested... but if one is sick, stuck or whatever, the other must fill the gap. I'm trying without being rediculous. Maybe it's already rediculous. I still have a little tiny bit of hope, so I keep trying.
He just recently said he'd go again so I will get to it eventually. I'm super busy right now getting ready for a solo show I'm in. It's taking every spare second from me.

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Originally Posted by invisible [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Yes, you're right. Both spouses have to be vested... but if one is sick, stuck or whatever, the other must fill the gap. I'm trying without being rediculous. Maybe it's already rediculous. I still have a little tiny bit of hope, so I keep trying.
He just recently said he'd go again so I will get to it eventually. I'm super busy right now getting ready for a solo show I'm in. It's taking every spare second from me.

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It's normal to hang on and feel a tiny bit of hope. You remember the good times and the love and want, so badly, to have at least some of it back.
I think if he's willing to go to counseling, it's a good sign. He hasn't completely given up yet.
I know you're busy right now, but as soon as you get even the littlest chance, contact a marriage counselor and get that set up...before he changes his mind again.

Best wishes.

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Originally Posted by invisible [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I never said he sat around all day, drinking and watching tv.

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Actually, ya did:

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Just wants to drink and watch tv. Same thing, day in, day out.

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It sounds bleak, and what's worse, it sounds typical. If you can get him to go to counseling, I'll be amazed. It sounds like he's at the end of his tether with this whole "relationship" thing.

It's insulting, isn't it? Here you are, able to do everything you do and carry the marriage as well and he really just isn't interested in doing the work.

I think guys think they can put some initial investment into a relationship and it will just keep going, all on it's own. I don't know why they think this. Men understand that things like cars and lawns have to be maintained, but he's treating your marriage like Astroturf instead. No maintenance.

Lesson learned, all you young'uns out there, thinking you're doing yourselves a favor being the high-performance, low-maintenance girlfriend. Wrong. You're setting yourself up for this situation.

Invisible, I suggest you start insisting on "date night" at the very least.

I was trying to save time and space by being as detailed as I could, and as brief. Obviously I ran the risk of being misunderstood. So I'll clarify...
I never actually said he drinks and does tv, all day. I meant daily. As I said earlier.
I'm by no means, low maintenance. I just don't demand materialistic stuff for proof of love. This is what I meant. We sure used to do all kinds of things together. But he's got some bad stuff going on. His stuff. Not mine.
Again, guys? pipe up dammit. This is getting old. I don't have the time nor the inclination to keep checking this thread. For some reason I thought I'd get some imput. Or, should I say, some menput. hah :p

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Originally Posted by invisible [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I'm VERY grateful to everyone's that's responding. Really I am, but are any guys going to step up and give me something from a guy's perspective?

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Okay

I could be wrong here, but from what I've read so far, the situation seems regular

Whoops

What?

Shock Horror!

Sorry. By regular I mean that the situation you are in is quite common with couples these days (Not that it's normal) There are very few couples I know who had been together for over 12 years who still manage to touch each other without feelings of revulsion. Generally, after first couple of years together the sexual intimacy begins to fade with familiarity, routine and lack of experimentation and opening up of new doors to new experiences. Then like a time bomb other things begin to follow. Emotional reciprocation, intimacy, affection, sentiment all slowly start going down the drain one after another. It's a chain reaction, domino affect, first piece falls and then the other pieces follow.

So, what can be done to stop this effect?

This is the question that I don't think all of us combined will be able to answer. Though, I am of the opinion I know that one thing that may not provide the best solution to this is divorce. When I think about it I ask myself is that just quick remedy for something that would repeat itself after 12 years with another person if you don't find the right solution right now?

The good news is that it's possible to find a solution. The answer to this ultimately lies within yourself and him. A lot of introspection is required to find the actual problem. The actual problem (having incubated for over 12 years) will be a complicated puzzle, a knot which needs to be untangled piece by piece. This untangling will need to be done with the intent to fix the actual problem not to pass the blame. Ultimately this is not the question of who's right and who's wrong, it's a question of what is missing in the relationship to have brought it to this stage, what needs to happen to fix that and are both partners willing to cooperate to arrive at that fixing point?

Your best friends are listening and understanding. Understanding of the needs of both you and your partner. And desires, what is being met and how and what isn't. What is actually missing? A book I found useful is called "7 habits of highly effective people". There is a whole chapter in this book on "empathic listening" I think this will do a great service to you.

One more thing though, if you are thinking about suicide you need to see therapist. It means you are lacking deep down inside a resolve to plan and actively seek a solution (even if it is a desperate situation that doesn't have a workable solution in hindsight). This is going to be a huge challenge and you need to build up skills that encourage you to seek solutions instead of giving up hope.

Like the story about two frogs in a bucket of cream. The frog that stopped trying to get out drowned, while the one that didn't churned cream into butter and was able to escape. This is a metaphor for most problems (even impossible ones) having a solution. They only ever get a hold of us when we stop trying.


Because solution is out there. You just need to know where to look and how to look for it in order to find it.

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Originally Posted by Gigabitch [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I think guys think they can put some initial investment into a relationship and it will just keep going, all on it's own. I don't know why they think this. Men understand that things like cars and lawns have to be maintained, but he's treating your marriage like Astroturf instead. No maintenance.

Invisible, I suggest you start insisting on "date night" at the very least.

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Invisible, I'm going to suggest you read Gigas posts again carefully. She's saying things you might not like, but is essentially correct. I agree w/her.

I also agree w/Mish & his comment that this is very common.

That doesn't solve your problem, of course, just puts it in some perspective.

1. Counselling a good idea to get issues out.

2. Get your husband this book: [url]http://lds.about.com/od/productreviews/gr/howtodatewife.htm[/url]

3. Start organizing dates. Every week. You're kids are grownup/away from the house so you have NO excuse not to do this. It will feel awkward at first. You'll resent having to do all the initial leg work. Do it anyway.

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Lesson learned, all you young'uns out there, thinking you're doing yourselves a favor being the high-performance, low-maintenance girlfriend. Wrong. You're setting yourself up for this situation.

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LOL. Yes, I had to learn this. Its either low performance, low maintenance (& STFU). Or high-perf, high-maint. The other combos don't work.

Try the above for a year. If all else fails, mbe you should consider going out w/friends. Even male friends. Ask your husband if he minds. Yes, its shocking I would suggest this, but at some point you have to decide if being married means being dead. He can't be a hypocrite & expect you to be as boring & disinterested in life as he might want to be. Hopefully, it will never come to that, tho. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Like the story about two frogs in a bucket of cream. The frog that stopped trying to get out drowned, while the one that didn't churned cream into butter and was able to escape.

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I love this 'never quit' metaphor. Thanks Mish.

You're welcome Indi


I just wanted to add my personal belief that the "date nights" are probably not going to work in the current context.

How is going to be motivated to do a date night to impress you if he's not even motivated to look for a solution to the problem?

The real solution to this problem will come from the realm of communication and understanding. How well do you know your husband invisible? Do you know him well enough to know his inner most desires his dreams and aspirations? Do you know which ones are and which ones are not being met? Could you fulfill the one's that aren't?

This is going to be a very personal and deep matter which will require much thought, action and understanding. There will be no "quick" solution. The real solution will come when both of you are on the same level of understanding of each other. When both of you are synergistic in your actions and in trying to find solutions. You need to find a way to get the two of you onto that level. At least a level of mutual respect, this is a good start and ground from which other remedies can be followed.

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Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

You're welcome Indi


I just wanted to add my personal belief that the "date nights" are probably not going to work in the current context.

How is going to be motivated to do a date night to impress you if he's not even motivated to look for a solution to the problem?

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I'm going to stick my head back in & claim the experience card on this one.

I'm not saying Date Night will work longterm, but I'm guessing that her hubby is all Talked Out right now.

Sometimes, you gotta break out of the negative cycle and just do something.

Ever heard that quote about the Motivation Trap? Its the idea that most ppl get it backwards. I'm betting its new to you, so here it is:

The whole idea of motivation is a trap. Forget motivation. Just do it. Exercise, lose weight, test your blood sugar, or whatever. Do it without motivation. And then, guess what? After you start doing the thing, that's when the motivation comes and makes it easy for you to keep on doing it.

Go out w/your husband. Keep the outings short & painless for him. Don't make him think too hard about them at first. Establish some new routines that involve positive interaction. Keep your expectations low at first. Remember, he used to be fun & funny once, remember? So, try & find that again. Then see if you can't slowly work on the issues that are concerning you. Given a bit of positive energy, he'll be more receptive, I'm hoping.

If that fails after trying hard for a year, you may be looking at having to split. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I'm going to stick my head back in & claim the experience card on this one.

I'm not saying Date Night will work longterm, but I'm guessing that her hubby is all Talked Out right now.

Sometimes, you gotta break out of the negative cycle and just do something.

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That's the thing Indi, how and why would he be doing that when he's so busy watching a much more fun TV?

There is a motivation in everything we do. She could perhaps hit him over the head with a shovel and drag him on a date, but apart from that I don't see how he is going to just go for it? There seems to be a big breakdown not only in communication but any kind of interaction between the two. So once again it comes back to motivation, what motivates him to watch TV over spending time with his wife? What is he missing? If she can fill that hole I think they can start moving in the right direction.

Date night would be a time set aside where he had to turn off the Goddamned TV, that's why it would be a good thing.

I'm going to go to the extreme and say that I think TV is a huge contributor to the sad state of the modern family. TV sucks.

Uh huh. We don't watch TV in our house, FYI.

Mish, the OP will need to confirm this, but I suspect her husband isn't so much motivated to watch tv as he is simply 'zoning out' b/c its easy to do. I can't believe you don't know exactly what I mean. All guys I know do it. You probably just do it w/the current issue of the Economist or a newspaper or something.

The issue is not about the TV, the issue is with the lack of motivation to pursue an interest with a spouse.

Imo I don't think they will be able to go on a date night in the current state of their relationship. He is not going to do it. And if he doesn't it doesn't mean all is lost.

It's like saying, if someone is having problems walking, yup start running and your problems will be fixed.


Okay, I will give yous an example which is metaphoric to this situation:

I have two friend co-workers, a guy and a girl. We had been friends for awhile. I equally enjoyed spending time with them. I still spend a lot of time with the guy. But at some point the girl started acting in an unfriendly manner to me. I put up with it for awhile and then I simply lost my respect for her as a friend an as a person. I decided not to confront her on this because I didn't want her to have an unpleasant working experience, but every time I see her I am cold and distant. I pretend to be friends, but in reality I'm the furthest from it. I don't talk to her and if she touches me with her hand I feel like breaking it off at the wrist. It's not that I don't like talking to her or spending time with her, she is a great and interesting person, I just lost all my respect for her and I feel bitter towards her. Perhaps if there was a way for my respect for her to be restored I can start making ground back to being a friend. But UNTIL then, no amount of us spending time together is going to fix our friendship.

It sounds to me like he suffers from depression. Second, he's probably an alcoholic, if he's sitting around drinking beer every night and all weekend. The alcoholism, obviously, will make the depression even worse. His actions are clearly causing you to be depressed (thinking about suicide). You need to get out, unfortunately, it's the only way for you to start feeling better.

I agree that it sounds like he may have alcohol issues. I would also like to point out that your expectations may be unrealistic considering how long you've been married, especially if he has alcohol issues (which BTW, would also explain the lack of a sex life). I say this because you are comparing a man who has been married for 12+ years to a man who was once a newlywed. That isn't realistic. I bet he thinks you are a nag. I may have missed it, but did you say you have other interests that keep you busy? You may be depending too heavily on him to "fill you up".

very insightful Mishanya! i've never heard of the story about the two frogs..but im glad i have now.

::cracks knuckles::

Here's your menput.

You aren't exciting anymore. We like the allure of the new (as I'm sure that you ladies do as well) but he's got you and you don't seem to be going anywhere. As a matter of fact, life is normal to him and with all of your needing to "talk" about his behavior it genuinely appears to him as if you are causing problems because in his mind there are none. Everything is content. He does not understand the need for marriage counseling if HE isn't angry or HE doesn't feel neglected and HIS basic needs are being met.

You can try wild and crazy techniques such as cleaning house naked or bringing some new things into the bedroom. When all else fails, stop meeting his needs. Stop cooking. Wake him up. That is what this comes down to, he's fallen into dormant stage (and we will ALL do this if allowed to) and must be explosively removed from it. Sometimes that takes something drastic like you packing your things and leaving and us finally taking inventory of all you brought to the picture and how you enriched our lives. I personally don't think counseling is going to help you much because while the counselor sits there and says "Mr. X, communication is vital to the health of...." he's thinking about a peanut butter sandwich becasue he doesn't see how the counseling is necessary.

If you don't do something drastic, these things will continue and merely talking it out with him is not going to work. Obviously, this is doing NOTHING. But don't commit suicide. That's a little too drastic. Best of luck to you.

Oh, and I don't know if anyone has mentioned this or not, but have you considered the fact that your husband may be depressed? That would explain his lack of interest in virtually everything. Some good medication and his behavior may very well improve.

Looks like the OP is gone. Apparently she "can't be bothered" to check her thread any more.

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Originally Posted by ExpoNovak [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

When all else fails, stop meeting his needs. Stop cooking. Wake him up. That is what this comes down to, he's fallen into dormant stage (and we will ALL do this if allowed to) and must be explosively removed from it. Sometimes that takes something drastic like you packing your things and leaving and us finally taking inventory of all you brought to the picture and how you enriched our lives. I personally don't think counseling is going to help you much because while the counselor sits there and says "Mr. X, communication is vital to the health of...." he's thinking about a peanut butter sandwich becasue he doesn't see how the counseling is necessary.

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This makes a lot of sense.

However negative reinforcement can go either way, it can push him to realize he needs the partner back OR make it easier for relationship to crash and burn.

I personally believe negative reinforcement in relationships is ill advised