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Let's imagine we can rewind time. Suppose that 10 min. ago you made the conscious decision to raise your arm. If we went backwards to that exact point in time when you made the decision to raise your arm, do you believe you would make the same choice again given that every condition leading up to that moment is exactly the same? Yes or no? Also explain why.
You would always raise your arm exactly the same way assuming you didn't keep any memories while going back to that moment. If you raised your arm different you never raised it the other way and in reality you where gonna raise that arm that way anyway.
I think there's a difference between acts of reason and somewhat random acts. So yes, I think that I would raise the hand if I did it for a reason (hailing a cab, grabbing a teacup from the top shelf e.t.c) but not if I did it just for the hell of it. Can't tell why I would raise my hand for no reason though :P
Or something.
I have never heard of any act done for no reason....EVER.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lipp [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Yep, so essentially we always do things for a reason (more or less), and the reason stays the same if the conditions and our mindset is the same. Or?
[All opinion that is mine:]Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeminole [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Yes, if every condition is the same up to that point, then so is the condition of you deciding to make a choice, and you would be the same person so the result of the choice in those specific circumstances would be the same.
But that means nothing about our free will.
I believe we have complete free will.
As we can at any point end our own lives, how much more free will is there?
When a person decides to end his or her own life is it really that person's decision or is it a result of mental illness, chemical imbalances, negative stimuli, etc.?Quote:
Originally Posted by excowho [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I'm not sure that's a good proof for free will.
A person's decision remains, its just altered by "mental illness, chemical imbalances, negative stimuli, etc.", I don't see how the two are exclusive to one another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrodingers_cat[/url]
Does it? Or do we all have a breaking point? A point at which there is too much interference. When a man finally takes that hop off the ledge did he really have a choice? Sure, you can say there are plenty of men who back down. But did they really have a choice?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lipp [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
It takes something powerful to overwrite the instinctive will to live. People call suicide a cowardly act but that's a load of bull. Once something has stripped a man of that most primal instinct is he really calling the shots anymore? And if that instinct hasn't been fully suppressed can a man really decide to take his own life?
I agree somewhat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku[/url]
excowho says:
"Yes, if every condition is the same up to that point, then so is the condition of you deciding to make a choice, and you would be the same person so the result of the choice in those specific circumstances would be the same.
But that means nothing about our free will. I believe we have complete free will. As we can at any point end our own lives, how much more free will is there?"
so you are saying you do believe you would make the same choice again? If this is true, then how is free will possible if the same set of conditions always lead to the same outcome? You have no choice but to follow a specific path.
Well if you're going back in time, then the conditions are a known variable that can no longer be changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeminole [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
However if thinking about the future the conditions are yet to be set and can be effected by every decision, through free will, you make.
I can't argue whether or not predetermined fate is how our lives are lived, and I can't argue that free will exists. As there is no solid proof for either, sort of like religion and science.
However I feel in my life that I have full control over it, and I feel like I control my decisions, so if it is predetermined, I don't notice it.
As for the killing yourself statement, I wasn't specifically regarding to suicidal people, I was referring to everyone. I wasn't saying "Ya! lets go do it!", I was just saying that it wouldn't be hard if we truly wanted, even though it goes against all fundamentals of life.
On a more serious note, I love radiohead, and am currently listening to "High and Dry".
That's what I don't agree with. I think it's incredibly hard, even if you're dead set on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by excowho [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
At that exact moment I would raise my hand, yes. If I don't remember going back in time, there should be no reason not to, unless the going back in time action influenced some other actions that affected my will.
Read Fear for Freedom and you will find your answer.
IndiReloaded says:
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrodingers_cat"
I don't see a "yes" or "no" or an explanation why. No offense but if you are incapable of answering in your own words, then don't bother posting in here.
Tedel says:
"Read Fear for Freedom and you will find your answer."
or you can paraphrase what it says assuming you understood the material.
That would depend a lot on internal and external circumstances. If we are dealing with going back to the past we must assume alternative events that can influence history. Say if 10 minutes ago a fire alarm was tripped and your office had to be evacuated, you most likely would be doing other things instead of raising your arm. Likewise alternative internal events will influence your actions. If you suddenly felt hungry 10 minutes ago, you'd most likely go out looking for food instead of raising your arm. At the end of the day, our emotions guide our behaviour more than our conscious mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeminole [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Just like you though, I question how much free will we really have. We do have it, because we can consciously influence our actions. But how much of it is already pre-programmed remains a mystery. There seems to be some sort of an internal motivator that we follow, a kind of a genetic map (maybe) that guides our actions. It guides us to important things in life I think, like when it's time to leave home, when it's time to establish ourselves in the real world, when it's time to reproduce etc...
Yours isn't a 'yes' or 'no' type question. Its a hypothetical 'maybe' type question.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeminole [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Anyway, my answer is 'maybe'. Even if we could time travel, we wouldn't be able to reproduce the *exact* same conditions at that same moment in time. There is always randomness in the system that can have unknown effects.
IMO, perhaps 99% of the time, given the same conditions, that person will raise their hand. But there is always that chance something will be different such that they won't.
NOW, go and read about Schrodinger's Cat. Hope that helps.
OK, the main point is that we make our decisions because we have learnt codes and behaviour habits along our lives. Taking that into account, our free-will is just conditioned to what we learnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeminole [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
But what if we learn to think by ourselves? Artists (like me) do that easily, but what about the rest of us? Most people are afraid of being free because they know that making their own decisions make them solely responsible for bearing the consequences. To avoid this, they prefer to cling to something: follow a leader, a habit, a tradition, rules... etc.